Sempron 754 vs Athlon XP Mobile Combo

[irenealan]

Hi, I am planning to build a system with either the Sempron 2600+ socket 754 w/ MSI K8M Neo-V motherboard or the Athlon XP Mobile 2200+ w/ MSI K7N2GM-V motherboard. Wonder which one would run better in stock and which one will run faster when moderately overclocked? Since I never OC a socket 754 CPU before, don't know how good will it OC and how much can I OC!

Though I don't plan on playing much games, wonder if the MSI K7N2GM-V w/ NV18 GPU would outperform much from the UniChrome? Pro IGP of the MSI K8M Neo V? I understand NV18 is basically the Geforce MX440 GPU but I have no experience with UniChrome? Pro IGP and wonder if it's comparable?

Thanks very much for all the help!

 

[imported_llama]

the 754 will kill the AXP at stock without a doubt

 

[DrMrLordX]

A few of thoughts for the OP:

1). If you're seriously considering overclocking, you may want to rethink your choice of motherboard. The DFI Lanparty is the best overall OC board out there. You may also want to investigate some of the newer Nforce4-based socket 754 motherboards. I know very little about them. I myself run a socket 754 Sempron 2800+ on a Chaintech vnf3-250, while some others swear by the Epox Nforce3 board.

2). I would not even consider gaming using an integrated graphics chipset. One might perform better than the other, but the overall level of performance will be so low that it will amount to a major system bottleneck compared to your OCed Sempron or moble AXP.

At least look into getting something like a GeForce 4 ti 4200. It will blow any integrated graphics chip out of the water, and is still fairly useful in modern games if you turn the settings down. Last time I checked, ti 4200s could be had for around $60, which ain't too expensive. Be sure to get the 128-meg version if you do get one.

All that aside, if low cost is your ultimate goal, just snag the Sempron 2600+ plus board and call it a day.

 

[RussianSensation]

S754 - longer upgrade path. That alone is worth getting it over XP. You could always upgrade to A64 3700+ later; or later models of Sempron CPUs.

Now combine that with these great overclocking results => Sempron 2600+ 1.6ghz @ 2.5ghz and get a DFI LanParty NF3 250 board (for 300+ FSB), and there is never a need to look at an XP platform.

Benchmarks

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Yep, sktA is dead except when combined with Soundstorm for HTPC use. skt754 has everything else in its favor in the contest of bang for buck champ.

 

[sangyup81]

5-0 in favor of the s754

the reason why it's so much better is because the memory controller is integrated in the CPU drastically reducing CPU to RAM latency

the benchmarks prove it

 

[Quentin]

Well, I'll be the naysayer! Since Socket 754 is about as dead as Socket A, I'd take a good XP-M2600+ over a Socket 754 Sempron 2600+! (And my XP-2200+ overclocks about as well as my XP-M2600+s however odds are the 2600+ will go higher. I never tried any of them above 2.5GHz.) Also I'm assuming you already have the XP-M2200+.

I think the real decision here should come down to a Socket 939 board with a true Athlon 64.

 

[classy]

If your using the integrated video, I would say the XP Mobile system would be better definately.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: llama
the 754 will kill the AXP at stock without a doubt

 

[irenealan]

Thanks for all the help. Since I budget around $150 for the CPU and Motherboard combo, I may not afford a DFI board for the Sempron, a separate graphic card or even a A64 CPU.

Since I had experience OC a Mobile 2400+ to 2.4ghz, I am confident that I can OC a Mobile 2200+ to at least 2.2ghz or even more. The Mobile 2200+ w/ MSI K7N2GM-V board cost around $150 after CA tax.

I never had any experience with Sempron 2600+ Socket 754 and don't know if its stock speed will outperform a Mobile 2200+ @ 2.2ghz or higher. Also does anyone have experience OC the Sempron 2600+ with the MSI K8M board and how much can it moderately OC the chip?

Thanks for the help!

 

[sangyup81]

irenealan, why didn't you mention your budget before?

 

[irenealan]

sorry guys, I thought by giving the CPU and Motherboard spec, they would tell my budget is somewhere around $150. Anyway sorry for that!

So given my budget now, which combo should be better?

 

[Aenslead]

Originally posted by: Quentin
Well, I'll be the naysayer! Since Socket 754 is about as dead as Socket A, I'd take a good XP-M2600+ over a Socket 754 Sempron 2600+! (And my XP-2200+ overclocks about as well as my XP-M2600+s however odds are the 2600+ will go higher. I never tried any of them above 2.5GHz.) Also I'm assuming you already have the XP-M2200+.

I think the real decision here should come down to a Socket 939 board with a true Athlon 64.

I disagree. Roadmaps show that skt754 is here to stay. Enthusiasts and people who know chose skt939; however, system integrators, OEMs and people on a budget will no doubt be better with a skt754. The price/performance value of this plataform is unmatchable.

 

[sangyup81]

The socket 754 combo comes with a CPU Heatsink/Fan that can withstand moderate overclocking while the socket A combo does not. It's an extra $15 expense for the socket A.

From what I've read, the MSI Socket 754 mobo can do 235fsb to 240fsb. That'll translate into 1880mhz-1920mhz from 1600 stock.

If you were able to get a non integrated video Socket 754, you could probably do 2400-2500mhz with that same CPU.

Here's a review of the Sempron 2600+ http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/sempron-2600.html

 

[sangyup81]

Actually, you know what?

Given the lack of overclockablility in that s754 motherboard and the fact that you can get Dual Channel Memory on the socket A, it may actually be better to go for the socket A.

I said earlier that you need a new HS/Fan for the Socket A. I suggest this one: http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=FAN-7J74F&c=pw

 

[irenealan]

Thanks, I already have an extra HS for skt A CPU, that's why I did not factor in the cost. Though it's the the best HS but it's copper base so at least better than the AMD stock HSF.

But where do you see that the MSI Skt A motherboard support dual channel? I never find that! So within $150, the skt A option would be a better choice given the lack of OC capability of the MSI skt 754 board?

I really would like to spare more cash for the skt 754 but that means I need to spend at least $40 for a better board and some money for a video card. That at least raise my budget up $100!

What do you think?

 

[nemesismk2]

Here are a few reviews featuring different athlon xp and sempron processors:-

review features sempron 2200 v sempron 3100 v xp 3200 v xp 2500

review features sempron 3100 v athlon xp 3200 v athlon xp 2500

review features sempron 2800 v athlon xp 3200 v athlon xp 2500

 

[irenealan]

Thanks for the review links! Seems like if I don't play much games and only work with business applications, a mobile 2200+ OC to 2.2ghz may even outrun a stock Sempron 3100+ skt 754. I guess within my $150 budget, the skt A combo maybe the best choice for a non-gaming machine. But if I can get spare another $100 for the DFI board and an extra video card, then overclocking the Sempron 2600+ will definitely blow away the skt A combo in all aspect! Thanks for the help!

Also can someone tell me base on reading this page, does it mean that the MSI board support dual channel? I could figure that out, thanks for the help!

 

[Aenslead]

No. This motherboard does not support Dual Channel. Its the nForce 2 IGP non-Ultra version, which only supports 64bit mode memory.

 

[Aenslead]

Originally posted by: sangyup81
Actually, you know what?

Given the lack of overclockablility in that s754 motherboard and the fact that you can get Dual Channel Memory on the socket A, it may actually be better to go for the socket A.

I said earlier that you need a new HS/Fan for the Socket A. I suggest this one: http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=FAN-7J74F&c=pw

You are VERY wrong. There are endless reports of skt754 OC's that range from 260-300Mhz FSB with propper cooling. Also, Dual Channel memory does very little for overall speed, specially on an AXP plataform.

irenealan:
You are much, much better off with a Skt754 plataform. There are several motherboards with integrated video using SiS 760GX chipset and VIA's K8M800 chipsets which perform much better than any SktA solution. Good luck.

 

[Quentin]

Irene, I looked at that link and suspect the K7N2GM-V is not dual channel. Also, looking at MSI's Socket A forum this board seems new and unknown. Looks like trouble, I fear.
http://forum.msi.com.tw/index.php?PHPSE...df95ff13ab7626502eb6f127e0b&board=13.0

And looking at the last review at Newegg, the BIOS doesn't let you change the multiplier or vCore which will hinder overclocking, especially a mobile XP which defaults to a multiplier of 6 initially (in most desktop motherboards). However, that can be overcome using a wire trick/pin mod.
http://secure.newegg.com/app/CustratingReview.asp?DEPA=1&item=13-130-488

Personally, I don't care for this board but then I like the full ATX form factor while I guess you're looking for something small. I will warn you though that small usually means "compromise" and "Gotcha!", too.

It might be best to come back with exactly what you want this system to do and see what suggestions come from us "system builders"! Maybe even a large laptop is the way to go. (Weren't you building a small Epox HT system a while back? Did that not work out and is this a replacement for that? And can you salvage that project if it's hit an empass?)

I love my Socket A systems but they were built in 2003 so aren't state of the art. However with an upgrade last year to XP mobiles they will allow me to skip the Socket 754 generation. I see that as a small stepping stone on the way to what I'll want in a year or so. If I were building a system today it certainly would be a full ATX Socket 939 system with a true A64. You can get fairly small enclosures that accomodate an ATX board and that might be the best way to go unless your application really requires "tiny". I realize that may be more expensive but you do want this thing to work! A compromised motherboard usually is false economy. And small plus the word overclock usually equals "too hot".

Don't mean to burst any baloons but just thinking of problems that would worry me.

 

[irenealan]

Thanks Quentin for your help as I remember you help me built the HTPC also. Actually the HTPC worked out fine and the system run at 2.2ghz now with 40C. I am happy with it though it's not quiet. I spent quite sometime playing with it and now I just need a fan speed controller to lower the fan speed (hence the noice) when the system isn't running too hot. Thanks everyone who help me built the baby.

Back to my question, the reason I am building this system is my old system's motherboard failed and I had just installed a new DVD burner and hard drive on it. Hence I want to spend the least possible to get the system back up and running. With my HTPC experience, I am confident to get a mobile Athlon and set it up at good speed. However, since this time I am not limited to building a skt A system (my HTPC barebone only support skt A), I would like to explore the skt 754 path and see if it would give me better performance within the same budget. I mostly use the system for business office applications, internet, photo viewing editing, downloading, burning CDs DVDs and maybe encoding video. Thus video card is not a concern since I won't be playing any game. But I need at least decent graphics for viewing and editing photos and videos.

As Quentin pointed up, seems like the board I mentioned for the skt A system won't support dual channel and it won't allow multiplier changing. So I guess it's difficult for me to get the system combo around $150. Wonder if there's a specific IGP motherboard someone would suggest to pair with either a skt A or a skt 754 cpu. It would be nice if it contains the OC functionality and I am willing to raising my budget more since I understand it's difficult to get a board with all such functionalities in a low price. It's that Quentin pointed up the MSI board is bad or else I would have bought it for its low price! Thanks!

 

[Quentin]

Too bad your desktop gave out, Irene. No hope to revive it? If not, then I withdraw my resistance to Sempron 754. (It would be nice to go A64 but) this platform will do as a replacement for what you had.

Just quickly looking at Newegg's selection, the Sempron 2600+ with the new 90nm core looks tempting at about $78. These new cores should run much cooler than the old 130nm Paris cores. But unlike the XP-M you're used to, these things have locked multipliers so the 2600+'s 8x multi would limit a big overclock. I see there is the new 90nm 2800+ with a multiplier of 9 and cost of $89. Guess it depends on your RAM now and how the dividers are set. Other than those observations I really can't help much here since I don't know much about Sempron.

I hope I haven't derailed you and hopefully others who have Semprons can help! Especially anybody have opinions on the new Palermo core vs Paris?

 

[Zap]

Both mATX boards would not be too overclockable on their own. The s754 board doesn't have an AGP lock. The mobile Athlons can be overclocked on non-overclockable motherboards (I've done this) but not without a lot of work, planning and pre-testing on an overclockable motherboard to find the limits of the CPU.

Let me respond to various things said throughout this thread:

"Wonder which one would run better in stock and which one will run faster when moderately overclocked?"
I'd dare say that the s754 would win in both cases when paired with the respective motherboards mentioned. In fact, if the sA board doesn't have multiplier adjustments the mobile Athlon would just be working at 6x multiplier unless you do a wire mod.

"You are VERY wrong. There are endless reports of skt754 OC's that range from 260-300Mhz FSB with propper cooling."
You are VERY right... except for the fact that the board she listed is NOT what everyone else is using for those huge overclocks. It's like saying "there are endless reports of cars going from 0-60MPH in under 7 seconds." Sure there are, but that doesn't mean the econobox or minivan you just bought will do anywhere near that.

"I mostly use the system for business office applications, internet, photo viewing editing, downloading, burning CDs DVDs and maybe encoding video. Thus video card is not a concern since I won't be playing any game. But I need at least decent graphics for viewing and editing photos and videos."
Integrated video would be fine. Ignore the video card fanatics. I have a friend who is one. He even insists that machines he builds for family have capable 3D graphics even if he knows for a fact that they would only use it for web browsing and such. It seriously is like a compulsion for him.

"I am happy with it though it's not quiet. I spent quite sometime playing with it and now I just need a fan speed controller to lower the fan speed (hence the noice) when the system isn't running too hot."
Socket 754 chips should run cooler, meaning quieter fans.

Two questions for Irene:
1) Are you limited to the maTX form factor or does your case allow for standard ATX?
2) How "fixed" is that $150 budget? Not talking about doubling the cost, but is $20 more doable? Is $40 more doable?

If the answer to #1 is no and the answer to #2 is "not really" then I have some suggestions for you.

EPOX "EP-8KDA3I" $65.75 plus $1 shipping
I have this board and it is definately good for around 280MHz HTT, maybe as much as 300MHz (haven't lowered multiplier yet so don't know if I'm CPU or mobo limited). Sure, the DFI will spank it at 300-320MHz, but that $40 more can pay for a better CPU to begin with.

The board plus a retail Sempron 2600+ will cost just under $150 shipped (before tax, if applicable) and get you over 2.2GHz on an overclock with a nice, relatively quiet retail box HSF. The 2800+ just has more cache, not higher clock/mult.

How about just under $170? Add $20 for a 3000+ that has the higher 9x multiplier, giving you around 2.5GHz. I think at this point most people would realize that even socket A mobile Athlons start running out of breath. If both reach a 2.5GHz true clock speed, I'm putting my two dollars (Better Off Dead, LOL) on the socket 754 system.

How about just under $190? Add $40 for an A64 2800+ (make sure to get the "AX" one) that is just like the Sempron 3000+ except has quadruple the cache and 64 bit capability. Who doubts the performance of an Athlon 64 CPU running at a true clock speed of 2.5GHz or higher? This is the exact combo I have, the "AX" 2800+ and the linked Epox board. At 278MHz HTT for a true 2.5GHz the setup works nice and stable. At 300MHz HTT for a true 2.7GHz, Windows will BSOD. Haven't had time to find the exact limit of the setup, but 2.5GHz is nice for $190.

Only potential flaw in the pricing is added cost for a video card. Did your burnt-out motherboard use integrated video or did it have an AGP/PCI card that can be re-used? If no card, you can get a used low-end card for pretty cheap, just make sure that they are PCI or true AGP 4x/8x, or that they use 1.5v so you don't burn out the AGP slot. Brand new AGP cards with minor 3D gaming capabilities are available for under $30.

 

[Quentin]

Thanks for that excellent information, Zap! I certainly agree. I'm not a fanatic on Socket A, just saying it can be good enough for a while if that's what you've already got. I don't like to recommend anyone buy or build a new SA system today but upgrading an existing motherboard to XP-M can be a reasonable alternative for a while. For me the cost was low as I sold my old XP processors to recover most of the expense.

Irene, Zap and I and almost everyone recommend a full size ATX motherboard. I must caution you that "falling in love" with a small case limits how good your system will end up. There are very nice mid-tower cases available that accept full ATX and have decent cooling as well.

One of my systems had a cramped, cheap COMPUSA case with cooling problems and interference between long 5.25" optical drives and tall components on the motherboard. I hated that case for two years and finally replaced it when COMPUSA had the Antec Super LANBoy on sale for $40 after mail in rebate. This was an excellent upgrade and the two 120mm fans solved the cooling problem (and are quiet - big fans spin slow and quiet)! If you will be overclocking it really makes sense to go full ATX and take advantage of the wider selection of motherboards and better cooling. And hopefully you'll have a stylish case as well!

Glad to hear your little HTPC turned out well. I'm sure it looks great and it sounds like an exception to the rule big is better (other than the loud small fan which you are about to solve). Good job!

Good luck on your new project, Irene. Hope we haven't bombarded you with too much info!