Screw the UN

[dawks]

Originally posted by: rufruf44
Does anyone here realize that the UN is not supposed to be a tool for the US? It stands for the United Nation for crying out loud. US hold a very strong position as a permanent member of the security council but we still can get outvoted easily in it too. If most of the member doesn't want US to attack Iraq, then UN should abide to the majority. Now whether US will comply or not to the UN resolution is not anyone bussiness but the US, as well as all the consequences associated with such act.
Personally, I think Saddam should just be silenced quietly by a special ops group. Much cleaner, cheaper and eliminate any political bartering back and forth.

This thread was truely pathetic untill that post. Thanks for bringing some reality back to the forums..

And Moonbean, I hole heartedly agree with you.. Those freaking Americans have Nukes.. They might use them on Britian, or Japan (AGAIN).. The rest of the world should take those fvckers out just because they have them, and they MIGHT use them.

Wake up people. Just because your big doesnt mean you can knock everyone around. Remember when Germany tried to do that?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

We could do that, but if they are going to have safe harbor there, ther real problem needs to be taken care off.

I repeat we knew where an Al Qaeda cell was located in northern Iraq. We believed Saddam had little knowledge of THAT cell. In part b/c our Kurdish cohorts control that area well inside the northern No-Fly zone. We chose not to take them out. I forgot the reason but apparently Al Qaeda cells are not always important.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
Look on the bright side: this might allow our War Mongering administration to lower its blood pressure to its peacetime normal of 225/90. And get back to hunting al queda...remember, the bastards who hit us?

Seems overly lengthy and I wouldn't believe it would take that long to get started. After all, they've been over this sand dune before.

We continue to hunt down Al queda in afganistan and pakistan. Special ops are heading out to Yeman. Oh and iraq is sheltering Al queda members. Next.

those are your allies the kurds

 

[darren]

"I don't care how many people have to die, I must feel safe. I can't live with the thought that a nuke may go off in my city. Please please make the fear stop. Kill everybody. Kill them now. "

exactly.

 

[VFAA]

This is taking too long. Either they let the UN inspectors get in NOW or just blow them to pieces.

 

[fluxquantum]

*yawn*

 

[StageLeft]

I can't find a similar story on cnn or msnbc.

If that's true it won't go down and Bush will attack. I can't believe that the UN doesn't realize this.

 

[goob2k]

Originally posted by: darren
"I don't care how many people have to die, I must feel safe. I can't live with the thought that a nuke may go off in my city. Please please make the fear stop. Kill everybody. Kill them now. "

exactly.

Genocide traditionally hasn't been a good idea, no matter who you're killing.

 

[jjones]

So the UN gives Iraq a year to cooperate or else? Or else what? Or else they'll give them another year to cooperate, that's what. Just the sort of definative, forthright action we've come to expect from the UN.

Edit: Oh, BTW, I'm sure Saddam is still rolling around on the floor. He surely can't be able to pick himself up, he's laughing so hard.

 

[snooker]

IMO most of the UN members do not feel the way the US does towards tracking down terrrorists wherever they might hide. I consider the iraqi regime a terrorist regime just like the taliban was. Soooo why wouldn't the US do everything in it's power to get rid of that setup? The man already has chemical weapons and has proved that by gasing his fellow Iraqi's. Watch, when the US does attack, Iraq WILL respond with everything it has to defend itself, even use Chemical and biological weapons. And while they are at it, they will launch a scud or 2 at Isreal as well as Saudi Arabia and Kuwaite. Maybe even Iran, who knows.

Anyone who will do that to the countries around it (Already did once) has to be taken out of that position.

Can't the Iraqi People Fire him? Oh ya, they do not have a say so.

 

[Nitemare]

I think it is about time that America and the UK pulled out of the UN and formed another one, this time don't invite everyone in the world just the nonstupid countries...

The UN is suck and has been for years. I for one would be glad to be removed from such a pathetic organization.

 

[ToBeMe]

Apparently reaction to this is beginning to filter out................

They just had Daschle on TV and he said, "If this is true, the UN has been blinded by the lies of Saddam yet again but we (the us) will not sit idly by and allow this to take place"

And McCain "The only thing this changes, if this is indeed fact, is who goes in with us when we enter Iraq. As the President stated, we will not allow Saddam to fool us once again."

Again, this was on TV so I have no link as of yet but will post one................or I'm sure someone will as soon as it is printed/posted................

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: snooker
IMO most of the UN members do not feel the way the US does towards tracking down terrrorists wherever they might hide. I consider the iraqi regime a terrorist regime just like the taliban was. Soooo why wouldn't the US do everything in it's power to get rid of that setup? The man already has chemical weapons and has proved that by gasing his fellow Iraqi's. Watch, when the US does attack, Iraq WILL respond with everything it has to defend itself, even use Chemical and biological weapons. And while they are at it, they will launch a scud or 2 at Isreal as well as Saudi Arabia and Kuwaite. Maybe even Iran, who knows.

Anyone who will do that to the countries around it (Already did once) has to be taken out of that position.

Can't the Iraqi People Fire him? Oh ya, they do not have a say so.

Apparently he gassed a Kurdish village while he was at war with Iran.

 

[JellyBaby]

Is it a huge stretch to think that Iraq is sheltering Al queda members? Do you think we do not have agents in iraq right now? Do you think this is all just a whim of the president?

If Iraq was sheltering al queda we would certainly know it. If you recall that happened definitively in Afghanistan with the Taliban. We gave them time, they refused, we went in and cleaned house. Here, there are only tidbits of al queda inside Iraq, nothing more. For all we know some al qaeda went home to their families and have given up terrorism (optimistic, I know).

No, I don't believe we have much in the way of indigenous intel inside Iraq's borders. If you recall our intelligence setup went from a "men in the field" approach to a laid back high-tech information gathering mechanism.

No, I don't believe our constant meddling in the mid east is the whim of Bush or those before him. But the real motives are not revealed to me. I'm apparently a peon, not privy to those details. Thus, I'm forced to look for the answers myself.

The federal government exists to keep us out of wars, not to start them.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

"Leader of the Free World" used to mean something. But after decades of abusing that influence we are held in such low regard that we cannot rally world support to remove tyrants like Saddam. You can whine all you want but the truth is our foreign policy record is why we are in this predicament. And it is a predicament. All of you that bellow about how we can go it alone . . . volunteer yourselves and all of YOUR taxes to support the overthrow and extended occupation of Iraq. If we use Iraqi oil revenue to defray the costs it's history repeating itself ala 50 years ago when we anointed US oil companies with 40% of the Iranian market.

If we enter Iraq without UN support not only will it be against the will of the people in the US but the world will have confirmation of the general BS spouted by our detractors . . . the most dangerous rogue state in the world is the USA. Why even bother going to the UN if Bush was intent on this end run? Don't you people realize that going to that forum and making his speech while following this course of action makes us look like hypocrites?! The world's problem is Saddam but the lying bastard looks reasonable at the moment and we don't.

Only the uninformed believed the UN would have begun the complicated process of ferreting out Saddam's weapons program in days or weeks. I don't blame Bush. He can't know everything but somebody around him should be fired for the lack of a realistic timetable. The world is watching as we rant about a meglomaniac that flaunts the UN, but which country is on record saying "we don't need to wait on the UN" and "regardless of what the UN does we will do whatever we feel needs to be done"? The Bush admin needs to STFU and try actual diplomacy. I'm sure Colin Powell is on the job but our public posture hurts our standing.

 

[Balthazar]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby

Oh and iraq is sheltering Al queda members.

All I've seen is allegations people associated with al qaeda may be, or have traveled through, the country. You would engage in a costly war with Iraq based on that imperfect knowledge? So eager to widen the conflict are we?

Why make another enemy and expand the battle to a dubious front, when we have plenty already and still haven't cleaned up in Afghanistan and the others?

wtf are you smoking?
"make another enemy" you don't think they already ARE our enemies?
Hello, this thing on? Iraq IS THE ENEMY....not WILL BE....IS....IS, get that, IS, pre-existing....

God the lack of understanding onthis topic is only foreshadowed by the amount of uninformed people who wish to speak as if they ARE informed....

 

[dexvx]

Al Qaeda in Iraq... oh no. Sorry to say it, but not every country has 100% control of their borders and little control over what people in the middle of nowhere do. There are Al Qaeda cells being sheltered in over 70+ countries around the world, and Iraq is no exception. Oh I forgot, the US also shelters an Al Qaeda cell, maybe we should attack that POS country.

Its funny that you poeple are up in arms against Iraq violating UN sanctions. Because to my recollection, Isreal has violated every single UN sanction passed against them, and the US does squat and you people seem to turn a blind eye to that. It seems that it is just conveniant that Iraq violated UN sanctions as a pretext to attack him. The UN grows weak beacuse there are freaking 5 security council members that are self-centered and cant agree on anything. If you put them together at a banquet, they'd probably starve to death bickering over who gets what.

My point is, if you want the UN to toughen up, have it toughen up on all fronts, not just Iraq. There are a lot of places that the UN needs to toughen up on, and Iraq only being one of them. You have to realize that you also need to have military action in places that dont directly effect you.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."
?Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

 

[JellyBaby]

Hello, this thing on? Iraq IS THE ENEMY....not WILL BE....IS....IS, get that, IS, pre-existing....

Tell me, how has Iraq or Saddum threatened you, Balthazar? Please feel free to use as many words as you wish but I ask you refrain from using heresay, "what if" scenarios and anything else that can't be substantiated.

 

[Moonbeam]

Bali, I think the decision has been taken that we are simply too powerful to have to worry anymore what the world thinks. We're going to make them eat American whether they like it or not. We are going to remake the world in our image because we are right. Might makes it so. Truth has become irrelevant.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Bali, I think the decision has been taken that we are simply too powerful to have to worry anymore what the world thinks. We're going to make them eat American whether they like it or not. We are going to remake the world in our image because we are right. Might makes it so. Truth has become irrelevant.

Hasn't this always been the case Moonbeam? Since when has truth been relevant?

 

[exp]

Ah, another U.N.-bashing thread. Excellent.

The UN is taking fast steps to becoming irrelevent.

The U.N. passed the point of total irrelevancy a long time ago and is now no more than dead weight--an absolute waste of time and money that burdens all donor states. When the U.S. economy was thriving and its budget was healthy these fruitless expenditures could be overlooked, but not anymore. In fact the U.N. is worse than merely useless at this point--it is actually a tool in the hands of anti-American parties (indeed it is only because of the organization's laughably ineffectual nature that it has failed to accomplish anything in that context).

It is *inconceivable* to me that the U.S. continues to fund an organization that actively seeks to humiliate America and frustrate efforts to safeguard its national interests. Maybe America should pull the plug on any and all support it now provides to the U.N....then we'll see the meaning of true irrelevancy.

At any rate, nobody should be surprised by this new "1-year plan" development. After all, the only thing more predictable than U.N. lethargy is Iraq's deft exploitation of that weakness. Any bets on when Saddam will first block weapons inspectors? Assuming this 1-year plan is implemented I would say late April is a good over/under. I'd feel good about taking the under if I had any confidence that weapons inspectors would actually go for the jugular by attempting to enter Saddam's palaces. But since they will likely be content to merely go through the motions of a comprehensive inspection program without stepping on any dictatorial toes Saddam may not even have to take action for some time.

Of course, after Iraq inevitably bars inspectors from certain locations the U.N. will pull its people out, puff up its chest in indignation, and blow a lot of hot air in the form of another half-dozen resolutions it has no intention of enforcing. Meanwhile its member states can fatten up on illicit business dealings with Iraq. U.N. delegates will break their arms patting each other on the back in congratulations for the "tremendous and admirable multilateral effort", even though they accomplished absolutely nothing. *yawn* So very, very predictable...

This habitual public emasculation of the U.N. by Iraq is so funny it would almost work as an amusing series of anecdotes (in the mold of the Road Runner's repeated outfoxing of Wile E. Coyote) if it weren't for the sad ending: a WMD attack on the U.S. or Israel. But of course that will only be considered sad by some people...the bulk of U.N. delegates will no doubt find the mushroom cloud rising over an American city as hilarious as those sent up by Wile E. Coyote's nose-dives into the floor of Grand Canyon.

 

[Moonbeam]

Hasn't this always been the case Moonbeam? Since when has truth been relevant?
----------------------------

I thought that was pretty well summed up in Dune. Nothing can stand against the will of God. And please don't remind me that I don't believe in God. I don't believe in your God or unGod. The will of God, the soul of man, it is what we really are when what we are not dies. Truth is like a vortex; you can swim against it's current but eventually everything will get sucked down. It appears in pure form with every human birth.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

You're wrong, Moonbeam. America will not go down that road again. I can believe it b/c our country was founded on the ideals of truth and justice. The equality of all people is not quaint. It is the law and our ethos. We falter from time to time but at the end of the day we will stand up to tyrannts abroad and AT HOME. WE started the UN b/c we genuinely believe everyone has a right to peace and security. We don't have to impose our will on free countries b/c they want to emulate our best virtues (note I did not say they want to be us). Closed or otherwise oppressive regimes should expect consistent public rebuke along with sanctions appropriate to punish wrongdoing while uplifting those who live under such rule.

America has failed to uphold its best virtues when our leaders follow principles other than those embodied by the US Constitution and the UN Charter. The ideal for a world view is many nations, many perspectives NOT the view of the country with the largest military or most money. Japan did what they did b/c they could. Germany did what they did b/c they could. Not only will we refuse to abuse our power to act at will, we will stand against all who would impose their will on others by force. Only the UN carries the moral authority to act in such a matter. Authority granted to it by the signatories to its charter and its 5 permanent Security Council members who are charged with executing such action to the benefit of ALL countries.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: dexvx
"Naturally, the common people don't want war. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."
?Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

excelent quote even though its from Goering, and so true in this context, Iraq was not a threat to the US before the Gulf war militery wise and now people think they are a threat even though their army is 1/5 of what it was.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: dexvx
"Naturally, the common people don't want war. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."
?Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

excelent quote even though its from Goering, and so true in this context, Iraq was not a threat to the US before the Gulf war militery wise and now people think they are a threat even though their army is 1/5 of what it was.

WMD requires very little in the way of military power to deliver to a target. they're more of a threat now than they were, assuming they actually have the things (which i'm pretty sure they do)