Seeking "voice of experience" on selecting RAM for new rig

ilovit

Junior Member
Feb 26, 2006
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I'm in the process of planning a new rig, primarily to run VMware images and rip/burn DVD?s, and secondarily for Office, email, and web browsing. Although not much of a gamer, I also want the option to ?experiment? with Quake 4 and Battlefield 2, at fairly high resolutions and frame rates. I?ve read through the "Overclocking X2 3800 vs Opteron 165" debates online, and have concluded the best choice is the Opteron 165 (if you have an extremely authoritative argument for the X2 3800, I'm open to hearing it, as I haven't purchased the CPU yet).

Based on the above criteria, I've selected the following:

CASE - Antec P180 (shooting for cool and quiet)
MOBO - ABIT KN8-SLI (never going to use SLI, just a GREAT DEAL on the mobo)
CPU - Opteron 165
GPU - eVGA 6800GS 256-P2-N391-AX
HD - Seagate 7200.0 160GB x 2 RAID 1 (want redundancy, 5 year wtty)
DVD-RW - BenQ 1655
PSU - Antec SmartPower 2.0 500w
OS - Windows XP Pro SP2

That leaves the RAM. I?ve tried reading as much as I can online on the subject of what RAM to go with, but I don?t know enough about the subject and there are so many different opinions, ranging from ?get value RAM and run it on a divider because there?s virtually no performance lost and it?s not worth the extra cost to go with high performance RAM? to ?if you?re going to overclock, get some good RAM with heatspreaders and very low timings?. Then there?s the debate of whether it?s good enough to use PC3200 with a divider or if it?s more ideal and therefore better to use faster RAM (i.e. PC4000 at 1:1 at 250Mhz) and increasing CAS. As such, it?s unclear which approach will result in the best possible outcome.

Not possessing the knowledge or experience to make this decision on my own with great confidence, I?m seeking advice from someone with substantial system building experience on what RAM to purchase, and rationale for your recommendation, taking into consideration the initial plan is to run everything at default speeds (to make sure the system is stable) for a few weeks, then overclock the Opteron 165 to 2.5GHz+ (preferably using the stock HSF, unless CPU temps dictate something better).

I?m thinking 4GB DDR (4 x 1GB), but apparently populating all 4 DIMM sockets results in the memory running slower. Is there a way around this? If not, how noticeable would the difference in speed be? If it?s significant, should I consider just being content with using 2GB DDR (2 x 1GB)?

Whether value or ?high performance? RAM, with no allegiance to a particular brand, I?m just looking for the best possible advice, and a better understanding of what I need to know to make the most informed decision. Thank you in advance.
 

strummer

Senior member
Feb 1, 2006
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Unless you have some specific requirement, I don't know why you would need 4 Gigs of RAM at this time. Personally, I would buy 2 - 1 Gig sticks, and upgrade that video card to a 7800 GT or even maybe a 7800 GTX.

I think you want the heat spreaders on the sticks, although I'll let others comment on the DDR500 vs. DDR400 question.
 

imported_Seer

Senior member
Jan 4, 2006
309
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4 Gigs of RAM is extremely excessive. Im not sure what to tell you on the value vs. enthusiast RAM debate.
 

ilovit

Junior Member
Feb 26, 2006
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Thanks for your comment. I'm looking for 4GB because the primary purpose of this machine is to concurrently run 3 rather large VMware images.

The 6800GS I'm considering goes for $174 after rebate. The lowest priced 7800GT on newegg is nearly $100 more than that. Playing games is neither the primary nor secondary purpose of this machine, but should I choose to, everything I've read about the 6800GS suggests it would be capable of fairly high resolutions and frame rates.
 

Dadofamunky

Platinum Member
Jan 4, 2005
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I would go for a different video card; probably a 7800GT would be the best compromise between performance and price. I would also start out with 2 GB of RAM, because you can always scale it upwards later. This will save the money that can be put towards a more future-proof card. The 6800 is obsolete.

The best memory makers tend to be OCZ, G.Skill and Crucial, with Patriot also in the mix. Get low-latency PC3200 RAM; don't bother with the PC4000 or PC4400 stuff. You pay more for that but don't always get much benefit.

Also, I would not get the ABIT board. The problem with a good deal on a motherboard is that sometimes you get what you pay for. A bad mobo (and Abit is not widely considered among the better makers) can make your life miserable. Take it from someone who knows. Asus is probably your best bet.

Finally, to safeguard your investment, get a PC Power and Cooling power supply to put into the case. DO NOT TRUST ANTEC POWER SUPPLIES! I bought two different current Antec PSs and they fried my motherboard both times. No one else makes 'em better than PCP&C.

If you want to stick with everything else you already chose, get a better motherboard and power supply. Those two things are the backbone of your system and you really shouldn't cheap out on them.
 

5t3v0

Senior member
Dec 22, 2005
508
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Opteron 165 has x9 multipier so to get 2.5GHz means running a 280MHz HTT. I'd think it extremely unlikely you'll get 4Gb running 1:1 at that speed, 2x1Gb possibly if using PC4000. To be honest, there would be absolutely no point in buying 4Gb at this time, 2Gb is more than enough. Assuming you get your desired 2.5GHz, you have 2 options, first to use the 166 memory divider and run the RAM at 229MHz, or second use the 133 divider and run at 180MHz. Clearly the latter isnt a very attractive option as you'd be under utilising the RAM. So going with option 1, you then have 2 choices, first to buy PC3200 and overclock to 229MHz, possibly with looser timings, or second to buy PC4000 and underclock but possibly tighten timings. Overclocking 2x1Gb is much more hit or miss than with 2x512Mb so you could fail to get this overclock depending on the kit you bought. I had this exact dilema and went with PC4000 because I didnt want to take the risk and end up having to run RAM at 180MHz which would have been a big drop in performance from my previous 1Gb kit. Why not get a DFI board as these give you more memory divider options? The 180 divider would allow you to run PC4000 memory at stock speed. That's what I would have done in hind sight. So my recommendation is a DFI LanParty mobo and 2 x 1Gb of PC4000 (e.g. Corsair XMS, G.Skill HZ or OCZ Platinum).
 

5t3v0

Senior member
Dec 22, 2005
508
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Originally posted by: Dadofamunky
The best memory makers tend to be OCZ, G.Skill and Crucial, with Patriot also in the mix. Get low-latency PC3200 RAM; don't bother with the PC4000 or PC4400 stuff. You pay more for that but don't always get much benefit.

Not true, the G.Skill HZ (PC4000) were cheaper than the ZX (low latency PC3200) when I bought them. PC4000 is guaranteed to go to 250MHz so takes the lottery out of overclocking PC3200. Some people are even getting PC4000 up to 275-280MHz. Get PC4000, the higher speed more than makes up for the looser timings. Chances are you'd have to loosen timings on PC3200 anyways to overclock so the latency advantage becomes irrelevant.

EDIT: Is anyone making PC4400 in 1Gb sticks? I've never seen any.
 

ilovit

Junior Member
Feb 26, 2006
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The PC Power & Cooling PSU 510w model is priced at 3 times that of the Antec SmartPower 2.0 500w (3 yr warranty). I reviewed the specs on their website, and the specifications are impressive. Given it's high rating and 5 year warranty, even though it takes me a little above budget, as Dadofamunky points out, it's the backbone of the system.

As for motherboards, the obvious choice seemed to be ASUS, and I had initially planned on going with the ASUS A8N-SLI Premium. Then I did a search on Google on "ASUS A8N-SLI Premium + memory", and was very surprised by the large number of posts complaining about problems getting memory to work with that board. Given their "reputation", up to that point I was under the assumption it would be the best compromise of quality, features, and price. Needless to say, I didn't order it. Perhaps not justified, it left me skeptical of any of the currently available ASUS motherboards. After all, this was their "Premium" SLI motherboard. Short of going with their most expensive motherboard, the A8N32-SLI Deluxe, which one has the least number of issues?

After searching the internet, there seem to be significantly less posts for problems with any of the nVidia4 SLI motherboards made by ABIT over the past year, which has me wondering if perhaps ABIT has an undeserved negative perception. I'm inclined to believe ABIT has been taking it on the chin while producing some very stable, quality products. Perhaps other forum members can comment on this.

5t3v0, given the Opteron 165 has a x9 multiplier and getting it to 2.5GHz would require running a 280MHz HTT, is there anything to be gained by going with the X2 3800, which if I'm not mistaken, has a x10 multiplier, and therefore could achieve 2.5GHz running a 250MHz HTT (that would also be 1:1, yes?)?

Whether one or the other CPU, to avoid any disappointment, I'm going with your advice to get the PC4000 and "take the lottery" out of overclocking PC3200. I want to get it right the first time. If I'm not mistaken, this also means I probably won't have to raise the voltage to get the CPU to 2.5GHz. I'll definitely give consideration to the DFI LanParty series if that's what it takes to achieve my objective.

Newegg's four lowest priced name brand 2GB (2x1GB) 184-pin DDR500 SDRAM Unbuffered Dual Channel Kits are as follows:

Mushkin eXtreme Performance 2GB 184-pin DDR500 SDRAM Unbuffered Dual Channel
Cas Latency 3, Timing 3-4-3-8, Voltage 2.8v
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820146397

OCZ Gold Edition 2GB 184-pin DDR500 SDRAM Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit
Cas Latency 3, Timing 3-4-3-8, Voltage 2.8v
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820227219

OCZ Gold GX 2GB 184-pin DDR500 SDRAM Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit
Cas Latency 3, Timing 3-4-3-8, Voltage 2.75v
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820227066

G.SKILL Extreme Series 2GB 184-pin DDR500 SDRAM Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit
Cas Latency 3, Timing 3-4-4-8, Voltage 2.6v-2.8v
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231021

All are Cas Latency 3, and Timing 3-4-3-8 (with the exception of the G.SKILL with Timing 3-4-4-8). The Mushkin eXtreme Performance and OCZ Gold Edition both have a voltage of 2.8v, whereas the OCZ Gold GX is 2.75v, and the G.SKILL is 2.6v-2.8v.

What should I know in order to apply that information to narrow down the decision?

Thank you both for the useful information received so far!
 

5t3v0

Senior member
Dec 22, 2005
508
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Having more multipliers certainly helps increase OC options but the smaller L2 cache on the X2 might hold VMware back a bit. The X2 is cheaper though. As for memory, the G.Skill is the cheapest & the slightly higher timing over the others wont make enough difference to pay another $40 for OCZ. G.Skill also run better on low voltage if that appeals to you.

Edit: Meant to say, at equivalent cpu speed, running memory 1:1 on a 250Mz HTT will be 21MHz faster than with the 166 divider on a 280Mz HTT which will increase performance if timings stay the same. However, if you can lower TCL & TRCD as result of underclocking PC4000, both could be roughly the same. I couldnt get stability lowering TCL to 2.5 at 229MHz, but I was able to lower TRP, TRCD & TRAS among others. My Sandra and Everest benchmarks are only marginally less than my previous 1Gb GeIL Value kit at the same frequency with 2.5-3-3-6 timings.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,665
765
126
Assuming you get your desired 2.5GHz, you have 2 options, first to use the 166 memory divider and run the RAM at 229MHz, or second use the 133 divider and run at 180MHz.

Some boards support a 150 divider, which will give 208mhz, something almost any memory can do. I know the DFI boards have 140, 150, 183 and several other intermediate dividers.
 

Dadofamunky

Platinum Member
Jan 4, 2005
2,184
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Originally posted by: 5t3v0
Originally posted by: Dadofamunky
The best memory makers tend to be OCZ, G.Skill and Crucial, with Patriot also in the mix. Get low-latency PC3200 RAM; don't bother with the PC4000 or PC4400 stuff. You pay more for that but don't always get much benefit.

Not true, the G.Skill HZ (PC4000) were cheaper than the ZX (low latency PC3200) when I bought them. PC4000 is guaranteed to go to 250MHz so takes the lottery out of overclocking PC3200. Some people are even getting PC4000 up to 275-280MHz. Get PC4000, the higher speed more than makes up for the looser timings. Chances are you'd have to loosen timings on PC3200 anyways to overclock so the latency advantage becomes irrelevant.

EDIT: Is anyone making PC4400 in 1Gb sticks? I've never seen any.

Well, maybe so, but it also depends on the mobo, the BIOS, the CPU (and its binning) and a lot of other factors. For example, PC4000 RAM is useless in my rig and typically you WILL pay a premium for faster RAM, whether it's lower letency or a faster DDR clock speed. Also, I don't notice him saying that he wanted to OC anyway. (Believe it or not, most people actually don't.) A lot of people OC just fine even using value PC3200 RAM, and many others frankly don't notice the difference. It's fun to overclock, but I think for most people PC4000 is overkill and doesn't offer much marginal benefit. Then again, I don't spend my time playing freakin' games, where every extra frame counts.
 

5t3v0

Senior member
Dec 22, 2005
508
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Originally posted by: Dadofamunky
Well, maybe so, but it also depends on the mobo, the BIOS, the CPU (and its binning) and a lot of other factors. For example, PC4000 RAM is useless in my rig and typically you WILL pay a premium for faster RAM, whether it's lower letency or a faster DDR clock speed. Also, I don't notice him saying that he wanted to OC anyway. (Believe it or not, most people actually don't.) A lot of people OC just fine even using value PC3200 RAM, and many others frankly don't notice the difference. It's fun to overclock, but I think for most people PC4000 is overkill and doesn't offer much marginal benefit. Then again, I don't spend my time playing freakin' games, where every extra frame counts.

He states in his first post that he wants to try getting the 165 to 2.5GHz. This was why I suggested PC4000. If you dont have ram that can support a 1:1 or 5:6 divider on a 280 HTT , then you have to drop down to the 2:3 divider which means a memory speed of 180MHz. That's wasted bandwidth & lost performance, not to mention just plain boring overclocking. If you have the cash, why not spend the extra $50 & get something that can do 229MHz or even 280MHz.

Of course its all down to personal preference. If you're a bang for buck sort of person, then use cheap memory & a lower divider. If you're a max speed freak with cash, then get the fastest ram with the tightest timings and run 1:1. If like me you're an in between sort of guy, get a half decent kit & have some fun with it.