See the future: 14" short-throw projector distance = 100" screen

[Kaido]

Article:

http://bgr.com/2015/09/14/lgs-minibeam-projector-specs-details-announced/

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=f3a4fDM7JCc

Notes:

1. Compact unit (5.2 x 4.5 x 11.1")
2. 100" diagonal screen from 14" away
3. 1000-lumen LED bulb (30k-hour bulb life)
4. 1080p resolution
5. 150,000:1 contrast ratio
6. $1,400 USD
7. Extra goodies (Bluetooth for speakers, smarts built for Netflix etc.)

Found it for pre-order on B&H: (4-week shipping estimate)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1127969-REG/lg_minibeam_pro_pf1000u_1000.html

A few pics of the unit on Newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824025201

This seems like the perfect unit to replace a standard TV-based home theater...pop the TV off the wall, throw up a screen or paint, and plug it into your receiver. This basically looks like a short-throw version of the existing 1,400-lumen PF1500 unit, albeit at a $400 premium. A couple foreign-language quick reviews with pics:

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/forum/topic/889-ifa-2015-les-nouveautés-chez-lg/

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/forum/topic/889-ifa-2015-les-nouveautés-chez-lg/

Awesome!!

 

[Anubis]

1000 lumens is not that great unless you can make your house a total blackout cave

however that thing is pretty tiny

 

[sdifox]

I'll wait for actual review measurements before I get excited.

 

[JAG87]

Nah, this is the future

http://www.sony.com/electronics/projectors-4k/lspx-w1s

Seen one in person running 4K uncompressed footage, it looked like 2D VR, I shit you not.

 

[Kaido]

1000 lumens is not that great unless you can make your house a total blackout cave

however that thing is pretty tiny

LED lumens are different (perceived brighter). My 500-lumen is great in the dark. The 800-lumen I've used works even with some light in the room. 1000-lumens of LED goodness would be just fine (srs). Plus you can just slap on some ambient light paint if you want daytime viewing capabilities:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...asy-ambient-light-rejecting-screen-paint.html

 

[Kaido]

I'll wait for actual review measurements before I get excited.

The PF1500 is already out & is doing well (1400 lumens). This looks like exactly the same projector, minus 400 lumens. My guess is that it will be excellent for the money.

I think it's awesome, but I don't know what I'd do with it personally. My house constantly has small children running around in it & my subwoofer port is already a repository for Legos & other toys - definitely wouldn't want something that open available to kids to touch/break/throw toys in/spill juice in/etc. But it's really really neat that it exists & at such a low price (relative to other short-throw projectors).

 

[Kaido]

Nah, this is the future

http://www.sony.com/electronics/projectors-4k/lspx-w1s

Seen one in person running 4K uncompressed footage, it looked like 2D VR

I actually watched a bunch of Youtube videos on that gear the other day, the picture quality was absolutely incredible, even from just a camcorder. But eh, $50k vs. $1.4k hehehe. They have another one, the VPLGTZ1 (also $50k), that looks absolutely fantastic as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDAOpQiqNY4

 

[JAG87]

Believe me, seeing it in person is something else. I am not one for the 4K hype, but on a 200" screen from 6 feet away, holy shiiiiiiiiiiii. Lol.

 

[Kaido]

Believe me, seeing it in person is something else. I am not one for the 4K hype, but on a 200" screen from 6 feet away

Yeah I saw a 4K Sony jumbotron, maybe a 70 or 85" screen, and it was absolutely jaw-dropping. That was the first time where I had seen 4K and been like yeah OK I'm sold haha.

Oh and they have another video of the LG unit up:

http://liliputing.com/2015/09/lg-projector-casts-100-inch-picture-from-15-inches-away.html

 

[darkswordsman17]

That is impressive. Would doing shorthrow also help with output, meaning, if its closer to the wall it could offer similar image with lower lumen output? If they can up it to 2000-1500 (with it maybe just striving to offer at least 1000 consistently, so that it could compensate for output loss over time), these shorthrow LED projectors could get really interesting. It would at least help make the ambient lighting less of an issue (although you'd still want to limit it as much as possible).

Also if they could get away with using a larger display panel that they project through it could improve quality, albeit at the expense of size, but use a larger panel and more LEDs. And with 4K+ it'll be spectacular.

Maybe also do a curved output to really immerse things.

Shorthrow would also be good for integrating speakers into.

LED lumens are different (perceived brighter). My 500-lumen is great in the dark. The 800-lumen I've used works even with some light in the room. 1000-lumens of LED goodness would be just fine (srs). Plus you can just slap on some ambient light paint if you want daytime viewing capabilities:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...asy-ambient-light-rejecting-screen-paint.html

They still need to up the output of LED though to get it to compete, plus what's the word on replacing LED lighting in them? Their output will decrease over time (I've seen some murmurs that LEDs seem to degrade faster, people are saying they're seeing substantially less output after a year or two, and seems like most people treat it as though you have to replace the whole projector with LED ones).

Plus normal projectors have improved. There's some good models for ~$500-800, that are native 1080p, have cheap bulbs (one has $99, the others are ~$169), 3D, etc.

The PF1500 is good but has issues. One is it has horrible input lag (even the "gaming" mode has 100ms, and it has I believe over 150 normally). Its bad enough that I believe Projector Central said they had to make sure and go through a receiver with audio-delay/sync capabilities just to keep movies synced properly, so gaming, PC use is going to be awful.

Not only that, but its basically at the lower point for output. People are saying its finally good enough to be really useable, but cheaper projectors are having 1500-2000 lumen output, and replacing their bulbs is much less expensive than in the past.

 

[BurnItDwn]

1000 lumens is not that great unless you can make your house a total blackout cave

however that thing is pretty tiny

I have a light controlled environment, and my projector is 1300 lumens (DLP), and it looks brighter than the sun during some scenes.

I have it running in dim theater mode with the light level down quite a bit, and its still super bright.

something around 500 lumens is more than enough for a blackout cave, for a normal basement room with 1 window, 1000 lumens is plenty for ~ 100 inches.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

Black levels are either not seen or looking terrible. Just buy a flat panel TV and be done with it.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Black levels are either not seen or looking terrible. Just buy a flat panel TV and be done with it.

If you want the best black levels and image quality, then CRT front projection is the way to go .... also expect loud fans, HUGE projectors, lots of heat and power usage, but .. you can get insanely good quality and black levels.

 

[Chapbass]

Black levels are either not seen or looking terrible. Just buy a flat panel TV and be done with it.

110" flat panel TV and be done with it? :\

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

That is impressive. Would doing shorthrow also help with output, meaning, if its closer to the wall it could offer similar image with lower lumen output?

Not exactly, no. All else being equal the lens will determine how bright an image is, not the distance to the screen.

If I have two projectors with a fixed zoom lens -- one short throw projector shooting a 100" screen from 5 feet away, the other a long throw projector shooting the same 100" screen from 10 feet away. The lumen output would be nearly identical.

Most home theater projectors have a wide zoom range. In that case brightness changes drastically within the zoom range. Lumen output drop is nearly linear from max zoom (biggest image possible) to min zoom (smallest image) from a single distance.

Using our example above. Instead of two projectors with a fixed lens, we have one projector with a 2x zoom lens. Now we can project an 100" image from either 5 feet or 10 feet by adjusting the zoom. The difference though it will be nearly half as bright projecting a 100" screen at 10 feet, vs 5 feet.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

As for the projector in the OP. It's a toy for families that want something in the living room for their kids. Hence the built in streaming apps and easy hookup.

The nearly fixed zoom lens (1.1x?) guarantees people are just going to shoot the image on their wall. Especially if the thing gets moved around a lot, which it might given the target audience. So I doubt they put that much effort into picture quality. The contrast ratio listed is just silly.

Don't get me wrong. Cool toy. Just not the future.

 

[Rakehellion]

Nah, this is the future

http://www.sony.com/electronics/projectors-4k/lspx-w1s

Seen one in person running 4K uncompressed footage, it looked like 2D VR, I shit you not.

The future? It looks like a computer from the 60's.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

If you want the best black levels and image quality, then CRT front projection is the way to go .... also expect loud fans, HUGE projectors, lots of heat and power usage, but .. you can get insanely good quality and black levels.

I have two CRT projectors

... and two digital projectors.

My main home theater room has a 120" wide Cinemascope screen (acoustically transparent, too). :biggrin:

 

[darkswordsman17]

Not exactly, no. All else being equal the lens will determine how bright an image is, not the distance to the screen.

If I have two projectors with a fixed zoom lens -- one short throw projector shooting a 100" screen from 5 feet away, the other a long throw projector shooting the same 100" screen from 10 feet away. The lumen output would be nearly identical.

Most home theater projectors have a wide zoom range. In that case brightness changes drastically within the zoom range. Lumen output drop is nearly linear from max zoom (biggest image possible) to min zoom (smallest image) from a single distance.

Using our example above. Instead of two projectors with a fixed lens, we have one projector with a 2x zoom lens. Now we can project an 100" image from either 5 feet or 10 feet by adjusting the zoom. The difference though it will be nearly half as bright projecting a 100" screen at 10 feet, vs 5 feet.

Ah, thanks for the info.

 

[Kaido]

Lengthy but good review of the LG PF1500 vs. PF1000U:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXFCj4S1gk8

 

[ponyo]

Interesting. I was about to order LG PF1500 until I discovered this thread. Now I'm not sure anymore. PF1000U would be great in my bedroom. $850 vs $1300. My last experience with projectors is Infocus X1 so I'm really out of the loop.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I have two CRT projectors

... and two digital projectors.

My main home theater room has a 120" wide Cinemascope screen (acoustically transparent, too). :biggrin:

I read quite a few posts back in the day on ht forum / av science forum about people doubling up on their barco CRT projectors to boost the brightness and getting some amazing high res, high refresh, fantastic projection....

I just run a single, as I'm limited to a 7 foot 6 inch ceiling height in the basement.
My HC3800 is still going strong, and while black levels leave a lot to be desired, im hoping to last a good 3 or 4 more years before I upgrade.

I just have a 106 inch electric screen, speakers are below, though in a perfect world, I would have gone with acoustically transparent screen and put the speakers behind it ...

my next house will have a better floor plan to allow for a more perfect home theater, but, Im not planning to move any time soon ...

 

[Kaido]

I briefly played with a buddy's PF1000U last night. Currently on Amazon for $1,165:

http://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-PF1000U-Theater-Projector/dp/B014OUD5KS/

Initial thoughts:

1. Scaling is awesome. For every foot you pull it away from the wall, it basically doubles in size. 15" from the back edge of the unit to the wall gives you a 100" picture. Feels like a TV from BTTF or something, just really neat. About the size of a loaf of bread, or a shoebox.

2. Focus wheel acts like an anamorphic lens, kind of has that bubble/egg effect when you try to focus it. And like all LED projectors I've played with, focusing it bites. This is better than most of the mini-LED projectors I've played with, but not nearly as good as as my Benq HT2050, which has really excellent control over focus using the dial wheel. Focus also wasn't as sharp as I wanted; text from the computer looked kind of funny (very aliased). Another thing I'll have to play with after we get it tweaked out. Also, my PC was running Windows 7 and his HTPC will be running Windows 10, so I'm curious to see how that affects the fonts as well (I haven't setup a Win10 HTPC yet).

3. I watched an episode of The Flash on it via Netflix on a yellow wall at about 60". No calibration or anything, just plugged it into a PC to test. The dark seemed to have a lot of trouble (got muddy) like a low-end flat-screen TV. Colors also weren't popping OOTB. Oddly, it seemed to look better when it got bigger. Especially since most LED projectors are lower lumens, they typically look better at smaller sizes, so this was an unusual effect for me after having played with a bunch of LED projectors. My buddy is painting his wall a neutral gray today, so I'll get some more hands-on time with it this weekend after we get it setup on a nice, smooth gray wall & calibrate it properly.

4. The lens & mirror were dusty already. Didn't seem to affect the picture quality at all, but since there's no cover (which would impede the light from projecting out), this will become a maintenance item that you'd want to get a microfiber cleaning cloth for. Although, I never both cleaning my front projectors & they get dusty, because it never has noticeably affected the picture. I would not buy this projector if you have small children or pets because it is an open design...easy to spill drinks on, get fur on, get fingerprints on, etc. Maybe it would work if you had some sort of shelf setup with a tall lip on the front to prevent kids from touching it. Also, you'd want a table, dresser, or shelf that is very heavy or sturdy so it doesn't get bumped & mis-aligned.

I like the concept quite a bit. I'll have to play around with it more before I make a judgement about the quality. Having just purchased a lamp-based projector, the lumens & focus abilities are night & day from an LED projector like this (way better on the lamp-based model). But my HT2050 is also ginormous & requires a ceiling or wall mount, whereas this can simply be dropped in front of any flat, light-colored surface, which is super cool. This sector is exploding this year...Screen Innovations (daylight-capable black projector screens that go for around $5k+) has a really neat setup with a Sony 4K UST:

http://www.screeninnovations.com/

HiSense is making a big push as well. They have a $7k setup coming later this year that has a Laser UST, Fresnel screen, and wireless surround-sound bar setup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG99nxuEQvw

Early reviews of that are pretty good:

http://televisions.reviewed.com/content/hisense-laser-cinema-first-impressions-review

 

[Kaido]

My review after setting it up on an HTPC with a light gray wall:

1. imo this projector is crap. I'll get that out of the way first.
2. Noisy in a different way than most projectors. Turn your speakers up!
3. Mirror & lens both get dusty. Hasn't shown up on the picture yet, tho.
4. Black levels are terrible. Last time I saw black levels this bad was on an ultra-cheap 50" Coby HDTV. Muddy.
5. 1080p is useless for computer usage (Office etc.) for a variety of reasons that I'll get to, including:
6. Focus is garbage. You cannot get it sharp, period.
7. One side or the other will be out of focus, can't get the whole picture in focus.
8. Focusing is like an anamorphic lens, does a horizontal egg effect.
9. Any kind of tilt or side angle creates a curve on one side, like the top left will curve down.
10. Colors do not pop; picture is not very bright. My 500-lumen Viewsonic PLED-W500 from 2011 is WAY brighter and has WAY better color, which isn't saying much since I only find the W500's picture acceptable in complete darkness.
11. In regular mode, it has noticeable mouse lag. Very annoying.
12. Going back to 1080p for desktop use, I had to change it to 720p to be readable. Then increase the DPI under Windows 7 up to 150%. But since you can't 100% focus it & since one side is always unfocused, it looks like crap. This is NOT a good projector for Powerpoints or other text-based stuff.

I recently picked up a bulb-based 1080p projector, the BenQ HT2050, and it blows this out of the water a million percent. The focus is amazing, the brightness is great, it's just not a UST. It does come in a short-throw configuration (BenQ HT1085ST), but that's not as convenient as an ultra-short-throw model.

If you have low expectations for picture quality & a need for putting it a foot and a half away from the wall, this is pretty much the only game in town right now if you want a 1080p LED UST. Philips has a 720p model out, and there are a couple non-LED models available from BenQ & Optoma as well. I don't know if any of them would fare better or not. I've seen ceiling-mounted UST non-LED projectors that look way better (smartboards), so I don't think the crappy picture is the case for all of them, but definitely this one in particular is not one I would personally buy.

My recommendation, having been hands-on with it 3 times so far, is to skip this model. Sounds like my buddy is going to be returning it.

 

[ControlD]

Thanks for the detailed review Kaido!

I was looking at this projector as a possibility when I was building my theater setup, but I saw some of the same complaints in user reviews that you also noticed. I think this is a good (maybe "interesting" is a better fit) first try, hopefully future models work out the problems.