Seeing Creation and Evolution in Grand Canyon

[Todd33]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/06/scien...6c4e&hp&ex=1128657600&partner=homepage

For Mr. Vail and 29 guests on his Canyon Ministries trip, this was vacation as religious pilgrimage, an expedition in search of evidence that God created the earth in six days 6,000 years ago, just as Scripture says.

That same week, a few miles upriver, a decidedly different group of 24 rafters surveyed the same rock formations - but through the lens of science rather than what Mr. Vail calls "biblical glasses." Sponsored by the National Center for Science Education, the chief challenger to creationists' influence in public schools, this trip was a floating geology seminar, charting the canyon's evolution through eons of erosion.

Though it did not ask specifically about the global flood or six-day creation, a November 2004 Gallup survey found that a third of the public believes the Bible is the actual word of God that should be taken literally and that 45 percent think God created human beings "pretty much in their present form" within the last 10,000 years.

Gallup found in another poll that 5 percent of scientists, and fewer than 1 percent of earth and life scientists, adopted the "Young Earth" view.

"In the book of Genesis, it talks about God walking the face of the earth," Mrs. Crotts explained. "Maybe His footprints are there."

When Lucy Panes, 20, shouted, "Oh my God!" after a guide doused her with river water, she immediately covered her mouth, only to be admonished by her mother, Diana, "Please don't shout that."

I wonder why science is on the decline in the US and we need to rely on H1B visas? WTF does a world wide flood make a canyon anyway? The stupidity of man never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Zysoclaplem]

I've never been to the Grand Canyon. Sounds impressive.

 

[Warthog912]

Please... Please don't get me started on people's moronic (IMO) views (which they are intitled too). I can't for the life of me see how people can get up everyday believing such things that can never be seen or proven.


/Flamesuit

Oh, and we REALLY need a religion forum.

 

[Bumrush99]

Guys, I have learned over the years that you can not argue logic with religous people. Just nod your heads and listen to their ramblings, no matter what you say or do they will not change their minds.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
I've never been to the Grand Canyon. Sounds impressive.

It is. Advantage of living next to it.

 

[nakedfrog]

I saw a bumper sticker on my way to work that really chapped my hide. I've seen it before, but I was a little grumpy and started thinking about it today. It was the "No Jesus, No Peace/Know Jesus, Know Peace" sticker. It's a really divisive attitude, not to mention pompous, that "if you'd just believe what I want you to, we could get along!" Why must I believe in their religion in order to know peace? The fact of the matter is that I know peace and I don't believe Jesus was the literal son of god (other than in the sense that we're all "children" of a deity if one happens to believe in one).
It's interesting that I rarely hear of hindus or buddhists causing acts of violence in the name of religion, yet there's a huge number of both of those groups. Shouldn't they follow the bell curve and have fundamentalist zealots that make the rest of them look bad? Or is that somehow limited to groups that follow the Bible in some form or another?
And another thing, what is it about these fundamentalist groups that makes them insist on injecting some form of religion into scientific debate? Is it just their rabid form of proselytization, to force kids whose parents aren't christian to hear what they believe in a science class, rather than just having their own kids hear about it at church?

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
I've never been to the Grand Canyon. Sounds impressive.

It is. Advantage of living next to it.

I've been there too. On my way, I was kind of sullen thinking we're going to see a big hole. Then we got there, and impressive is an understatement. I'm glad I tagged along.

I think more people need to keep some of their views to themselves in mixed company, unless they can be well behaved while doing so.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Guys, I have learned over the years that you can not argue logic with religous people. Just nod your heads and listen to their ramblings, no matter what you say or do they will not change their minds.

How can one change that which they do not possess ?

 

[jackschmittusa]

Ah, you doubters underestimate the power of The Great Flood. Why, it carved out the Grand Canyon in a matter of weeks or months when it drained. It carried seashells up onto the mountains, giving the illusion that the mountains rose up from flatter ground. It mixed up all the stuff on the planet too, giving the false impression that the depth at which a fossil is found is related to its chronology. And dinosaurs survived the flood too because they were on the Ark. All of the original species survived the flood, meaning that untold thousands of species have died out in a meer 4k years. If that extinction rate continues, the end days must be nigh.

God must have busted a gut with all of the false clues he left behind with his badass flood. Probably still rolling around on the floor of heaven today with each new "false" discovery.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Ah, you doubters underestimate the power of The Great Flood. Why, it carved out the Grand Canyon in a matter of weeks or months when it drained. It carried seashells up onto the mountains, giving the illusion that the mountains rose up from flatter ground. It mixed up all the stuff on the planet too, giving the false impression that the depth at which a fossil is found is related to its chronology. And dinosaurs survived the flood too because they were on the Ark. All of the original species survived the flood, meaning that untold thousands of species have died out in a meer 4k years. If that extinction rate continues, the end days must be nigh.

God must have busted a gut with all of the false clues he left behind with his badass flood. Probably still rolling around on the floor of heaven today with each new "false" discovery.

Nice:gift:

 

[wchou]

I want to get something straight, you either believe in faith [very emotional] or science [proven facts]
The thing is creation science is using science to keep people believing in creation... converting the science believer back to creation.. people will believe what most believe and that's why we're all confused. www.churchofreality.org snapped me out of this confusion because one day I believe in evolution the next day it's creation, and then both. As long as we don't come to a conclusion there will always be people doing something quite insane that they normally don't such as killing doctors who performed abortion on women. I have learned that if a lie is repeated enough times, most will believe it even if their logic tells them it isn't so. Most of us need to wake up from the fantasy world of creation, it's not real. It's all imagination and all so magical..
It is called superstition but it is amazing how many are so gullible for it due to a sense of belonging to a group that they are so attached to it, that they will even give up their life if asked such as sacrifice to calm the wrath of an angry god.

http://www.churchofreality.org
http:\\www.churchofreality.org

The only way to find out for real in life is to experiment like above to see if it is proven.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: wchou
I want to get something straight, you either believe in faith [very emotional] or science [proven facts]
The thing is creation science is using science to keep people believing in creation... converting the science believer back to creation.. people will believe what most believe and that's why we're all confused. www.churchofreality.org snapped me out of this confusion because one day I believe in evolution the next day it's creation, and then both. As long as we don't come to a conclusion there will always be people doing something quite insane that they normally don't such as killing doctors who performed abortion on women. I have learned that if a lie is repeated enough times, most will believe it even if their logic tells them it isn't so. Most of us need to wake up from the fantasy world of creation, it's not real. It's all imagination and all so magical..
It is called superstition but it is amazing how many are so gullible for it due to a sense of belonging to a group that they are so attached to it, that they will even give up their life if asked such as sacrifice to calm the wrath of an angry god.

http://www.churchofreality.org
http:\\www.churchofreality.org

The only way to find out for real in life is to experiment like above to see if it is proven.

The reason we are here has to do with plastic.

 

[mect]

Originally posted by: Warthog912
Please... Please don't get me started on people's moronic (IMO) views (which they are intitled too). I can't for the life of me see how people can get up everyday believing such things that can never be seen or proven.


/Flamesuit

Oh, and we REALLY need a religion forum.

I can't understand how anyone can get up believing only in things that can be seen and proven. What a bland, unenchanted world.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: Warthog912
Please... Please don't get me started on people's moronic (IMO) views (which they are intitled too). I can't for the life of me see how people can get up everyday believing such things that can never be seen or proven.


/Flamesuit

Oh, and we REALLY need a religion forum.

I can't understand how anyone can get up believing only in things that can be seen and proven. What a bland, unenchanted world.

Wanna buy a bridge?

 

[Warthog912]

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: Warthog912
Please... Please don't get me started on people's moronic (IMO) views (which they are intitled too). I can't for the life of me see how people can get up everyday believing such things that can never be seen or proven.


/Flamesuit

Oh, and we REALLY need a religion forum.

I can't understand how anyone can get up believing only in things that can be seen and proven. What a bland, unenchanted world.

I take comfort in waking up to reality. Don't know about you though.

Oh, and yeah, my life might be bland compared to yours- BUT I live my life for myself, wife, and children. So blow me-

 

[daveshel]

I believe that God created man through the forces of evolution. The writer of Genesis was writing for his audience, taking a few liberties to accommodate the non-scientific mind set of the day.

 

[Caminetto]

Originally posted by: daveshel
I believe that God created man through the forces of evolution. The writer of Genesis was writing for his audience, taking a few liberties to accommodate the non-scientific mind set of the day.

:thumbsup:

But sadly the non-scientific mind set rules this day too.

 

[redhatlinux]

Well as a scientist and a devout believer in Christ let me offer you this tidbit. Watched an interesting program on the tube last night. Two women, (and this may be occuring much more often than anybody knows) were declared absolutely 100% NOT to be the mothers of their children by DNA testing, the lastest and greatest in science right. There was a racial component as always. One of the women had her children by an African American male. The other women did not. To cut the story short , each women was their own twin. A strange situation occurs that the two fertilized eggs form together as one. DNA is scrambled, tests from blood of one of the women showed she had DNA from her Father and the saw DNA which her brother had, but none from her mother. Extensive testing which established NEW science found differing DNS in diferent organs. Had it not been for the research performed on the older woman, the younger woman with the African American boy friend would have had her children removed by the court, and she would have been sued for welfare fraud !!.

One issue that ALWAYS fails the evolution test, the dog. Dogs that have NOT been messed around with by man to form the breeds that we have today, show absolutely zero change from remains found millions of years a go. No evolution at all, check it out, its true. One other point, take a look at the hammer head shark and determine just WHAT in evolution caused its head to be the way that it is ??

 

[Todd33]

"Dogs" didn't exists millions of years ago, not that Christians believe in millions of years. Dogs diverged from wolves about 15,000-40,000 years ago. I doubt there are any mammals that you can say have not changed in millions of years, of course you can say that with ancient predators like shark and crocodile. If you mean some sort of primitive canine, then I'd like to see your proof. I'm not sure how you can prove something isn't evolving, evolution isn't a constant thing, it happens in burst with environmental change and/or mutation. If I point to a great white and say it's DNA has not change in two million years, It would not prove that evolution does not happen. It just proves that that species is near optimal for it's surroundings, it has no reason to change after 60+ million years.

I'm sorry, no real scientist can look at mountains of evidence, observations, etc. and dismiss it while going along with children's fable about floods and animals on a boat. BTW how did Noah fit all those species on a boat, there an estimate 50 million species of animals on Earth. That's one large boat, did that include dinosaurs? Detail, details...

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: Todd33
"Dogs" didn't exists millions of years ago, not that Christians believe in millions of years. Dogs diverged from wolves about 15,000-40,000 years ago. I doubt there are any mammals that you can say have not changed in millions of years, of course you can say that with ancient predators like shark and crocodile. If you mean some sort of primitive canine, then I'd like to see your proof. I'm not sure how you can prove something isn't evolving, evolution isn't a constant thing, it happens in burst with environmental change and/or mutation. If I point to a great white and say it's DNA has not change in two million years, It would not prove that evolution does not happen. It just proves that that species is near optimal for it's surroundings, it has no reason to change after 60+ million years.

I'm sorry, no real scientist can look at mountains of evidence, observations, etc. and dismiss it while going along with children's fable about floods and animals on a boat. BTW how did Noah fit all those species on a boat, there an estimate 50 million species of animals on Earth. That's one large boat, did that include dinosaurs? Detail, details...

The debate isn't about animals, it is about humans. I'm sure most Christians believe animals evolved, but they will not agree to it when it is for humans, they believe humans were born as they are.

As for Noah, no the timeframe of Noah was after dinosaurs went extinct, now...I don't know how the new Christians feel about dinosaurs, but Quran tells Muslims there were dinosaurs..and since the bible was exactly like the Quran before they changed...maybe they left that fact alone or changed it, who knows.

any christian wanna confirm it?

 

[goota]

I am 100% for people believing in whatever they want to believe.

Creationism or Evolution, I am fine with people believing either, The thing that pisses me off is when people try to tell you that what you think is wrong. I am entitled to my own beliefs, and you are to your own. I find this more prevalent in creationists, through my own experience at least, that they feel the extensive need to prove YOU wrong for believing in what you believe.

but then again, maybe both of the theories are wrong, and something else did something else, that makes us here?

 

[digiram]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Guys, I have learned over the years that you can not argue logic with religous people. Just nod your heads and listen to their ramblings, no matter what you say or do they will not change their minds.

Agreed.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: Warthog912
Please... Please don't get me started on people's moronic (IMO) views (which they are intitled too). I can't for the life of me see how people can get up everyday believing such things that can never be seen or proven.


/Flamesuit

Oh, and we REALLY need a religion forum.

I can't understand how anyone can get up believing only in things that can be seen and proven. What a bland, unenchanted world.

People who don't believe in things that can't be proven must think we already know all the knowledge there is to know in the universe. Rather naive if you ask me. I would never be so presumptuous as to think such a thing. I believe there are plenty of things we have yet to discover but that we still lack the scientific advancement and technology to be able to detect. There are things we don't know that we don't even know that we don't know. There are answers out there for which we have not even thought up the questions yet. "Yet". . .It's like the word "if." Little word, big big meaning.

 

[cwgannon]

As was said above, there's no use in arguing reason with theists. Theirs is a non-rational belief, i.e., a belief held without any evidence. Furthermore, the burden of proof for the existence of a god lies on them. Lacking the ability of reason makes this an impossibility of course, leaving them incapable of damaging science whatsoever but, unfortunately, capable of harming the minds of the feeble with whom they agree. It is entirely a state of mind inconsistent with its era, though a state whose existence seems, nonetheless, sempiternal.

 

[marvdmartian]

Hey, like I always say, faith is a wonderful thing. It's when you introduce religion that it gets all screwed up!! :laugh:

Sorta like the idea of communism. On paper, it's great. Everyone working for the betterment of everyone else. We all work hard, we all excel in life and have everything we need. But once you introduce the human factor into the idea, it's no good. Because people are petty, cheating, lazy creatures, most of whom think that everyone should work for the betterment of THEM. That's why every communist country on this earth has a ruling class of people who are "more equal" than their "comrades". :roll:

Oh, and please don't wad everyone who believes in a higher being in with a the religious zealots in the world. Most of us are aware that the bible was passed down by word of mouth for quite a few years before it was written or printed, and I for one believe that it's highly likely that between that and the different language interpretations it's gone through, that the original message has become skewed. Besides which, most of the "young earth" types have totally missed the part of the bible that states that one day to God is like a thousand years, or some such thing. If you want to believe that Cheetah the Chimp is your great-great-great (etcetera) grandad, that's your choice, and I promise not to laugh at you for it. On the same token, I expect you to respect my beliefs, whether you hold them in personal contempt or not. If everyone could learn to do that, we'd have a whole lot less religious wars in this world (which just goes back to the what I said at the beginning, eh? ).