Seeing Creation and Evolution in Grand Canyon

[Malfeas]

People who don't believe in things that can't be proven must think we already know all the knowledge there is to know in the universe. Rather naive if you ask me. I would never be so presumptuous as to think such a thing.

Wow, that is a rather stupid statement. Why do you ASSUME that someone who requires proof or evidence to believe in something or reach a rational conclusion thinks they know everything???? I would think most intelligent and rational people are quite aware of their own limitations and knowledge, or else why would scientists always be looking for new things to study and learn?????

I believe there are plenty of things we have yet to discover but that we still lack the scientific advancement and technology to be able to detect. There are things we don't know that we don't even know that we don't know. There are answers out there for which we have not even thought up the questions yet. "Yet". . .It's like the word "if." Little word, big big meaning.

I agree, there are an unknown number of things out there we have not discovered or explained yet. But it is through science that we will find and learn about these things, not from praying to the giant magic man in the sky to reveal the knowledge to us.

Science = The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

 

[Malfeas]

Originally posted by: marvdmartian
If you want to believe that Cheetah the Chimp is your great-great-great (etcetera) grandad, that's your choice, and I promise not to laugh at you for it. On the same token, I expect you to respect my beliefs, whether you hold them in personal contempt or not. If everyone could learn to do that, we'd have a whole lot less religious wars in this world (which just goes back to the what I said at the beginning, eh? ).

No scientist believes we are descended from chimpanzees, but that all primates evolved from one common ancestor. And why would you laugh at me for believing in that? There is a mountain of evidence supporting that claim, and absolutely none, zero, zip, nada, zilch that we were created by a 'greater being'.

 

[Vic]

Blah blah blah anyone who doesn't believe like I do should be persecuted blah blah blah labels blah blah blah generalizations blah blah blah ALL people of certain label think the same and are idiots blah blah blah stereotypes blah blah blah hate blah blah blah bigotry blah blah blah prejudices blah blah blah fear blah blah blah think the way I do or else blah blah blah ignorance blah blah blah how dare someone else believe in something I don't agree with blah blah blah there oughta be a law blah blah blah

:roll:

 

[Gigantopithecus]

There's a big difference between believing something to be true and accepting facts. Anachronistic Christians believe Special Creation is true; evolutionists accept evolution as fact.

Everyone's entitled to their own beliefs, but facts are generally monopolized by one side of an argument.

 

[mOeeOm]

So...has evolution been proven for humans as fact yet or are they still looking for the ''missing'' link or more proof?

 

[JacobJ]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
So...has evolution been proven for humans as fact yet or are they still looking for the ''missing'' link or more proof?

I'd suggest you learn the very basics of what science is before asking such questions.

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
So...has evolution been proven for humans as fact yet or are they still looking for the ''missing'' link or more proof?

I'd suggest you learn the very basics of what science is before asking such questions.

They don't teach us science in engineering, care to explain it to me?

 

[Malfeas]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
So...has evolution been proven for humans as fact yet or are they still looking for the ''missing'' link or more proof?

I'd suggest you learn the very basics of what science is before asking such questions.

I would have suggested pulling his head out of his ass, but your solution seems equally as possible.

 

[Vic]

My issue here is that the OP's argument only benefits the Republicans, as the OP clearly represents the Democrats while his rhetoric alienates more people than it associates.

 

[mOeeOm]

So..no one can answer my quesiton?

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: Vic
My issue here is that the OP's argument only benefits the Republicans, as the OP clearly represents the Democrats while his rhetoric alienates more people than it associates.

I'm not sure where I mentioned anything about politics in the OP. That being said, yes the Republicans embrace the religious right, which are anti-science in general. The Democrats are much more secular and understand that science and innovation are what makes the US great.

Do I care if I alienate creationist or zealots? Not really, the country is better off without them. You want a theocracy, go to Iran.

 

[eilute]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
I saw a bumper sticker on my way to work that really chapped my hide. I've seen it before, but I was a little grumpy and started thinking about it today. It was the "No Jesus, No Peace/Know Jesus, Know Peace" sticker. It's a really divisive attitude, not to mention pompous, that "if you'd just believe what I want you to, we could get along!" Why must I believe in their religion in order to know peace? The fact of the matter is that I know peace and I don't believe Jesus was the literal son of god (other than in the sense that we're all "children" of a deity if one happens to believe in one).
It's interesting that I rarely hear of hindus or buddhists causing acts of violence in the name of religion, yet there's a huge number of both of those groups. Shouldn't they follow the bell curve and have fundamentalist zealots that make the rest of them look bad? Or is that somehow limited to groups that follow the Bible in some form or another?

By "Know peace" I figured they meant inner peace. There are many things that might bring about such a state.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
So...has evolution been proven for humans as fact yet or are they still looking for the ''missing'' link or more proof?

Using the term 'missing link' betrays a misunderstanding of contemporary evolutionary theory; 'missing link' is a relic of early 20th Century thinking. Think of it this way:

A---------C

Now say you find 'missing link' B, you now have A----B----C. Now you have to find the links between A & B, as well as B & C. We know now with genetics that there are no 'missing links', just continuous genetic variation, all the way from humble bacteria to chimps to humans. It's nothing more than a matter of degree.

You want evidence of human evolution?

Look where frequencies of sickle cell allele are highest in the global population - they're all in areas infested with one of the Anopheles species of mosquito malaria vectors.

Explain why folks from sub-Saharan Africa have dark skin, but the people from the tropics of South America don't have dark skin even though the incidence of solar radiation is just as high there.

Or, why do African-Americans suffer from hypertension at significantly higher rates than do European-Americans?

Or, why do Middle Eastern women who don the burkha & abaya in Western Europe develop rickets, a disease resulting from vitamin D deficiency unknown in white Western Europeans - and unknown in burkha-wearing women living in the Middle East & Indonesia?

I could go on and on and on and on... But I ask whether the Bible, the Koran, or any other holy text explains any of the above facts.

Not believing in evolution on religious grounds is tantamount to believing the earth is flat & the center of the solar system because a holy text says so.

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
So...has evolution been proven for humans as fact yet or are they still looking for the ''missing'' link or more proof?

Using the term 'missing link' betrays a misunderstanding of contemporary evolutionary theory; 'missing link' is a relic of early 20th Century thinking. Think of it this way:

A---------C

Now say you find 'missing link' B, you now have A----B----C. Now you have to find the links between A & B, as well as B & C. We know now with genetics that there are no 'missing links', just continuous genetic variation, all the way from humble bacteria to chimps to humans. It's nothing more than a matter of degree.

You want evidence of human evolution?

Look where frequencies of sickle cell allele are highest in the global population - they're all in areas infested with one of the Anopheles species of mosquito malaria vectors.

Explain why folks from sub-Saharan Africa have dark skin, but the people from the tropics of South America don't have dark skin even though the incidence of solar radiation is just as high there.

Or, why do African-Americans suffer from hypertension at significantly higher rates than do European-Americans?

Or, why do Middle Eastern women who don the burkha & abaya in Western Europe develop rickets, a disease resulting from vitamin D deficiency unknown in white Western Europeans - and unknown in burkha-wearing women living in the Middle East & Indonesia?

I could go on and on and on and on... But I ask whether the Bible, the Koran, or any other holy text explains any of the above facts.

Not believing in evolution on religious grounds is tantamount to believing the earth is flat & the center of the solar system because a holy text says so.

Good points, so is there somewhere I can do some reading on it? I tried googling but all I got was religious people bashing scientists and scientists bashing religion...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: Vic
My issue here is that the OP's argument only benefits the Republicans, as the OP clearly represents the Democrats while his rhetoric alienates more people than it associates.

I'm not sure where I mentioned anything about politics in the OP. That being said, yes the Republicans embrace the religious right, which are anti-science in general. The Democrats are much more secular and understand that science and innovation are what makes the US great.

Do I care if I alienate creationist or zealots? Not really, the country is better off without them. You want a theocracy, go to Iran.

My point exactly. There is not one actual true statement in your entire post right there, just a bunch of generalizations and stereotypes (which are, by logical definition, never true as any generalization can be proven wrong with one single exception). You have fallen for exactly Bush's agenda to get the far left to alienate themselves as far as possible from the mainstream. Way to go, pal.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Generalizations are one thing, correlations are another.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Generalizations are one thing, correlations are another.

Correlation as to what? Absolute bullsh!t? I have Republican friends who work in scientific/technology fields, and my lifetime straight-ticket Democrat father is a devout Christian.

You should try not making yourself sound more like a college punk radical than you already do.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
I saw a bumper sticker on my way to work that really chapped my hide. I've seen it before, but I was a little grumpy and started thinking about it today. It was the "No Jesus, No Peace/Know Jesus, Know Peace" sticker. It's a really divisive attitude, not to mention pompous, that "if you'd just believe what I want you to, we could get along!" Why must I believe in their religion in order to know peace?

That pissed you off?

What pisses me off are the "God answers knee-mail" ones, because nothing really enrages me like a poorly executed pun! :|

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
I saw a bumper sticker on my way to work that really chapped my hide. I've seen it before, but I was a little grumpy and started thinking about it today. It was the "No Jesus, No Peace/Know Jesus, Know Peace" sticker. It's a really divisive attitude, not to mention pompous, that "if you'd just believe what I want you to, we could get along!" Why must I believe in their religion in order to know peace?

That pissed you off?

What pisses me off are the "God answers knee-mail" ones, because nothing really enrages me like a poorly executed pun! :|

Oh common that one was good

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
So...has evolution been proven for humans as fact yet or are they still looking for the ''missing'' link or more proof?

Using the term 'missing link' betrays a misunderstanding of contemporary evolutionary theory; 'missing link' is a relic of early 20th Century thinking. Think of it this way:

A---------C

Now say you find 'missing link' B, you now have A----B----C. Now you have to find the links between A & B, as well as B & C. We know now with genetics that there are no 'missing links', just continuous genetic variation, all the way from humble bacteria to chimps to humans. It's nothing more than a matter of degree.

You want evidence of human evolution?

Look where frequencies of sickle cell allele are highest in the global population - they're all in areas infested with one of the Anopheles species of mosquito malaria vectors.

Explain why folks from sub-Saharan Africa have dark skin, but the people from the tropics of South America don't have dark skin even though the incidence of solar radiation is just as high there.

Or, why do African-Americans suffer from hypertension at significantly higher rates than do European-Americans?

Or, why do Middle Eastern women who don the burkha & abaya in Western Europe develop rickets, a disease resulting from vitamin D deficiency unknown in white Western Europeans - and unknown in burkha-wearing women living in the Middle East & Indonesia?

I could go on and on and on and on... But I ask whether the Bible, the Koran, or any other holy text explains any of the above facts.

Not believing in evolution on religious grounds is tantamount to believing the earth is flat & the center of the solar system because a holy text says so.

Good points, so is there somewhere I can do some reading on it? I tried googling but all I got was religious people bashing scientists and scientists bashing religion...

talkorigins.org has an immense amount of information on everything pertaining to the subject of evolution.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: daveshel
I believe that God created man through the forces of evolution. The writer of Genesis was writing for his audience, taking a few liberties to accommodate the non-scientific mind set of the day.

There is no such thing as guided evolution. That is called breading and makes use and all other aniamals in the worlds basicly Gods pets/cattle. I don't see how one can except evolution with out rejecting the Bible.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: daveshel
I believe that God created man through the forces of evolution. The writer of Genesis was writing for his audience, taking a few liberties to accommodate the non-scientific mind set of the day.

There is no such thing as guided evolution. That is called breading and makes use and all other aniamals in the worlds basicly Gods pets/cattle. I don't see how one can except evolution with out rejecting the Bible.

Maybe because there is more to the Bible than just the first few chapters of Genesis?

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: daveshel
I believe that God created man through the forces of evolution. The writer of Genesis was writing for his audience, taking a few liberties to accommodate the non-scientific mind set of the day.

There is no such thing as guided evolution. That is called breading and makes use and all other aniamals in the worlds basicly Gods pets/cattle. I don't see how one can except evolution with out rejecting the Bible.

Maybe because there is more to the Bible than just the first few chapters of Genesis?

Besides the questions of why would god lie and Man is created in Gods image. How important could a God be that didn't create. Did God take a walk in the solar system and notice that some random plant had aniamals a little smart then other animals and said what hell lets wipe 99% of them out with a flood. Then later though maybe it would be a good idea to sacrifice my only son so that some of the smarter animals would get into heaven. Which it also decided to create while at the same time conjuring up hell for them bad people.

It just seems really odd that the earth got by just fine for 4 billion years but then 2000 years ago God decided to meddle with earth.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: daveshel
I believe that God created man through the forces of evolution. The writer of Genesis was writing for his audience, taking a few liberties to accommodate the non-scientific mind set of the day.

There is no such thing as guided evolution. That is called breading and makes use and all other aniamals in the worlds basicly Gods pets/cattle. I don't see how one can except evolution with out rejecting the Bible.

Maybe because there is more to the Bible than just the first few chapters of Genesis?

Besides the questions of why would god lie and Man is created in Gods image. How important could a God be that didn't create. Did God take a walk in the solar system and notice that some random plant had aniamals a little smart then other animals and said what hell lets wipe 99% of them out with a flood. Then later though maybe it would be a good idea to sacrifice my only son so that some of the smarter animals would get into heaven. Which it also decided to create while at the same time conjuring up hell for them bad people.

It just seems really odd that the earth got by just fine for 4 billion years but then 2000 years ago God decided to meddle with earth.

As a general rule of wisdom, I try to avoid arguing against subjects I have no knowledge of. I find it helps to keep me from looking foolish. I think that would be good advice for you as well.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: daveshel
I believe that God created man through the forces of evolution. The writer of Genesis was writing for his audience, taking a few liberties to accommodate the non-scientific mind set of the day.

There is no such thing as guided evolution. That is called breading and makes use and all other aniamals in the worlds basicly Gods pets/cattle. I don't see how one can except evolution with out rejecting the Bible.

Maybe because there is more to the Bible than just the first few chapters of Genesis?

Besides the questions of why would god lie and Man is created in Gods image. How important could a God be that didn't create. Did God take a walk in the solar system and notice that some random plant had aniamals a little smart then other animals and said what hell lets wipe 99% of them out with a flood. Then later though maybe it would be a good idea to sacrifice my only son so that some of the smarter animals would get into heaven. Which it also decided to create while at the same time conjuring up hell for them bad people.

It just seems really odd that the earth got by just fine for 4 billion years but then 2000 years ago God decided to meddle with earth.

As a general rule of wisdom, I try to avoid arguing against subjects I have no knowledge of. I find it helps to keep me from looking foolish. I think that would be good advice for you as well.

First of all your wisdom sucks. One never learns if they don't discuse topics you know everything about. With you wisdom all you get are assholes throwing insults. How do you ratonlize a God that claims to be all powerful and all seeing had to lie or choose to lie. The only bigger claim that one could make then claiming to create the earth, seas, and life is to claim to have created heaven.