SCOTUS agrees to hear challenge to obummercare

[Fern]

I'm pretty liberal and the mandate strikes a really bad chord with me.
-snip-

I'm surprised more liberals don't feel the same way.

The individual mandate strikes me as too strong a tool to allow the govt. I suppose some, shortsightedly IMO, support allowing a mandate because in this particular case it is a mandate they like. But govts change and they might not like the next mandate, but it will be too late at that point.

This seems to be a pretty big 'fork in the road' and one I'd prefer we not go down given the unpredictability of govt and it's penchant for 'unintended consequences' and such

Fern

 

[PokerGuy]

I'm surprised more liberals don't feel the same way.

Everyone should realize that once you allow the concept of this mandate, there's literally nothing that the government can't simply mandate that you do or buy, everything is fair game. The shortsighted left simply doesn't understand that it won't stop with one mandate they like.

 

[theeedude]

I accept the possibility that a single payer system may ultimately be what we adopt, but I don't buy something then figure out if what I have is what I need or want. America is not any European nation. We have our system of law, economics and expectations which are somewhat in common while other aspects are unique. It cannot be a clone of another nation for those reasons alone.

Also remember whatever DC decides to do will have political considerations comefirst. Even the Gulf oil spill had a panel to review it created for that specific purpose. That's what I'd want. Some group which is at least partially insulated from the fighting the Democrats and Republicans will inevitably come to. One might have the most sincere motives in all the world but if that meets the wood chipper of DC politics what comes out isn't going to pretty. At least if we have a decent model which people outside the beltway can see has potential then we have something with which to judge the results. Right now there is no metric and the same system which gave us the budget process would cobble something, but would it really be the best?

There's a lot going on in the relatively near future and we can't get our crap together regarding relatively simple things. No nation is prepared for what's coming and I hope that's not because they gave up before they started, considering it an impossible task and therefore best ignored.

Best idea is to do what we did with our space program. Copy a system that works first, then innovate and adopt from there.

 

[Moonbeam]

Everyone should realize that once you allow the concept of this mandate, there's literally nothing that the government can't simply mandate that you do or buy, everything is fair game. The shortsighted left simply doesn't understand that it won't stop with one mandate they like.

You are a nut case. Everyone should realize that any time you try to think you will come up with an infinite series of utterly stupid ideas.

 

[Ausm]

I'm pretty liberal and the mandate strikes a really bad chord with me.

it's one hell of a sweeping authority to give Congress... how long until a Republican-controlled Congress passes a mandate requiring all Americans to watch Fox News or face fines?

the entire healthcare "reform" was a clusterfuck designed to score a "win" at the expense of any significant systemic reform, and just forces all of us to buy into the broken system.

I think the logic behind it is that if everyone is in the system the younger aka healthier people will help offset the costs of healthcare for more elderly Americans.

I believe the only thing in the Healthcare bill that would have REALLY dove down costs would been the Public option and this mandate is nothing but a bonus for the profit margins of Big Insurance.

 

[xBiffx]

At this point its a win win for the right. If it is found constitutional (not likely) then plenty of people will be pissed and will vote against Obama. Then, when the republicans have more power, they force everyone to buy guns, watch Fox New, get vaccines, and go to church. Republicans end up making up for having to buy health insurance. Win

If it is found unconstitutional (likely), then people doubt Obama even more and vote against him. Then, when the republicans have more power, they can craft a more sane and constitutional way to reform healthcare. Chances are people will get rich when this happens, which will make leftist's heads spin. Win.

Either way. 5-4

 

[nageov3t]

I think the logic behind it is that if everyone is in the system the younger aka healthier people will help offset the costs of healthcare for more elderly Americans.

I believe the only thing in the Healthcare bill that would have REALLY dove down costs would been the Public option and this mandate is nothing but a bonus for the profit margins of Big Insurance.

I totally understand the point, but I feel like if you give Congress the authority to do this in this case, it will open the barn door.

the federal government has never shown a history of restraint in its exercise of power.

 

[Rainsford]

I'm surprised more liberals don't feel the same way.

The individual mandate strikes me as too strong a tool to allow the govt. I suppose some, shortsightedly IMO, support allowing a mandate because in this particular case it is a mandate they like. But govts change and they might not like the next mandate, but it will be too late at that point.

This seems to be a pretty big 'fork in the road' and one I'd prefer we not go down given the unpredictability of govt and it's penchant for 'unintended consequences' and such

Fern

I'm actually not that wild about the mandate either, I'm not sure the problem it's trying to solve is worth the issues it raises. Attaching that was a bad idea, IMO.

Which is actually why I'm glad SCOTUS is looking at it. As much as conservatives consider this case a blow for "Obamacare", the ONLY focus is on the individual mandate. If SCOTUS declares that unconstitutional, then that leaves plenty of room for universal healthcare without the mandate, which wasn't legally challenged at all. Raising hell over the individual mandate makes it more likely universal health care can get passed without it, legally and politically. And as a liberal, that's the part I'm really interested in.

 

[Double Trouble]

I'm actually not that wild about the mandate either, I'm not sure the problem it's trying to solve is worth the issues it raises. Attaching that was a bad idea, IMO.

Which is actually why I'm glad SCOTUS is looking at it. As much as conservatives consider this case a blow for "Obamacare", the ONLY focus is on the individual mandate. If SCOTUS declares that unconstitutional, then that leaves plenty of room for universal healthcare without the mandate, which wasn't legally challenged at all. Raising hell over the individual mandate makes it more likely universal health care can get passed without it, legally and politically. And as a liberal, that's the part I'm really interested in.

If my understanding of the process is correct (from what I've read), the legislation was crafted such that if one piece was found to be unconstitutional the whole thing would be tossed. I don't know if that's correct or not. Either way, without the individual mandate, there would be no way to pay for the whole thing, and the insurance companies that backed it (figuring they'd stand to make a boatload of money from all those new clients) would bail very quickly, it would be a losing proposition for them otherwise.

A healthcare overhaul is badly needed, but I don't like the prospect of this mandate one bit, it opens the door for all sorts of government mandates in the future. They should have scrapped this entire heaping pile of garbage of a bill and started over.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm actually not that wild about the mandate either, I'm not sure the problem it's trying to solve is worth the issues it raises. Attaching that was a bad idea, IMO.

Which is actually why I'm glad SCOTUS is looking at it. As much as conservatives consider this case a blow for "Obamacare", the ONLY focus is on the individual mandate. If SCOTUS declares that unconstitutional, then that leaves plenty of room for universal healthcare without the mandate, which wasn't legally challenged at all. Raising hell over the individual mandate makes it more likely universal health care can get passed without it, legally and politically. And as a liberal, that's the part I'm really interested in.

How would you overcome the free rider problem without an individual mandate?

 

[fskimospy]

If my understanding of the process is correct (from what I've read), the legislation was crafted such that if one piece was found to be unconstitutional the whole thing would be tossed. I don't know if that's correct or not. Either way, without the individual mandate, there would be no way to pay for the whole thing, and the insurance companies that backed it (figuring they'd stand to make a boatload of money from all those new clients) would bail very quickly, it would be a losing proposition for them otherwise.

A healthcare overhaul is badly needed, but I don't like the prospect of this mandate one bit, it opens the door for all sorts of government mandates in the future. They should have scrapped this entire heaping pile of garbage of a bill and started over.

That's not correct. Some legislation has a specific severability clause that states if one part is found unconstitutional then it has no effect on the rest of the bill. The ACA does not have one of those, but that just means it has slightly less protection in that manner, not that it is mandated for the entire bill to be thrown out if one part is found unconstitutional.

In fact, some of the courts that have ruled against the ACA have specifically severed only the individual mandate already.

 

[fskimospy]

Oh, and on an interesting note: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co.../cnn_politicalticker+(Blog:+Political+Ticker)

According to this new poll, a majority of the US now supports the individual mandate.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Funny, that's not what the vote in Ohio showed (66% to 34%).

Issue 3: PASSED: Vote to exempt Ohio from Obamacare insurance mandate – measure passes – Ohio citizens have voted to be exempt from Obama’s health care reform individual mandate.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Oh, and on an interesting note: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co.../cnn_politicalticker+(Blog:+Political+Ticker)

According to this new poll, a majority of the US now supports the individual mandate.

52% with a 3 point error does not seem to be a strong majority.

Also, the timing of the poll coincides with the new health care "election" by seniors; they are presently more aware of the health care issue.

Take the same poll in April and I expect a lower number will show approval; part due to the time distance from the health care election process for seniors and also then people are aware of taxes with the mandate will be "forcing" onto the tax payer.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Funny, that's not what the vote in Ohio showed (66% to 34%).

Issue 3: PASSED: Vote to exempt Ohio from Obamacare insurance mandate – measure passes – Ohio citizens have voted to be exempt from Obama’s health care reform individual mandate.

Ohio is not considered to be representative of the overall country unless it is on a democratic concept

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Ohio is not considered to be representative of the overall country unless it is on a democratic concept

Yet these are the same voters that voted down the law to restrict collective bargaining for public unions.

 

[sportage]

First of all, all people need healthcare at some point. This isn't like watching fox news. People can get by without watching fox news. But not without seeing a doctor. Most likely in an emergency situation, when you least expected it.

Take taxes. We pay taxes. We have no option. They are taken right out of the paycheck before you ever see that paycheck. Can you imagine if people could "opt-out" of paying taxes?

"NAW, I WON'T PAY TAXES... I WILL NEVER DRIVE ON A ROAD, OR NEED A POLICEMAN, OR FIREMAN, OR MILITARY PROTECTION FROM CHINA AND IRAN. IT SHOULD BE UP TO ME IF I WANT GOVERNMENT MILITARY PROTECTION AT MY HOUSE. OR IF I WANT THE POLICE TO SHOW UP WHEN A CRAZED GUNMAN IS HOLDING HOSTAGES AT MY WORK PLACE. AND I JUST WILL NEVER DRIVE ON ANY CITY OR FEDERAL PAVED ROAD. PERIOD!"

Same-o with healthcare.
Healthcare is not an option. Not for the so called 99%. Republicans may cheer at the idea of people just left to die. Left bleeding in the street after a car wreck. They can cheer on the idea, but society just doesn't work that way. Never has...! What happens after a bad car wreck? First thing people do is to call 911.

Required financial contribution to ones healthcare is not some new idea. It is the way things should have been all along. What is happening is it just has taken this long to realize that fact. Like a group thing, where everyone is protected by the police, the fire department, military. You cannot say, well, the house on 1001 Main Street should be covered by city services, but the house across the street at 1003 main street can "opt-out".

This is not some crazy Obamacare idea.
People are not being forced to take part in some optional service, that they do not already take part in, one way or another, in the first place.

And our lesson for tomorrow kiddies... how to walk and chew gun at the same time!
And if you walk in front of an oncoming car and get hit while attempting that trick, maybe YOU can pay your ER bill instead of all the rest of us paying your ER bill.

Maybe I will agree with the idea of "opting-out" of ones healthcare obligation, the first time I see someone laying in the street, blood and guts everywhere, the ambulance rolls up and hears the guy saying "Oh I'm Ok... Just let me lay here for awhile".
And they do just that, and leave.
.
.
.

 

[Ausm]

Yet these are the same voters that voted down the law to restrict collective bargaining for public unions.

Which I applaud them for!

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Which I applaud them for!

Do you also applaud them for voting against the Obamacare Insurance Mandate as well?

 

[umbrella39]

everyone should realize that once you allow the concept of this mandate, there's literally nothing that the government can't simply mandate that you do or buy, everything is fair game. The shortsighted left simply doesn't understand that it won't stop with one mandate they like.

fud ... Ssdd

 

[PokerGuy]

fud ... Ssdd

It's the truth. Just because you don't see it happening now doesn't mean the groundwork isn't set by doing this.

 

[theeedude]

I'm surprised more liberals don't feel the same way.

The individual mandate strikes me as too strong a tool to allow the govt. I suppose some, shortsightedly IMO, support allowing a mandate because in this particular case it is a mandate they like. But govts change and they might not like the next mandate, but it will be too late at that point.

This seems to be a pretty big 'fork in the road' and one I'd prefer we not go down given the unpredictability of govt and it's penchant for 'unintended consequences' and such

Fern

Liberals do not like the individual mandate, and feel that the mandate to provide health coverage should be on the government, not the individual. I don't think you are going to see too many liberals crying if individual mandate is ruled unconstitutional, it eliminates a rival to the single payer coverage that liberals actually want. But we do want it eliminated once and for all, and having a conservative supreme court do it would be a great way to accomplish it.

 

[Ausm]

Do you also applaud them for voting against the Obamacare Insurance Mandate as well?

I never was a fan of the Insurance mandate but big insurance was really pushing Congress to get it in the Bill....geee I wonder why?

 

[First]

It's the truth. Just because you don't see it happening now doesn't mean the groundwork isn't set by doing this.

lmao. If Americans want this mandate (at worst they're split 50/50, at best a majority favors it), then it's not liberal anymore my tarded little troll.

 

[PokerGuy]

lmao. If Americans want this mandate (at worst they're split 50/50, at best a majority favors it)

Hey dimwit, I wasn't talking about it being liberal or not, I'm talking about setting a precedent for future such mandates that you might not like as much as this one. Liberal or conservative is irrelevant. But hey, keep on trolling.