Searching for: Thin and narrow true sine-wave UPS >300VA.

[Jeff7]

I'm looking for a replacement UPS for an old machine, but there are some dimensional restrictions, and I want pure sine wave output.
Other necessary feature: Ability to configure the UPS to turn itself off after 2 minutes without the need for a PC to remain connected.

- I've found that modified sine wave UPSes have differing outputs. The old unit's peak-to-peak output was about 300V. A TrippLite unit I tried was putting out close to 380V pk-pk, but the duration of the on-time is shorter. The machine doesn't like that voltage; it likely gets rectified and filtered, and the resulting voltage is probably too high so the machine errors out and shuts down that subsystem.
If I run the machine directly off of sine-wave line voltage, it works perfectly fine, so I think it's that excessive voltage peak that's tripping it up.

- There are dimension restrictions, and no UPS manufacturer or seller lets you sort by dimensions.
15" long x 6" wide x 3.5" thick
I think I could manage 4" thick if the outlets are on the back, not the top.

- The original UPS was only 300VA, so I don't need very much.

Does anyone happen to have come across a reasonably-priced slimline UPS with sine wave output?
(Or else a modified sine wave output that is only 300V pk-pk, which I'm sure is a spec that's even more difficult to find.)

Search tools on popular UPS makers (that I know of) are surprisingly limited, APC in particular. TrippLite at least offered numerous filters. APC offers very few, and the type of sine wave output isn't one of them. With them, you can filter by load, voltage, and runtime. That's about it. Some manufacturers don't even list the type of waveform their UPS produces.

 

[heymrdj]

Depends on how important the UPS being able to shut off without the computer signaling it is to you. APC does this via the smartslot, a card that is the computer for the UPS. No vendor offers the ability without some sore of management card. Management cards take up a considerable amount of space inside the unit.

Sine Wave is the other issue, sine wave units run hot and they don't come in small sizes. Tripp Lite makes the smallest I know and they still don't fit in your space. If you can come up with a 1U amount of space (length, depth, and height) then you have tons of options for small sine wave units with network connectivity. Otherwise your only option is going to be to find a really good modified sine wave unit like you had before.

 

[Jeff7]

Depends on how important the UPS being able to shut off without the computer signaling it is to you. APC does this via the smartslot, a card that is the computer for the UPS. No vendor offers the ability without some sore of management card. Management cards take up a considerable amount of space inside the unit.

Sine Wave is the other issue, sine wave units run hot and they don't come in small sizes. Tripp Lite makes the smallest I know and they still don't fit in your space. If you can come up with a 1U amount of space (length, depth, and height) then you have tons of options for small sine wave units with network connectivity.

It'd be bad for the UPS's batteries if it doesn't have the self-shutdown feature. Normally, the machine sends a 12V signal to the UPS to tell it to shut down when it's being turned off for the day. That starts an internal 2min countdown in the UPS. Then the main power switch gets turned off, which cuts the 120V feed.
Very few UPSes that I know of can take a 12V signal as an input; the original UPS had a very non-standard DB9 interface, including one to accept that type of signal.
Since most new UPSes can't use that kind of signal, I need the timer shutdown functionality, otherwise the UPS would remain running every day until its battery was drained.

The TrippLite unit I got appears to have the functionality I need: It can be configured to turn off after some amount of time via the software.

Otherwise your only option is going to be to find a really good modified sine wave unit like you had before.

And that means hoping that a manufacturer will grant me access to a representative who knows what terms like "peak to peak voltage" or "modified sine wave" mean. :\


Or resign to having to plop down $700 for a 300VA UPS from the OEM. Bleh.



:hmm:
1U space.....maybe something could be fudged in somewhere.

....and I just looked up standard 1U dimensions. That's huge compared to the available space.
Network connectivity wouldn't help much anyway; there's a basic Linux PC in this machine, but it's running proprietary software and there's not a whole lot I can do with it. I'd like a basic standalone UPS.

 

[heymrdj]

It'd be bad for the UPS's batteries if it doesn't have the self-shutdown feature. Normally, the machine sends a 12V signal to the UPS to tell it to shut down when it's being turned off for the day. That starts an internal 2min countdown in the UPS. Then the main power switch gets turned off, which cuts the 120V feed.
Very few UPSes that I know of can take a 12V signal as an input; the original UPS had a very non-standard DB9 interface, including one to accept that type of signal.
Since most new UPSes can't use that kind of signal, I need the timer shutdown functionality, otherwise the UPS would remain running every day until its battery was drained.

The TrippLite unit I got appears to have the functionality I need: It can be configured to turn off after some amount of time via the software.



And that means hoping that a manufacturer will grant me access to a representative who knows what terms like "peak to peak voltage" or "modified sine wave" mean. :\


Or resign to having to plop down $700 for a 300VA UPS from the OEM. Bleh.



:hmm:
1U space.....maybe something could be fudged in somewhere.

....and I just looked up standard 1U dimensions. That's huge compared to the available space.
Network connectivity wouldn't help much anyway; there's a basic Linux PC in this machine, but it's running proprietary software and there's not a whole lot I can do with it. I'd like a basic standalone UPS.

There are a few that can do what you're asking without a management card, but they normally have a compromise. One example is the Tripplite can't be programmed to power itself on and power on the loads after the shutdown timer initiated.

The management cards aren't about the network port in your case, though that is how you connect to them and program them. The management cards give you a programmable system. You can configure outlet groups to power off and on, setup timers, and even have the unit trigger relays to work with analog equipment like valves and switches.

 

[Jeff7]

There are a few that can do what you're asking without a management card, but they normally have a compromise. One example is the Tripplite can't be programmed to power itself on and power on the loads after the shutdown timer initiated.

The management cards aren't about the network port in your case, though that is how you connect to them and program them. The management cards give you a programmable system. You can configure outlet groups to power off and on, setup timers, and even have the unit trigger relays to work with analog equipment like valves and switches.

I saw some of those addon cards, I think one was >$200.
They offer a thousand features. I only need two, but I'm still paying for the other 998.

I might have to run this machine without a UPS for awhile. :\
I don't know if management will go for a $700 UPS right now, even if it is for a $100k piece of fairly critical equipment.

There's a chance I'll be able to fix the old UPS though. It could be a cheap optoisolator that's the problem. At least I hope that's it.



(Note: TrippLite does have a 600VA sinewave UPS, BC600SINE. It's 5.25" thick. I can barely accommodate 5" in a pinch. 5.25" will not fit.
I looked at some rackmount units. They're definitely way too big to fit.)


I would have expected that UPSes nowadays would have more programmability. The 13-year-old original UPS has a Motorola microcontroller with 128 bytes of EEPROM. Microcontrollers are quite capable and ubiquitous these days. I guess they wring out every last penny possible though.

 

[heymrdj]

I saw some of those addon cards, I think one was >$200.
They offer a thousand features. I only need two, but I'm still paying for the other 998.

I might have to run this machine without a UPS for awhile. :\
I don't know if management will go for a $700 UPS right now, even if it is for a $100k piece of fairly critical equipment.

There's a chance I'll be able to fix the old UPS though. It could be a cheap optoisolator that's the problem. At least I hope that's it.



(Note: TrippLite does have a 600VA sinewave UPS, BC600SINE. It's 5.25" thick. I can barely accommodate 5" in a pinch. 5.25" will not fit.
I looked at some rackmount units. They're definitely way too big to fit.)


I would have expected that UPSes nowadays would have more programmability. The 13-year-old original UPS has a Motorola microcontroller with 128 bytes of EEPROM. Microcontrollers are quite capable and ubiquitous these days. I guess they wring out every last penny possible though.

There's really no room for a 1u? Even outside of the machine? You could also look at a used eBay chassis and put new batteries in it. I got a 150$ APC 2200 unit with management card and put 250$ of batteries in it and it's still performing great 1.5 years later.

 

[Jeff7]

There's really no room for a 1u? Even outside of the machine? You could also look at a used eBay chassis and put new batteries in it. I got a 150$ APC 2200 unit with management card and put 250$ of batteries in it and it's still performing great 1.5 years later.

Outside maybe. I'm trying to keep it inside if possible.

I can go fairly long, maybe 15" in one dimension.
But then I've got <5" for the depth, and only about 8" for the width.
The 1U units I saw were roughly 15x15", and then only ~2" thick.
Even a 500VA rackmount is a bit over 11" deep.


But, I might have a solution: Cyberpower's DB9 input includes something close to what I need, which is to use a 12V signal on one pin to command the UPS to turn off after 2 minutes.
I guess that's a semi-standard command type?
It's not the same pinout, but I can work around that easily enough.

Props to Cyberpower too: Their tech support rep was able to answer questions about modified sine wave waveforms and even peak-to-peak voltages.


First thing though: Replace the optoisolators on the old unit. That's a cheap and simple thing to try.
...and come to think of it, I don't remember if I've tested the machine itself to see that it's outputting 12V like it should. D'oh.


...in testing, I never see a +12V signal coming from the control box. Weird. That means that every time the machine is shut down, the UPS will simply continue running, powering a few connected subsystems, until its battery is exhausted and it turns off.
(I've got a second similar machine. Turns out that its UPS was also beeping at me during shutdown, but it was a different model of UPS with a very quiet speaker that I just wasn't ever able to hear until now. Go figure.)

Time to check with the manufacturer of the machine. That seems like it's a harsh way to treat batteries in a UPS, with a daily draining.
Watch this all be fixed by a simple configuration setting. But hey, at least I learned some things about UPS interfaces.

 

[Micrornd]

Hmmm, I can tell you this much -

I use an older APC SU3000RM 5u unit that uses a serial cable to connect to my server. (The 5u unit has much longer run-time than the 2u and 3u units that replaced it)

With APC's Powerchute Business Edition software installed, I can set the following -
1) Time Required For Shutdown Sequence (x minutes)
2) Low Battery Signal (time remaining) (x minutes)
3) Command File Enabled (gets run on low battery signal) (y/n)
4) OS Shutdown Duration (x minutes)
5) OS Shutdown Type
6) Enable OS Reboot (y/n)
7) UPS Turn On Battery Capacity
8) UPS Turn On Delay (x minutes)
9) Enable SMTP E-mail (y/n)
10) Enable Logging (y/n)

So when power is lost, my UPS shuts down my server when it's remaining runtime reaches the time I pick.
The UPS turns itself off (to keep from depleting it's batteries entirely) and it sends me an e-mail telling me what's happening and makes entries into its log indicating what has happened..

When power is restored, my UPS turns itself back on (when charged to the power level I pick), which it turn restarts my server (as long as it's bios is set to "restore prior power state" or "on").

It needs no "management card" for this.
No management card is needed if there is a direct connection to the UPS (in my case serial).
If a management card were to be installed, it would allow me to manage the UPS from another computer on the network or remotely from almost anywhere.
That is what they are required for with APC Rackmount UPS's, not for direct management.

 

[heymrdj]

Hmmm, I can tell you this much -

I use an older APC SU3000RM 5u unit that uses a serial cable to connect to my server. (The 5u unit has much longer run-time than the 2u and 3u units that replaced it)

With APC's Powerchute Business Edition software installed, I can set the following -
1) Time Required For Shutdown Sequence (x minutes)
2) Low Battery Signal (time remaining) (x minutes)
3) Command File Enabled (gets run on low battery signal) (y/n)
4) OS Shutdown Duration (x minutes)
5) OS Shutdown Type
6) Enable OS Reboot (y/n)
7) UPS Turn On Battery Capacity
8) UPS Turn On Delay (x minutes)
9) Enable SMTP E-mail (y/n)
10) Enable Logging (y/n)

So when power is lost, my UPS shuts down my server when it's remaining runtime reaches the time I pick.
The UPS turns itself off (to keep from depleting it's batteries entirely) and it sends me an e-mail telling me what's happening and makes entries into its log indicating what has happened..

When power is restored, my UPS turns itself back on (when charged to the power level I pick), which it turn restarts my server (as long as it's bios is set to "restore prior power state" or "on").

It needs no "management card" for this.
No management card is needed if there is a direct connection to the UPS (in my case serial).
If a management card were to be installed, it would allow me to manage the UPS from another computer on the network or remotely from almost anywhere.
That is what they are required for with APC Rackmount UPS's, not for direct management.

Hey, winky, it's a cute setup you have there. I'm well aware of what Powerchute can do, like how it can't run on a custom linux system that's powering a piece of industrial hardware.

You need a management card to be able to do this off of a system that can't run a management software, because in effect, you're using the PC as a "management card" as you so stupidly put it. Did you notice anything in my replies below vs your reply? I mentioned out you could login and do things with unit while systems were offline (we use backups satellite lines). Your idea is using a script. Once your systems are offline, you're at the mercy of the script running on the UPS. You can't manage boot ups. You can't delay or hurry power up. You have to have a PC constantly hooked up by serial to manage it in the first place. And you have to have a PC with rights over the rest of the equipment to send it notifications to shut down because the application can only shut it's own server down without those access rights. Can your PC access relays and environmental monitoring? Can your PC manage a limited power up that has occurred after the power has went offline and the server has shutdown?

You're using your PC as a management card, and it's cute. It runs a script that you create in the software, and once it kicks off you and your equipment are along for the ride. It works for living room lab servers. That would not fly in an industrial environment.

 

[Jeff7]

*sigh*
After all this, I quite unexpectedly got approval to buy the expensive semi-proprietary UPS.
Go figure.
Justifying expenses is something I can't find a pattern in. Sometimes $100 is too much, sometimes $2,000 gets an immediate purchase order with next-day shipping to boot.

I'll still try replacing the optoisolators in the old unit, since that's a cheap thing to attempt.

 

[heymrdj]

*sigh*
After all this, I quite unexpectedly got approval to buy the expensive semi-proprietary UPS.
Go figure.
Justifying expenses is something I can't find a pattern in. Sometimes $100 is too much, sometimes $2,000 gets an immediate purchase order with next-day shipping to boot.

I'll still try replacing the optoisolators in the old unit, since that's a cheap thing to attempt.

Lol I'll never understand it either. 100$ for a cheap monitor to get more real estate for productivity? No. 300$ SSD and 190$ battery to refresh the T510 workstation? Get it right away.

 

[Jeff7]

Lol I'll never understand it either. 100$ for a cheap monitor to get more real estate for productivity? No. 300$ SSD and 190$ battery to refresh the T510 workstation? Get it right away.

I guess it depends on what money's available, what story can be told, and.....lots of other factors I'm not privy to all the time.

Drat, I was kind of hoping to at least see the waveform of the Cyberpower UPS. (I'm still a bit surprised that the peak voltage on the TrippLite was so high.)

But I guess this way works too.