SCSI vs IDE100

TheSHANK

Member
Feb 19, 2002
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I do video editing on my PC and I got a SCSI HD right now. The controller manual states scsi 68pin 16bit interna (up to 40mbs). I'm not to familiar with SCSI, but have some knowledge in IDE. Apparently I need more space, and SCSI Hds are so much more pricier. If I Get a ATA100 controller card and a 7200Rpm ide drive, will it be as fast as the current SCSI? I don't want it to be slower where my video editing lags and skips frames. Is the SCSI burst speeds of 40mbs or sustained? Whereas I know ATA 100 has 100mbs burst. Please fill me in anyone currently I am looking at a promise ata100 and 7200rpm 40 gig to replace my existing adaptec scsi and 4gig hd

thank you
 

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
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I'd use the 4gig hdd for your OS and the IDE drive for anything else. IDE drives have a faster continues data flow then SCSI, so for Video editing you would be better off using an IDE drive, especially if your video files are large. SCSI is know for extremely fast access time, and dependability. If you cant justify just sticking with SCSI then go with IDE.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
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Odd, from what I've seen SCSI tops IDE in continuous data speed. However the difference in speed isn't much more than a 1 year delay until IDE has caught that particular drive. Going from a 4GB to a 40GB makes a good amount of difference.

I have a 4.5GB U2W SCSI HD (running at just W because of the card) that can only do 9MB/sec but has access times in the 7mS range. My two IDE drives, one 20GB, the other 60GB, can pull down something in the range of 23MB/sec and 35MB/sec however have access times closer to 9mS. IDE seems to be struggling to get lower than 9mS. All of these drives are 7200RPM. Biggest difference? Age. (that and the capacity/platter)

Where SCSI would also be able to pull off a win vs. IDE is in what spin speeds are available. IDE tops out at 7200RPM, however SCSI can be had in 15000RPM flavors that would max out your SCSI card by themselves. However expect to pay dearly for that performance in cost, noise, and heat.

This is where IDE wins big: cost. Lets face it, IDE is the cheapest thing on the block. A high end IDE drive is still pretty damn cheap, and is likely fast enough for what you want to do.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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IDE drives have a faster continues data flow then SCSI

That's backwards, SCSI is better for streaming data and IDE is almost all burst speed.

If video editing was my job I'd find a way to get a 3 (atleast) way RAID setup with SCSI160 drives, RAID 5 if I could afford large enough disks (since in 5 you lose the equivilent to 1 disk worth of space for parity) or RAID 0 and a good backup solution.

Since you only have 40M/s SCSI drives/controller IDE would probably be faster though.

This is where IDE wins big: cost. Lets face it, IDE is the cheapest thing on the block. A high end IDE drive is still pretty damn cheap, and is likely fast enough for what you want to do.

IDE drives are cheap for a reason, I've seen more IDE disks fail than I've seen total SCSI disks, and I work at a place that used to be all SCSI; even the SCSI drives that are 8+ years old still run like they're brand new.
 

TheSHANK

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Feb 19, 2002
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Yeah. This isn't anything major video editing, it's basically titles in the front of preexisting vids. Like doing wedding tapes and putting a beginning title section etc in the video. So going from Scsi to ata100 i shouldn't be seeing a lag should i?

shank
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
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<< IDE drives are cheap for a reason, I've seen more IDE disks fail than I've seen total SCSI disks, and I work at a place that used to be all SCSI; even the SCSI drives that are 8+ years old still run like they're brand new. >>



I won't disagree there. I had a Micropolis 1991 drive (9.1GB SCSI, 5.25" FH, hot as hell) that was made in 1992 and ran $8,000 at the time. It still worked and had no bad sectors when I sold it last year.

Oh, and another place where SCSI had a tendancy to absolutely kill IDE: Multiple drives. I have four SCSI drives on a single card, for a short time I had 5. (I have a total of 7 drives in my system, 2 IDE, 1 floppy, 4 SCSI). With a wide SCSI card you can pack in 15 drives. RAID and multi channel SCSI cards can do even more.
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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So going from Scsi to ata100 i shouldn't be seeing a lag should i?

I doubt it, unless the data is streamed from the disk constantly it'll probably run better because the IDE disk will be able to do higher speed burst transfers.
 

Whitedog

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 1999
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Just to comment on the 9ms access time on the IDE drives... there isn't an IDE hard drive on the planet that has better than 10 or 11ms average access... don't believe me, run HD Tach on them. It's a very accurate tool. Don't fall out of your chair when it scores 14+ms.
My 100gig 7200 prm IDE was scoring 12.5ms while my 18gig 10,000 rpm SCSI was scoring 7.5ms

It's not even a close call.

Those access time numbers HD manufacturers claim on their IDE drives are bogus. Probably the time it takes to access the first cluster of the hard drive, it's certainly not average.
 

TheSHANK

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Feb 19, 2002
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So now this old 4 gig 68pin i have in my computer. I wanna keep the speed i get when editing little videos. Should I stay with the 68pin scsi or get a ata100 card and Ata 100 hd, 7200 rpm hs?

shank
 

Whitedog

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 1999
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Well, you've never really indicated how much disk space you REALLY need...

If it were me, I would stick with SCSI if I could. If 18gig's is enough, you can get a good 7200rpm 18gig scsi for about the same price you're going to pay for the IDE stuff. You don't "have" to buy a new controller if you don't want to... You'd be Fine using the new SCSI drive on your old controller, 40MB/s is fast enought for what you're doing. The access time and reliability is priceless.

A new 7200 RPM ATA100 drive with ATA100 card is going to be faster in all aspects than your old 4gig scsi drive, even in access time... so Yes, you could do that as well.

To sum it up, I don't think you have anything to be worried about. Whatever you decide to buy is going to be plenty fast enough... if you say the 4gig drive you have now is fast enough.
 

TheSHANK

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Feb 19, 2002
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Sweet thanks for the input guys. I just edit titles with like premier and then output the video back on to a tape.
I need at least 9 gig cuz my 4 gig fills fast with video, so i figure 40 gig for like $80 compared to a scsi hd 9 gig fr around 70 you know?
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
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I might be misunderstanding something here, does your system have UW SCSI on board but no IDE, or does it have IDE and SCSI onboard?
 

Smags87

Member
Mar 4, 2002
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scsi is exceptional quick in my exspirence....but i use ide-raid.

WHY?

because its cheaper, scsi is overkill for low end workstations

enough said
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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because its cheaper, scsi is overkill for low end workstations

At the rate I see IDE disks die at work, I'll pay the extra cash for quality SCSI hardware.
 

Bglad

Golden Member
Oct 29, 1999
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Yeah. This isn't anything major video editing, it's basically titles in the front of preexisting vids.

If this is all you are doing, IDE will be fine. We just bought 24 SCSI drives for our company and had to research whether we really needed SCSI... we did. This SCSI idea trickles down from the pro editing equipment manufacturers. We are using Avid and ProTools. The difference is on those systems, you are doing heavy editing where all raw footage is loaded and stored on the drive, broken into hundreds even thousands of pieces and rearranged in the edited form you have specified. The computer has to check the edl list for timing parameters of edits and pull all these little pieces of video and audio from the raw footage rearranging them into the final cut. The final cut is not stored on the hard drive, just the edl list. If it stored the final cut, it would increase the HD space necessary by the shooting ratio or ratio of used to thrown out materials. When you watch the final cut, the hard drive is pulling all the cuts from the raw footage in real time according to the edl list. It also has to be prefetching the next cut while playing the previous. Thats a lot of HD work and this is why the seek time of SCSI is good for these systems. But remember the minimum configuration for these systems is video and 8 tracks of audio with up to 256 virtual audio tracks.

IDE drives have a faster continues data flow then SCSI, so for Video editing you would be better off using an IDE drive
Probably true for what he is doing but you can see from the explanation above that it is not true if you are doing heavy professional editing.

In our case, we send out the edl list on a disk to the optical company to actually do the physical work of the final cut according to the edl so our computers aren't used for that. In your case, you probably have a final conformation step or something to put the final cut together before outputting your video. But this step isn't done while watching the video so you are not fighting the HD for resources between putting the edit together and output to your screen. In this case the high sustained data rate of IDE will again be more advantageous for getting the job done quickly.

Anyway, the point is your system isn't doing nearly this much work. If you are doing light editing or just playback with overlayed titles, you really don't need to spend the money on SCSI IMO.


At the rate I see IDE disks die at work, I'll pay the extra cash for quality SCSI hardware.
In an office, computers hold critical information that can't be lost (hopefully it is backed up) and causes employee downtime. Editing workstations only hold job specific data for a few weeks then the final product is output and all other materials purged from the machine. Work data is all in the edl and is backed up daily. Quite a big difference in the way they are used. Failure is not as big an issue and when you can buy 3-6 IDE drives for the cost of 1 SCSI it becomes a financial issue. The opinions you are expressing are job specific and don't apply here. You guys need to look at the purpose for which he asked the question and not just turn it into a debate about the speed of SCSI vs. IDE. That info is available in a million places on the internet.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
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Where I can see reliability being an issue in systems w/ heavy but short term storage is when an expensive system goes down, you're losing money for every second it's down. And with the heavy use the likelyhood for death increases.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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In an office, computers hold critical information that can't be lost (hopefully it is backed up) and causes employee downtime. Editing workstations only hold job specific data for a few weeks then the final product is output and all other materials purged from the machine

My belief was that in this specific instance, the PC was a home PC used also for work (or paid hobby, or whatever) and if a drive dies in a home machine it's a lot more work to get a replacement. In a corporate environment you have spares around that can be thrown in instantly, or you can get drives shipped very quickly.

The opinions you are expressing are job specific and don't apply here. You guys need to look at the purpose for which he asked the question and not just turn it into a debate about the speed of SCSI vs. IDE.

They apply because he's asking, if he buys an IDE drive and it dies 2 days later, it's a hassle to get a replacement and delays whatever project he's working on. I believe it's worth the money for the extra reliability of the SCSI drives, especially since he has a fairly old SCSI controller anyway that won't get full speed out of newer drives.
 

Bglad

Golden Member
Oct 29, 1999
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So the answer is he doesn't need SCSI for what he is doing and the decision becomes based on the cost to risk ratio.

But why do you make the assumption that SCSI doesn't fail and why is it any harder to replace a SCSI drive if it fails than an IDE. This certainly is not true. In fact we find that the 10,000 rpm drives have a very finite lifespan, although we've learned to estimate their usage hours and therefore predict their failure. It comes back to cost/risk and the risk does not outweigh the cost given that SCSI doesn't offer necessary performance. So in a home situation, would you rather have to deal with replacing a SCSI drive in addition to the extra backup/loading steps. Or would you rather run over to CompUSA and grab any IDE drive for ~$100 and be good to go.

There are also human risks with SCSI that IDE doesn't have. I can't count how many times we've had some assistant pull a SCSI drive without unmounting it and blow the contents of the drive. I guess this isn't a problem if it is his only drive though.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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But why do you make the assumption that SCSI doesn't fail and why is it any harder to replace a SCSI drive if it fails than an IDE.

I don't make that assumption, but the chances of an IDE drive failing are a lot higher than a SCSI one, IME.

I can't count how many times we've had some assistant pull a SCSI drive without unmounting it and blow the contents of the drive.

Including user error throws a whole extra aspect on the thing, and can't be accounted for. He has the same chance of doing something stupid with a SCSI drive as he does with an IDE one.
 

MrConclusion

Junior Member
Mar 24, 2002
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I do a lot of video editing in dual-stream MPEG2 format using Premier 6.0. I've changed to exclusively ATA100 & ATA133 drives, and never have any dropped frames... during 60-minute captures! Although SCSI is probably faster, and has better simultaneous read/write capability, in the real world todays IDE's must be fast enough. These drives are cheap enough to remove and archive one that has a very important project on it. Yeah, I know, but don't worry that's not the only backup!

No reliability issues have come up yet. For heat issues with long duty cycles, I use 3-fan ANTEC HD bay coolers. The only drives I've had problems were killed by the combination of Windows and Promise Fasttrak raid controllers in a matter of sometimes hours, or weeks at most.

I hope this isn't too non-technical, but I thought you might be able to use some practical info.

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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This coming from the same guy with a thread entitled RAIDs are killing my drives... what's up? who has a set of 4 IDE drives he can't keep going long enough to use them =)