SCOTUS to review affirmative action

[Throckmorton]

Apparently it's 81% of students in the top 10% right now. Back when I went to UT, it was about half. I probably wouldn't get in now.

 

[Wreckem]

Apparently it's 81% of students in the top 10% right now. Back when I went to UT, it was about half. I probably wouldn't get in now.

The range of top 10% is so staggering.

I have met some top 10%er UT grads who are really smart. I have met others who are total fucking morons and I don't know how they survived this long.

 

[HomerJS]

There is nothing wrong with looking at social-economoc factors, just not race. There is no reason well off African American should get bonus points over a poor Asian, but AA does just that.

That's my point I don't disagree with you. But again most people bitching about AA were unwilling to address the underlying issues years ago. You would have been one of the reasonable people at the table instead of the Bell Curve and National Review crowd of that day.

 

[theevilsharpie]

On the other hand, there is still enormous inequity in terms of racial prosperity in our country, and any suggestion otherwise will surely be moronic. While I'm fine with arguments against affirmative action in the general sense, what I don't like is the people who say that we should move past it because the problem is solved. It's clearly not. And while I'm not sure affirmative action is the solution, and I suspect it may not be, I'd feel a bit better if SOME sort of alternative was moving forward.

There's no doubt that there's still a wide achievement gap between whites and certain minority groups. However, that gap exists AFTER decades of affirmative action. And if that gap in achievement is due to racial discrimination, why have Asians been so successful in American institutions, oftentimes moreso than whites?

Has affirmative action made any difference at all?

 

[woodie1]

There's no doubt that there's still a wide achievement gap between whites and certain minority groups. However, that gap exists AFTER decades of affirmative action. And if that gap in achievement is due to racial discrimination, why have Asians been so successful in American institutions, oftentimes moreso than whites?

Has affirmative action made any difference at all?

Excellent point.

 

[OutHouse]

good i hope it kills minority- and women-owned businesses as well. that little perk has skewed the bid process.

not a M/WBE?? in the can your bid goes.

 

[mcmilljb]

AA as a policy has failed. Getting a few extra minorities into nice schools has not helped minorities as a group improve their economic status. Major schools are the only place where AA really comes into play. If you don't meet standards at a community college (where the biggest increase in minorities going to college is), you're not getting in or you're taking remedial classes. You're wasting a lot of money if a schools like University of Michigan or University of North Carolina have to provide a lot of remedial classes. They have to have a cut off even for AA. Also think about this. Are minorities really better off now then they were when AA started? My belief is that they're not enough to justify continuing a failed policy.

However it has shown us faults with our education systems. The minorities who do get into bigger programs under AA with lower "credentials" do just as well as their white counterparts. I've seen several studies backing this claim. It shows us that our system puts an over emphasis on credentials for admission. You really just have to good enough, but we like to put that bar really high because we do have to cut people. That extra high bar actually hurts everyone because it gives students with more resources a much better chance to succeed over someone who has less. A lottery system would actually be fairer and cut costs for schools and potential students. Not everyone can afford SAT tutoring. Some students chose or need to work rather than do an extracurricular activity.

This also shows us that some schools have really optimized their programs get their students ready for the real world. If the top programs are consistently the same schools, then other schools should be studying what they do and adopting it. Resources should also be allocated to programs which have high needs in the community and state. If you need more doctors, you should be allocating more resources to the medical school so they can support higher enrollment. If you need more engineers, you do the same for the engineering school.

Increasing available enrollment and access will do more for minorities than just holding a few spots for them. It'll actually increase their application and desire to be in those programs. It shows that they're a person just like the other applicants. Plus we need to work on the programs that strive to help students do better when they lack the resources of others.

 

[davmat787]

good i hope it kills minority- and women-owned businesses as well. that little perk has skewed the bid process.

not a M/WBE?? in the can your bid goes.

Can you expand on this a little please? I assume you are referring to bids for government procurement or services for the .gov? Is there a % of bids that have to be won by minority/women business? Or am I making the wrong assumptions here?

Thanks.

 

[mcmilljb]

Can you expand on this a little please? I assume you are referring to bids for government procurement or services for the .gov? Is there a % of bids that have to be won by minority/women business? Or am I making the wrong assumptions here?

Thanks.

I can't remember if it is required or not, but most people with govt contracts will send bids to minority/women businesses. My mom works for a company that has govt contracts related to Medicare, and they have to try at least from what I hear from her. Sometimes it works out, sometimes you get some shady businesses looking to make a buck off big govt.

 

[davmat787]

I can't remember if it is required or not, but most people with govt contracts will send bids to minority/women businesses. My mom works for a company that has govt contracts related to Medicare, and they have to try at least from what I hear from her. Sometimes it works out, sometimes you get some shady businesses looking to make a buck off big govt.

Got it, thanks for the clarification. Bids should be blind IMO, and be awarded to the winner who meets all qualifications at the lowest price. Isn't that what the bid process is for after all?

 

[dmcowen674]

good i hope it kills minority- and women-owned businesses as well. that little perk has skewed the bid process.

not a M/WBE?? in the can your bid goes.

This

There are so many fake shell companies just for this purpose.

 

[Double Trouble]

I'm a bit torn on affirmative action. For the individual case, it seems a bit morally and legally questionable. Why should someone have less of a chance of getting into school/getting a job/whatever have less of a chance just because they are a white dude?

On the other hand, there is still enormous inequity in terms of racial prosperity in our country, and any suggestion otherwise will surely be moronic. While I'm fine with arguments against affirmative action in the general sense, what I don't like is the people who say that we should move past it because the problem is solved. It's clearly not. And while I'm not sure affirmative action is the solution, and I suspect it may not be, I'd feel a bit better if SOME sort of alternative was moving forward.

I think I'm on the same page as you. I simply can't buy into the concept that the way to combat racism is to use racism (AA). Clearly there are issues that need to be addressed, but I haven't seen any evidence that AA actually helps address those issues.

Personally, I think changing the way most school systems are funded would help address the divide better than any AA garbage. As long as property taxes are used to fund schools, you're always going to have lousy schools in poorer areas, which means minority students are going to disproportionately negatively impacted. Parenting and culture might be the biggest barrier to education for a lot of people, but it doesn't help when the schools are run down, can't afford a lot of the tools needed, and can't attract some of the best teaching talent.

 

[cybrsage]

If being poor and disadvantaged is the problem, then the solution is to setup a system to aid the poor and disadvantaged. If most of the people who are poor and disadvantaged happen to be minorities, then it aids them the most. That is how it SHOULD be.

Using skin color as a delineator is racist. Imagine if the schools said whites were to be promoted instead of blacks or asians. That would be racist. If it is racist to say whites should be promoted based on their skin color, it is also racist to say blacks or asians should be promoted based on their skin color.

 

[Atreus21]

Education is one of the great equalizers we have. Again if loudmouth conservatives had brought ideas to the table back during the formation of AA maybe they would have more grounds to bitch.

The fact that white boyz who make up 30% of the population but control over 95% of the wealth probably have little cause for concern.

Clearly, there's a conspiracy among white boyz to cheat and steal and discriminate.

 

[peonyu]

Clearly, there's a conspiracy among white boyz to cheat and steal and discriminate.

Of course there is...[Just forget about Asian people though, since they dont get AA since they actually get the grades needed to get into school...].

 

[ss284]

The minorities who do get into bigger programs under AA with lower "credentials" do just as well as their white counterparts. I've seen several studies backing this claim.

Can you provide some links? I've read the complete opposite.

 

[HomerJS]

Clearly, there's a conspiracy among white boyz to cheat and steal and discriminate.

Clearly since everyone has equal opportinuty in this country white males clearly are 95% smarter and work 95% harder then everyone else.

A lot of it is intrenched incumpancy. You are willing to remove race as one of a number of factors in an effort to increase diversity but the system of bonus points because mommy or daddy is an alumnus is fine.

 

[ichy]

The goals are diversity and giving people a change who have been historically shut out of the system.

I'm going to be honest and admit that I don't give two shits about diversity. If a fairer, more merit-based admission system results in less diversity then that's absolutely fine with me. We should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes.

 

[hal2kilo]

This

There are so many fake shell companies just for this purpose.

We lost a contract that way. Wife of the government guy managing programs not directly under him but very related, bid on a contract against us. Gee, I wonder how she knew about the contract. Anyway, they performed abomominaly and we got the contract back 2 years later.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[SZLiao214]

I say leave AA alone until after my step-daughter gets her degree. We've already noticed she's going some breaks due to being a legal alien from Asian.

Being Asian works against you in AA.

I remember reading somewhere that at UCLA they change sat scores to help balance things out. The Asian would get -300 while blacks would get +300 back when the max score was 1600.

 

[PokerGuy]

We should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes.

This.

 

[zinfamous]

If being poor and disadvantaged is the problem, then the solution is to setup a system to aid the poor and disadvantaged. If most of the people who are poor and disadvantaged happen to be minorities, then it aids them the most. That is how it SHOULD be.

Using skin color as a delineator is racist. Imagine if the schools said whites were to be promoted instead of blacks or asians. That would be racist. If it is racist to say whites should be promoted based on their skin color, it is also racist to say blacks or asians should be promoted based on their skin color.

well, LBJ did open up the "War on Poverty," which was quickly squashed by Nixon so that he could make room for his "War on Drugs."

what a wonderful success that has been.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Affirmative action as a policy is a nice theory, but the problem has always been one of culture. If someone grows up in a culture where education is actively promoted, they'll be inclined to pursue advanced education. If they grow up in a culture where education is actively looked down on, they're probably not even going to graduate high school. The importance that a culture places on education is directly proportional to the amount of education someone from that culture is going to pursue. In many places in America, cultures tend to isolate from one another based along racial lines, so we tend to see culture as a function of race, but that's not always the case; a white boy raised in the projects has a lot more in common with his predominantly black social group than he does with some white kid from Scottsdale. But you can't build an affirmative action plan around culture since that's a lot harder to define than a skin color. And that's why affirmative action as a policy, as well-intentioned as it may be, will never work.

Instead of focusing on throwing money at traditionally disenfranchised groups (primarily black people), they need to take steps to make education seem a viable path for someone who has grown up in a culture where education is frowned upon. How do you do that? I have no idea. But until you change the stigma of education within those cultures, you're not going to see people raised in them pursuing degrees at an increased rate.

 

[mcmilljb]

Can you provide some links? I've read the complete opposite.

I can give you a book that discusses it; The Shape of the River. I would like to see where you're hearing black students don't do as well at higher tier colleges. That just seems counterintuitive. However blacks aren't doing as well in undergraduate programs at lower tier colleges. You can explain it by the simple fact that top tier black students are going to apply to the top tier colleges. Since you only need to be good enough, they complete their studies just fine and get the perks of top tier schools (connections, resume prestige, etc). The lower tier colleges don't get the best black students so you're going to get more students not doing as well plus less perks. If you improve the students by having them prepared for college, then you increase their chances of being successful during and after college.

 

[cybrsage]

well, LBJ did open up the "War on Poverty," which was quickly squashed by Nixon so that he could make room for his "War on Drugs."

what a wonderful success that has been.

A war on poverty, if done right, would do wonders. Of course, the line for poverty will simply move up (a certain percentage of the population will always be in poverty no matter what you do), but those in poverty will have it far better than those who are in poverty now.

Poverty in the US is already inflated - just look at most of the world, our citizens in what we call poverty eat every day and have color TV. That makes them far richer than much of the planet. Still, we do need to improve the lives of those we classify as impoverished in the US. Poverty breeds crime, less poverty, less crime.