Seeking Recommendations for a quality AIO

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
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I'm getting ready to build several gaming machines, based on my current set up (7700K oc'd to 4.8ghz, GTX 1080Ti, 500 GB Samsung Pro NVME, Phanteks Enthoo Evolv case, etc) To cool my CPU, I installed an Alphacool Eisbaer AIO. I'm happy with it's performance, and was planning to use it for the new builds, but the pump has started to rattle. Upon further reading, I've noticed that this seems to be a real problem with these coolers. One of the reasons I chose this AIO, is their use of copper radiators. I also like the fact that they are expandable. After looking at other options, I have noticed that the majority are using copper base plates with aluminum radiators, which I think can be a recipe for disaster.

Can anyone recommend a good quality AIO that doesn't mix metals. I would prefer it be expandable, but it's not necessary. I don't have the time to design and install custom loops, nor will I be around these rigs to maintain custom loops.

Thanks.
 

XavierMace

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2013
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The good majority of AIO's are just rebranded Asetek's, so you're not going to have much luck.

That said, I'm not sure what you think the issue is with mixing metals in this case. We've been mixing metals on CPU cooling for many, many years. You didn't state how old your pump is, but anything with moving parts is going to fail eventually. I've got multiple AIO's that are past the 3 year mark.
 

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
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The good majority of AIO's are just rebranded Asetek's, so you're not going to have much luck.

That said, I'm not sure what you think the issue is with mixing metals in this case. We've been mixing metals on CPU cooling for many, many years. You didn't state how old your pump is, but anything with moving parts is going to fail eventually. I've got multiple AIO's that are past the 3 year mark.

My issue is with galvanic corrosion. I built my rig this past November, so the pump is just a few weeks old.
 

Lovec1990

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Feb 6, 2017
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What about Noctua NH-D15 it can cool anything AIO can plus its cheaper,more reliable and its maintance free?
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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What about Noctua NH-D15 it can cool anything AIO can plus its cheaper,more reliable and its maintance free?
Noctua builds good coolers, and no doubt about it. But there is one cooler that edges out the D15 by about 1 or 2C, and hogs less space-in-the-case: the ThermalRight Le Grand Macho.

I more or less agonized over the question of using "customizable" AIO versus heatpipes when I built my Skylake. I can beat the performance of an external dual-fan EXOS by delid-CLU-relidding the processor and then installing the LGM Macho.

But the next system I build? I think I'll give a look to the new EKWB "custom-AIO" kits. Somebody started a thread recently on these . . . .

EKWB Phoenix
 

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
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What about Noctua NH-D15 it can cool anything AIO can plus its cheaper,more reliable and its maintance free?

Can they handle an oc'd 7700K? I'm hesitant to go with a large air cooler because these computers will be shipped via UPS. I don't know how well they'll handle getting tossed around. I've always been an "Air Cooled" builder. This is my first time in many years trying out water.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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Can they handle an oc'd 7700K? I'm hesitant to go with a large air cooler because these computers will be shipped via UPS. I don't know how well they'll handle getting tossed around. I've always been an "Air Cooled" builder. This is my first time in many years trying out water.
See my post. My verdict is "Sure it can," if you relid the processor with CLU. But I'd pick the slightly lighter-weight ThermalRight LGM.

On my re-lidded 6700K, I can run affinitized LinX with AVX -- max memory and problem size -- with the peak package temperature topping out around 78C, overclocked to 4.7Ghz.

Enlighten or remind me: would not a re-lidded 7700K run a tad cooler than the Skylake?

But back to your question about shipping. I'd be inclined to install the cooler mount, but ship the cooler to be installed with the two screws and thermal paste by the user. With the LGM, you wouldn't need to hang a fan on the cooler; it would instead be ducted (accordion rubber duct = $10) to the rear exhaust fan. It DOES weigh about 920 grams. If attached, I'd still be inclined to put some sort of cardboard inserts inside the case to give more support to the cooler.
 

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
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See my post. My verdict is "Sure it can," if you relid the processor with CLU. But I'd pick the slightly lighter-weight ThermalRight LGM.

On my re-lidded 6700K, I can run affinitized LinX with AVX -- max memory and problem size -- with the peak package temperature topping out around 78C, overclocked to 4.7Ghz.

Enlighten or remind me: would not a re-lidded 7700K run a tad cooler than the Skylake?

But back to your question about shipping. I'd be inclined to install the cooler mount, but ship the cooler to be installed with the two screws and thermal paste by the user. With the LGM, you wouldn't need to hang a fan on the cooler; it would instead be ducted (accordion rubber duct = $10) to the rear exhaust fan. It DOES weigh about 920 grams. If attached, I'd still be inclined to put some sort of cardboard inserts inside the case to give more support to the cooler.

Therein lies my problem. I'll be building several, so I don't want to waste time de-lidding. It's going to people who do graphics/gaming, but don't know squat about hardware, so having them install the CPU cooler is a no go. Especially if I'll be hundreds of miles away. This is why I was thinking of a reliable AIO. Much easier to ship, will cool the CPU well and looks nicer in a case with glass sides.

I'm not sure if a re-lidded 7700K will run cooler than a Skylake. Right now I'm running a normal 7700K at 4.8Ghz. While running Prime, it'll peak at 70C for brief periods (while fans ramp up), but will maintain at around 65C. Under normal operation, it runs at around 25C. This is with the Eisbaer 240 AIO.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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Therein lies my problem. I'll be building several, so I don't want to waste time de-lidding. It's going to people who do graphics/gaming, but don't know squat about hardware, so having them install the CPU cooler is a no go. Especially if I'll be hundreds of miles away. This is why I was thinking of a reliable AIO. Much easier to ship, will cool the CPU well and looks nicer in a case with glass sides.

I'm not sure if a re-lidded 7700K will run cooler than a Skylake. Right now I'm running a normal 7700K at 4.8Ghz. While running Prime, it'll peak at 70C for brief periods (while fans ramp up), but will maintain at around 65C. Under normal operation, it runs at around 25C. This is with the Eisbaer 240 AIO.

Interesting. Kaby Lake K, running Prime95 with AVX? Which test? small-FFT? 4.8 is not the top end for that CPU, as I understand it, even for a beefy heatpipe cooler.

I was also interested in the AlphaCool Eisbauer 240 for your mention of it. One Tweaktown performance review comparison shows it neck-and-neck with the Noctua D15. If those numbers are perfectly accurate, my LGM still has a sliver of advantage. But there's bound to be some range of variation in lab test results, so that isn't of much consequence.

But let's look again at the prospects for shipping. Your old Intel spec from a decade earlier and before was about 450 grams for a cooler. 920 grams still shouldn't make a hilla-beans difference. Nor would there be much torque from an LGM cooler -- a good part of the 920 grams would be close to the motherboard. So as I said, if you install the rear accordion duct for the LGM, you might think that even a single cardboard panel inserted in the case to stabilize the cooler would be overkill.

Of course, if you're shipping several of these, you would still have misgivings, I suppose.
 

XavierMace

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2013
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My issue is with galvanic corrosion. I built my rig this past November, so the pump is just a few weeks old.

If your pump is only a few weeks old and you're having issues, it's defective. That has nothing to do with galvanic corrosion. But on the subject of galvanic corrosion, that's why the AIO's use propylene glycol.

I can beat the performance of an external dual-fan EXOS by delid-CLU-relidding the processor and then installing the LGM Macho.

If you're going to keep bringing up your delidding/fan shroud results in nearly every AIO thread, could you at least do a fair comparison with an AIO on a delidded processor and better fans because as is that's a completely misleading statement.
 
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JeepinEd

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Dec 12, 2005
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Swiftech are expandable and not asetek. https://www.swiftech.com/aio.aspx
I've been considering those, but they seem to be out of stock everywhere. I believe they use an all copper loop too. The only downside is that, from what i've read, they seem to develop hairline fractures in the reservoir. EKWB also makes a good unit, but at $340+ just to cool the CPU, it's kind of pricey. Some, like the Fractal Design Kelvin, seem to be good, but aren't sold in the U.S.
 

XavierMace

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Right now you're basically shooting down every AIO because of some failure point. If you truly need a zero maintenance device that will run forever (tm), then liquid cooling is not the option for you.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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If your pump is only a few weeks old and you're having issues, it's defective. That has nothing to do with galvanic corrosion. But on the subject of galvanic corrosion, that's why the AIO's use propylene glycol.



If you're going to keep bringing up your delidding/fan shroud results in nearly every AIO thread, could you at least do a fair comparison with an AIO on a delidded processor and better fans because as is that's a completely misleading statement.

Well, the OP asked about a choice between a D15 and his Eisbauer 240. this was the same choice I faced for comparing my TR LGM to an EKWB Predator 240 -- the troublesome model prior to the Phoenix kit I thought you may have mentioned in another thread. Or maybe it was another veteran member -- Aikouka.

It's true that I should give references to the reviews I turned up in my own comparisons. They usually overlap reviews shown at the Frosty-Tech site. Often, you find reviews that only compare air coolers to air coolers and AiOs to AiOs. But when there is a mix, and when you have at least two reviews, you can extrapolate relative rankings by simple transitivity inference.

To further clarify, I don't have a "fair comparison with an AiO on a delidded processor." Instead, I have the comparison under a 140W overclocked testbed between a Predator 240, an LGM and the NH-D15 without delidding modification. I know my CLU relid gave me a 12C advantage over the stock processor at a binned clock. That result -- my actual measurement under the same 4.7 Ghz clock -- with the CLU -- compared to the same but stock-original processor at 4.7 and a review test result with an external 240mm EXOS cooler. I'd like to remember which review that was, or the review site. I think it was Hardware Secrets.

So the CLU relid i7-6700K with the LGM @ 4.7 compares to the same unmodified stock processor (@4.7) using the EXOS water cooler -- the type that sits on top of a midtower or full-tower case -- an external assembly. I was running LinX with AVX affinitized, maximum problem size and memory -- a test so extreme that you couldn't imagine what other test would provide more stress. The EXOS stock-processor system @4.7 showed 82C, and my system was showing between 80 and 82C.

In the 140W testbed configurations, the Predator 240 outperformed the LGM by 5C, and the LGM outperformed the NH-D15 by 1C. And again -- this was a testbed with no delid/relid modification.

But I didn't collect all this information to make an inferential argument of a review here. It was -- according to my mind and foresight -- the research I used in making final parts purchases. And I backed away from the Predator 240 at the last minute when I could see what would likely happen with an LGM and a CLU-relidded processor.

I'm sorry if this is insufficient for your own confirmation of it. Also, the more I think of it, the OP would have no interest in CLU_relid modification of his processors for whatever number he's arranging to ship. I think he made that more clear even if it were possible that it would pique his interest. So in that case, he'd likely get results with a D15 that were 5 or 6C short on an AiO of a 240mm size in performance.

I'm totally OK that I have no prospect of failures, leaks, or more than dust-removal maintenance with my rig. But as far as I can see, I come out at least even with an AiO of the sizes discussed here, or even a little bit better just for the relidding.
 

XavierMace

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2013
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I think you missed my point. The whole reason review people use a test bed for benchmarking is for consistent results. You're constantly comparing a modified/optimized air setup versus an out of box AIO solution. While technically true, that's misleading. Stock vs stock, you're not going to beat it, and there's nothing stopping you from modifying the AIO setup to improve performance. Every time we have this discussion you seem to ignore there's nothing stopping you from delidding and using an AIO. Plus the OP already stated he has no interest in delidding.

The Macho is a decent heatsink but every review I've seen shows it being solidly beaten by multiple different AIO's on every test (IE: https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Thermalright/Macho_RevB/6.html). Yet you're insisting the Macho is the better option from a pure performance perspective which would seem to indicate a problem with your data.

You can't simply extrapolate relative rankings because there's other factors in play beyond just the CPU and cooler. Primarily ambient/intake temperatures. You can get an estimate (or an educated guess if you'd prefer), sure, but you have accept you're going to have a larger margin for error at that point. If your room was 5 degrees cooler than the review sites room, guess what, that's going to impact your results. If I directly extrapolated using my above link as a reference, I'd advise I can exceed the Macho's performance by 15c or more with my Kraken X62. However that would be misleading because I'm not running the stock fans. Technically right now it could be as much as 25c because it's cold as balls in my room right now, just the way I like it. Therefore it's only fair to compare apple to apples.

That said, I already stated if no maintenance is a driving factor, then liquid cooling isn't for him. But in 15 years of liquid cooling, I've had one leak. People drastically overreact to the risks. Could it leak? Sure. Your house could burn down too.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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As I said, the EKWB Predator outperforms the Macho by 5C in the reviews -- for unmolested stock CPUs defined only by the thermal wattage. I grant that -- it was a given.

As for the room ambients, most reviews report these in a separate column and compute the temperature change against those ambients, normalizing the results.

And I easily admit that using an AiO with the CLU-relid would lead to an ~ 12C improvement beyond overclocked non-relidded results, while the CLU-relid itself has a range of variation in measurable improvement.

If I wanted to report this stuff for a "comparison review," I would've bought all the coolers involved, installed, tested and rated them one at a time.

Except for the single-fan AiO coolers, I don't know of a single dual-fan AiO which doesn't outperform the D15 OR the Macho. Surely, maybe there are some, but not those I may have eyed with interest. The only point I made with this: it's possible to skin the cat in such a way that the overall result is good enough to push the CPU to limits more likely for water cooling.

But certainly, you could enhance an AiO with the CLU-relid, ducting, better fans and so on. And in the case of my LGM, the duct is a ThermalRight accessory made for the cooler. Because the cooler is viable as a "fanless" deployment, the reviews themselves use the duct and I can't say I modified anything to get better results except for the CLU.
 

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
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Right now you're basically shooting down every AIO because of some failure point. If you truly need a zero maintenance device that will run forever (tm), then liquid cooling is not the option for you.

You're right. I'm being paranoid. I do like the Swiftech coolers, but haven't found any sites that have them in stock.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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You're right. I'm being paranoid. I do like the Swiftech coolers, but haven't found any sites that have them in stock.

I'm assuming you mean the Swiftech H240 X2. When I came to the AiO-vs-LGM crossroads, I was considering that one along with the EKWB Predator 240. I only noted that more than one user review stated that they received the cooler nearly empty of fluid, which had leaked all over the interior of the retail box. Other indications suggested you'd best test it carefully, make sure all the fittings were snug and leak-proof.
 

XavierMace

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Apr 20, 2013
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Given you're not going to be near these systems, buying a more expensive expandable solution like the Swifttech or the EKWB is pointless since you're not going to expand them and they perform worse than the cheaper Kraken X62.
 

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
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Given you're not going to be near these systems, buying a more expensive expandable solution like the Swifttech or the EKWB is pointless since you're not going to expand them and they perform worse than the cheaper Kraken X62.

I just read that it comes with a 6 year warranty, which is pretty impressive. How well does the X62 perform without the CAM software? I prefer to let the MB control the pump and fans.
 

XavierMace

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Any AIO requires you to use their software, you're just asking for problems if you don't.
 

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
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Any AIO requires you to use their software, you're just asking for problems if you don't.
The Eisbaer that I'm currently using doens't need any software. The pump connects to the pump connector on my motherboard, and it comes with a splitter that allows me to connect the fans to the CPU fan connector. I trust my motherboard's ability to control fan speeds more than a piece of software than can crash. As far as I can tell, the main reason some of these AIO's use their own software is to control the RGB settings.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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The Eisbaer that I'm currently using doens't need any software. The pump connects to the pump connector on my motherboard, and it comes with a splitter that allows me to connect the fans to the CPU fan connector. I trust my motherboard's ability to control fan speeds more than a piece of software than can crash. As far as I can tell, the main reason some of these AIO's use their own software is to control the RGB settings.

I scanned the entire thread all over again, and I can't find mention of which motherboard you used. What's the make and model? My Z170 board is in my sig.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
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. . . and Z270 for -- I would think -- either Kaby Lake or Sky Lake.

But that's still a distraction from the reason I asked. What you get with a Maximus IX -- Formula, Extreme, whatever -- would be a reasonable accommodation to features I have with the Sabertooth Z170 S. Specifically, I know we both have a 4-pin PWM "Pump" port -- probably located near the CPU and CPU_OPT ports at the top of the board.

And what you're saying helps me sort out how I'd want to introduce an AiO or custom AiO cooler to my system, to set the initial curves within the BIOS, on ports designated specifically for certain devices. I'd want to be able to tune the fans and the pump separately, and I'd prefer doing it through the motherboard -- not through some other software interface.

I'd especially like to know that the AiO cooler itself would be amenable to that sort of arrangement.

AlphaCool. Did not AlphaCool release the M.2 interface . . . the KryoM.2 board for NVME and the heatsink bundled with it? Am I mixed up about this? Or am I right?

I want to see some comparison reviews. Absolutely. Positively.

RECONNOITER RETURN: I was looking at comparison reviews that included the NH-D15, the NH-D14, the Eisbauer 280 and the Kraken X61. With these coolers, the biggest performance gap is about 5C between D15 and the Eisbauer, which suggests it performs about the same as the EKWB Predator. The Kraken has about 2 or 3C degree advantage over that. Not much changes in the incentives I might have to swap out my TR LGM for even a Kraken.
 
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