Sea-based ballistic missile defense works, again -- sorry, naysayers!

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rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Whitling
Not my beloved Tang, Can. What makes you say that? The U.S. had money when it went into the space race. The economy is in the process of crashing. I wish we could have another program like that too, but the glory days are over. Get ready to find out how the rest of the developed world lives.

I've been to the underdeveloped parts of the world and see that they spend all sorts of money on space and military research.

Should China have spent all that money on their space program on feeding the hungry instead (as nice as that sounds...)? Or should they try to keep their brainpower at home, advance their research, etc.? Same with India. The benefits sometimes are much greater than something that sounds nice right now.

NASA has developed thousands upon thousands of things in so many fields. Consumer products as well as engineering techniques & knowledge. Even today, experience and research at NASA works in things such as oil pipelines in the earth, which is the farthest from space you can get! I wonder how many people have been saved from medical imaging technology, which I believe is a NASA by-product. Probably a lot more than instituting some useless other program.

It would be cool if we all hugged each other, held hands, and sing songs of peace together, but it's not that time yet for our civilization.

Nobody is saying that money spent on military won't benefit in other ways. But if you really want to advance certain technology, why spend money on something else and hoping that something else MAY advance that certain technology. If you want medical imaging technology, just spend the money in researching medical image technolgy. I mean justifying military/ballistic missile defense spending because it advance other technology just sound like a streach to me. First of all, you don't know what techology it may advance, second you don't know how much the technology will advance relative to the spending, and lastly you don't know if the money could've been better spent in direct research for that technology you want to advance.

And that brings us the second point, yeah it's not the time for our civilization to hug each other and sing songs of peace together, and we know clearly who our enemy is, and those people are not conventional enemies like we fought in the WWII and cold war. Don't you think it's time to think about how to strategically strenghten our defense against the new enmey? Especially in this time of huge budget deficit, shouldn't we make our money count?


 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Whitling
Not my beloved Tang, Can. What makes you say that? The U.S. had money when it went into the space race. The economy is in the process of crashing. I wish we could have another program like that too, but the glory days are over. Get ready to find out how the rest of the developed world lives.

I've been to the underdeveloped parts of the world and see that they spend all sorts of money on space and military research.

Should China have spent all that money on their space program on feeding the hungry instead (as nice as that sounds...)? Or should they try to keep their brainpower at home, advance their research, etc.? Same with India. The benefits sometimes are much greater than something that sounds nice right now.

NASA has developed thousands upon thousands of things in so many fields. Consumer products as well as engineering techniques & knowledge. Even today, experience and research at NASA works in things such as oil pipelines in the earth, which is the farthest from space you can get! I wonder how many people have been saved from medical imaging technology, which I believe is a NASA by-product. Probably a lot more than instituting some useless other program.

It would be cool if we all hugged each other, held hands, and sing songs of peace together, but it's not that time yet for our civilization.

Nobody is saying that money spent on military won't benefit in other ways. But if you really want to advance certain technology, why spend money on something else and hoping that something else MAY advance that certain technology. If you want medical imaging technology, just spend the money in researching medical image technolgy. I mean justifying military/ballistic missile defense spending because it advance other technology just sound like a streach to me. First of all, you don't know what techology it may advance, second you don't know how much the technology will advance relative to the spending, and lastly you don't know if the money could've been better spent in direct research for that technology you want to advance.

And that brings us the second point, yeah it's not the time for our civilization to hug each other and sing songs of peace together, and we know clearly who our enemy is, and those people are not conventional enemies like we fought in the WWII and cold war. Don't you think it's time to think about how to strategically strenghten our defense against the new enmey? Especially in this time of huge budget deficit, shouldn't we make our money count?

How do you know who the enemy in the future is going to be? If you want to stay at the stop, then you can't give up. You have to keep working on it.
I would be happy if we didn't have to do any weapons research and instead completely focus on improving human life. But again, the world doesn't work like that.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Whitling
Not my beloved Tang, Can. What makes you say that? The U.S. had money when it went into the space race. The economy is in the process of crashing. I wish we could have another program like that too, but the glory days are over. Get ready to find out how the rest of the developed world lives.

I've been to the underdeveloped parts of the world and see that they spend all sorts of money on space and military research.

Should China have spent all that money on their space program on feeding the hungry instead (as nice as that sounds...)? Or should they try to keep their brainpower at home, advance their research, etc.? Same with India. The benefits sometimes are much greater than something that sounds nice right now.

NASA has developed thousands upon thousands of things in so many fields. Consumer products as well as engineering techniques & knowledge. Even today, experience and research at NASA works in things such as oil pipelines in the earth, which is the farthest from space you can get! I wonder how many people have been saved from medical imaging technology, which I believe is a NASA by-product. Probably a lot more than instituting some useless other program.

It would be cool if we all hugged each other, held hands, and sing songs of peace together, but it's not that time yet for our civilization.

Nobody is saying that money spent on military won't benefit in other ways. But if you really want to advance certain technology, why spend money on something else and hoping that something else MAY advance that certain technology. If you want medical imaging technology, just spend the money in researching medical image technolgy. I mean justifying military/ballistic missile defense spending because it advance other technology just sound like a streach to me. First of all, you don't know what techology it may advance, second you don't know how much the technology will advance relative to the spending, and lastly you don't know if the money could've been better spent in direct research for that technology you want to advance.

And that brings us the second point, yeah it's not the time for our civilization to hug each other and sing songs of peace together, and we know clearly who our enemy is, and those people are not conventional enemies like we fought in the WWII and cold war. Don't you think it's time to think about how to strategically strenghten our defense against the new enmey? Especially in this time of huge budget deficit, shouldn't we make our money count?

Yes, you have a point, however sometimes it's difficult to even know if those technologies even exist. You can make a rough guess of the technology and experience earned in NMD - you're chunking a rocket at another rocket, using a plane with lasers on it, etc. It seems to be very broad, that's one of the reasons I support it. It will also provide a lot of experience for people to start and integrate into other fields. I'd rather be spending money to have an incredibly advanced technology than spending money to put extra soldiers on the national borders. I'd rather have the billions we spent on Iraq on research projects at home.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

How do you know who the enemy in the future is going to be? If you want to stay at the stop, then you can't give up. You have to keep working on it.
I would be happy if we didn't have to do any weapons research and instead completely focus on improving human life. But again, the world doesn't work like that.

What, the hundreds and thousands of nuclear warhead we have now isn't enough in your opinion to protech us from conventional enemy? Why focus on weapon research when we can better invest our money in intelligence, covert operations and International cooporation to deal with terrorism, our main enemy?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

How do you know who the enemy in the future is going to be? If you want to stay at the stop, then you can't give up. You have to keep working on it.
I would be happy if we didn't have to do any weapons research and instead completely focus on improving human life. But again, the world doesn't work like that.

What, the hundreds and thousands of nuclear warhead we have now isn't enough in your opinion to protech us from conventional enemy? Why focus on weapon research when we better invest our money in intelligence, covert operations and International cooporation to deal with terrorism, our main enemy?

And that is all fine until a a groupd terrorist manage to hijack a nuclear missle. The chance maybe small of this occuring, but still well within the realm of being possible.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

How do you know who the enemy in the future is going to be? If you want to stay at the stop, then you can't give up. You have to keep working on it.
I would be happy if we didn't have to do any weapons research and instead completely focus on improving human life. But again, the world doesn't work like that.

What, the hundreds and thousands of nuclear warhead we have now isn't enough in your opinion to protech us from conventional enemy? Why focus on weapon research when we better invest our money in intelligence, covert operations and International cooporation to deal with terrorism, our main enemy?

And that is all fine until a a groupd terrorist manage to hijack a nuclear missle. The chance maybe small of this occuring, but still well within the realm of being possible.

So let's focus on spending the money to get rid of those terrorist rather than worry about every single possible action they may take against us, shall we? And while we are on that topic, maybe it's also time to consider options other then military might to deal with those terrorists and their ideology. Maybe a little more diplomacy, a little more international cutural sensitivity and less interferance with regional politics for the benefits of the United States?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

How do you know who the enemy in the future is going to be? If you want to stay at the stop, then you can't give up. You have to keep working on it.
I would be happy if we didn't have to do any weapons research and instead completely focus on improving human life. But again, the world doesn't work like that.

What, the hundreds and thousands of nuclear warhead we have now isn't enough in your opinion to protech us from conventional enemy? Why focus on weapon research when we can better invest our money in intelligence, covert operations and International cooporation to deal with terrorism, our main enemy?

US possessing nuclear weapons probably didn't prevent Iraq from launching missiles at people during the first Gulf War.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

How do you know who the enemy in the future is going to be? If you want to stay at the stop, then you can't give up. You have to keep working on it.
I would be happy if we didn't have to do any weapons research and instead completely focus on improving human life. But again, the world doesn't work like that.

What, the hundreds and thousands of nuclear warhead we have now isn't enough in your opinion to protech us from conventional enemy? Why focus on weapon research when we better invest our money in intelligence, covert operations and International cooporation to deal with terrorism, our main enemy?

And that is all fine until a a groupd terrorist manage to hijack a nuclear missle. The chance maybe small of this occuring, but still well within the realm of being possible.

So let's focus on spending the money to get rid of those terrorist rather than worry about every single possible action they may take against us, shall we? And while we are on that topic, maybe it's also time to consider options other then military might to deal with those terrorists and their ideology. Maybe a little more diplomacy, a little more international cutural sensitivity and less interferance with regional politics for the benefits of the United States?

Show me where diplomacy has worked with terrorists in the past.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

How do you know who the enemy in the future is going to be? If you want to stay at the stop, then you can't give up. You have to keep working on it.
I would be happy if we didn't have to do any weapons research and instead completely focus on improving human life. But again, the world doesn't work like that.

What, the hundreds and thousands of nuclear warhead we have now isn't enough in your opinion to protech us from conventional enemy? Why focus on weapon research when we better invest our money in intelligence, covert operations and International cooporation to deal with terrorism, our main enemy?

And that is all fine until a a groupd terrorist manage to hijack a nuclear missle. The chance maybe small of this occuring, but still well within the realm of being possible.

So let's focus on spending the money to get rid of those terrorist rather than worry about every single possible action they may take against us, shall we? And while we are on that topic, maybe it's also time to consider options other then military might to deal with those terrorists and their ideology. Maybe a little more diplomacy, a little more international cutural sensitivity and less interferance with regional politics for the benefits of the United States?

Show me where diplomacy has worked with terrorists in the past.

Not talking about diplomacy with terrorist, but diplomacy with other countries to get them working with us to deal with terrorism.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

How do you know who the enemy in the future is going to be? If you want to stay at the stop, then you can't give up. You have to keep working on it.
I would be happy if we didn't have to do any weapons research and instead completely focus on improving human life. But again, the world doesn't work like that.

What, the hundreds and thousands of nuclear warhead we have now isn't enough in your opinion to protech us from conventional enemy? Why focus on weapon research when we can better invest our money in intelligence, covert operations and International cooporation to deal with terrorism, our main enemy?

Who knows, maybe it isn't. Maybe we'll need something besides nuclear weapons. Not all weapons research is going to be as destructive as a nuclear weapon. Anyways, those things also don't advance research in other fields.
The world isn't a fairy tale. Everyone does weapons research and it would be super nice if everyone hugged each other and said 'weapons are bad! booo weapons!', but that is never going to happen.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

How do you know who the enemy in the future is going to be? If you want to stay at the stop, then you can't give up. You have to keep working on it.
I would be happy if we didn't have to do any weapons research and instead completely focus on improving human life. But again, the world doesn't work like that.

What, the hundreds and thousands of nuclear warhead we have now isn't enough in your opinion to protech us from conventional enemy? Why focus on weapon research when we better invest our money in intelligence, covert operations and International cooporation to deal with terrorism, our main enemy?

And that is all fine until a a groupd terrorist manage to hijack a nuclear missle. The chance maybe small of this occuring, but still well within the realm of being possible.

So let's focus on spending the money to get rid of those terrorist rather than worry about every single possible action they may take against us, shall we? And while we are on that topic, maybe it's also time to consider options other then military might to deal with those terrorists and their ideology. Maybe a little more diplomacy, a little more international cutural sensitivity and less interferance with regional politics for the benefits of the United States?

Show me where diplomacy has worked with terrorists in the past.

Not talking about diplomacy with terrorist, but diplomacy with other countries to get them working with us to deal with terrorism.

Well we should do that, but that has nothing to do with weapons research. You can do both at the same time without the expense of the other.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Instead of telling him he has no clue and telling him to shut up why don't you explain to him why NK is a legit threat based on your knowledge and experience. I know being stationed over in Japan with the AF you might have a perspective that many of us don't regarding that area.

Fine. I was having a bad day and didn't have time to post much.

Several facts come to mind when discussing North Korea's threat.

First, they tested a long range missile in 1998 which overflew the Japanese mainland and landed in the Pacific. Quite obviously, they have some capability to construct long range missiles, and it's doubtful they have sat on their laurels congratulating themselves for that test five years ago.

Second, the CIA, normally more conservative in analysis than military sources (for various reasons), has publicly stated that the North Koreans likely possess one to two nuclear weapons, and it has been widely speculated that North Korean reprocessing of spent fuel rods could yield enough weapons-grade material for several additional weapons. North Korea has admitted publicly that they were operating an enriched uranium research project, and that they were/are reprocessing spent fuel rods.

Third, North Korea is widely regarded as the most common proliferator of ballistic missile technology in the world, which relates to the first point above. Recent stories coming from Iraq add more credence to that statement as well. The sale of SCUDs to Yemen a short while ago was additional proof. It seems plausible that such proliferation goes hand in hand with research. Such research could easily encompass nuclear warheads.

Fourth, Kim Chong-il is eccentric at best, a lunatic at worst. He is far from predictable, shows a daily disregard for the well-being of his people, runs perhaps the most repressive government ever to blacken the earth's surface, and has millions of troops and weapons poised just north of a city containing 25 million people (or thereabouts). His actions have already spurred the Japanese towards renouncing their peaceful Constitution or at least bending the rules enough to augment their military power. The prospect of Japan rearming scares the daylights out of the Koreans (both north and south), the Chinese (both red and blue), the Filipinos, and most other countries in Asia.

Fifth, and finally, there is no defense against intercontinental ballistic missiles in existence, aside from a system of very questionable ability around Moscow. There exist defences against suitcase nukes (cops, border patrol, Customs), short range missiles (Patriot PAC-3), cruise missiles (Patriot again and other SAMs), and bombers. It seems to me that there's a glaring omission in the defense against nuclear weapons which will be plugged by land- and sea-based defense systems like the SM-3 and AEGIS.