SCOTUS to review affirmative action

[polarmystery]

I'm both hispanic (half-spaniard from mother) and black (half from father) and I HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE affirmative action laws. I have never used race to gain any kind of advantage. I have the same mindset as Cosby and Freeman.

 

[CanOWorms]

Affirmative Action can probably be refined, but the general concept is still needed for at least 10-20 more years.

It's also more than just correcting wrongs done to various minority groups. It's also about dismantling "white privilege" or "male privilege" and creating a more egalitarian society for the future of this country.

Affirmative Action probably has little negative effect on those who do not benefit from it. However, those who do not benefit from the current status quo suffer greatly.

Hopefully the Supreme Court doesn't make the US fall behind that of third world developing nations, many of which have much more aggressive affirmative action programs than the United States has ever had.

 

[TalonStrike]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washin...1/supreme-court-affirmative-action/53189086/1

Looks like the court (apparently minus Kagan) is set to review affirmative action admission policies at schools. This will be another interesting case to watch. Hopefully they'll do away with the abhorrent practice of racism disguised as a means toward a laudable end.

minus Kagan? Then there is no chance they will uphold Affirmative Action. I say good riddance. Anyone know when they will make their decision? I want to mark my calendar for this momentous day.

 

[zinfamous]

A war on poverty, if done right, would do wonders. Of course, the line for poverty will simply move up (a certain percentage of the population will always be in poverty no matter what you do), but those in poverty will have it far better than those who are in poverty now.

Poverty in the US is already inflated - just look at most of the world, our citizens in what we call poverty eat every day and have color TV. That makes them far richer than much of the planet. Still, we do need to improve the lives of those we classify as impoverished in the US. Poverty breeds crime, less poverty, less crime.

what's the deal?

have you had to be more rational now that monovillage has begun to assert the full crazy lately?

:hmm:

<--so confused

 

[zinfamous]

Affirmative action as a policy is a nice theory, but the problem has always been one of culture. If someone grows up in a culture where education is actively promoted, they'll be inclined to pursue advanced education. If they grow up in a culture where education is actively looked down on, they're probably not even going to graduate high school. The importance that a culture places on education is directly proportional to the amount of education someone from that culture is going to pursue. In many places in America, cultures tend to isolate from one another based along racial lines, so we tend to see culture as a function of race, but that's not always the case; a white boy raised in the projects has a lot more in common with his predominantly black social group than he does with some white kid from Scottsdale. But you can't build an affirmative action plan around culture since that's a lot harder to define than a skin color. And that's why affirmative action as a policy, as well-intentioned as it may be, will never work.

Instead of focusing on throwing money at traditionally disenfranchised groups (primarily black people), they need to take steps to make education seem a viable path for someone who has grown up in a culture where education is frowned upon. How do you do that? I have no idea. But until you change the stigma of education within those cultures, you're not going to see people raised in them pursuing degrees at an increased rate.

:thumbsup:

median housing cost? benefits for defined economically-deprived communities compared to their local region?

We've got piles of actuaries out there putting together these numbers for Big Joe Insurer, so the data is obviously there.

 

[Svnla]

..... they need to take steps to make education seem a viable path for someone who has grown up in a culture where education is frowned upon. How do you do that? I have no idea. But until you change the stigma of education within those cultures, you're not going to see people raised in them pursuing degrees at an increased rate.

Yup.

In certain group of minority, doing well in school is seem as "acting white", "being Uncle Tom", "sold out", "not being real", etc.

Look at Asian students. They are not any smarter but they have been told by their parents that their duties and responsibility are to do well in school or shame and humiliation to their family names otherwise.

 

[werepossum]

I'm a bit torn on affirmative action. For the individual case, it seems a bit morally and legally questionable. Why should someone have less of a chance of getting into school/getting a job/whatever have less of a chance just because they are a white dude?

On the other hand, there is still enormous inequity in terms of racial prosperity in our country, and any suggestion otherwise will surely be moronic. While I'm fine with arguments against affirmative action in the general sense, what I don't like is the people who say that we should move past it because the problem is solved. It's clearly not. And while I'm not sure affirmative action is the solution, and I suspect it may not be, I'd feel a bit better if SOME sort of alternative was moving forward.

Pretty much this. I'm a big critic of AA as it is currently constituted, but we need some way to address the inequality. For instance, colleges want to perpetuate family traditions of attendance, but rewarding children of alumni also penalizes children whose parents (or at least grandparents) were legally prevented from attending that school, and certainly were economically disadvantaged prior to our modern glut of public funding. How is that to be addressed? Likewise, we need a way to boost those predominantly minority students locked into eternally failing inner city schools, preferably without benefiting the well-to-do minority families' private school children. AA is charity, and charity should be based on need rather than on skin color.

I'd like to see AA shift from blanket methods lowering the bar based on skin color/ethnicity to methods of improving the qualifications of disadvantaged children, so that society gets better students rather than just wore but more diverse students. But one way or another the disparity needs to be effectively addressed.

 

[werepossum]

Affirmative action as a policy is a nice theory, but the problem has always been one of culture. If someone grows up in a culture where education is actively promoted, they'll be inclined to pursue advanced education. If they grow up in a culture where education is actively looked down on, they're probably not even going to graduate high school. The importance that a culture places on education is directly proportional to the amount of education someone from that culture is going to pursue. In many places in America, cultures tend to isolate from one another based along racial lines, so we tend to see culture as a function of race, but that's not always the case; a white boy raised in the projects has a lot more in common with his predominantly black social group than he does with some white kid from Scottsdale. But you can't build an affirmative action plan around culture since that's a lot harder to define than a skin color. And that's why affirmative action as a policy, as well-intentioned as it may be, will never work.

Instead of focusing on throwing money at traditionally disenfranchised groups (primarily black people), they need to take steps to make education seem a viable path for someone who has grown up in a culture where education is frowned upon. How do you do that? I have no idea. But until you change the stigma of education within those cultures, you're not going to see people raised in them pursuing degrees at an increased rate.

Very well said.

 

[werepossum]

I'm both hispanic (half-spaniard from mother) and black (half from father) and I HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE affirmative action laws. I have never used race to gain any kind of advantage. I have the same mindset as Cosby and Freeman.

Also very well said and congratulations. Few of us have the moral constitution to ignore a potential advantage, but doing so builds a better country.

 

[ss284]

I can give you a book that discusses it; The Shape of the River. I would like to see where you're hearing black students don't do as well at higher tier colleges. That just seems counterintuitive. However blacks aren't doing as well in undergraduate programs at lower tier colleges. You can explain it by the simple fact that top tier black students are going to apply to the top tier colleges. Since you only need to be good enough, they complete their studies just fine and get the perks of top tier schools (connections, resume prestige, etc). The lower tier colleges don't get the best black students so you're going to get more students not doing as well plus less perks. If you improve the students by having them prepared for college, then you increase their chances of being successful during and after college.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w14276
(Reading the conclusion should be enough to get the gist of the paper.)

The studies show that students with lower credentials will perform worse on average, which is not surprising. Black students with credentials matching the standard requirements perform just as well as students of other races. The under-performance is usually reflected in the students with lower credentials that were admitted due to AA.


I believe some part of AA is counter-intuitive.