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SCOTUS agrees to hear challenge to obummercare

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Moonbeam said:
Almost nothing constructive can be accomplished as long as Republicans can obstruct government action. We have drifted in two directions for decades, to the right and down. If Americans want to continue that trend we are fucked, in my opinion.
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If that is true; then the drift is due to a current pushing such. The current would be coming from the dissatisfaction of the way the Dems have tried to redirect the river flow.
 
woolfe9999 said:
There weren't even close to enough votes for single payer. The majority of the American people will never support any comprehensive healthcare reform because most of us are insured and we preceive it as someone else's problem. We're going to have to get to a crisis point where huge swaths of the middle class lose their health insurance because their employer dropped it before public attitudes will change.
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You are saying that the majority of Americans are worthless scum.
 
EagleKeeper said:
If that is true; then the drift is due to a current pushing such. The current would be coming from the dissatisfaction of the way the Dems have tried to redirect the river flow.
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Ask your doctor if Wellbutrin is right for you. Side effects include fucking yourself in the ass and death.
 
Each side pretends that it can not be done and yet they continually prove it. :hmm:
 
thraashman said:
Unless Obama intends to replace a retiring liberal judge with a conservative one, we won't see it as any more activist. Based on the definition of activism as legislating from the bench, the conservative justices rank as more activist than all the more liberal ones. That's just a simple fact.
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OMG you just sent me in a tailspin...until I read who was posting this. 😉
 
Ausm said:
it's funny how a mandate for Healthcare was originally a Republican idea...
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I'm pretty liberal and the mandate strikes a really bad chord with me.

it's one hell of a sweeping authority to give Congress... how long until a Republican-controlled Congress passes a mandate requiring all Americans to watch Fox News or face fines?

the entire healthcare "reform" was a clusterfuck designed to score a "win" at the expense of any significant systemic reform, and just forces all of us to buy into the broken system.
 
eskimospy said:
Do you think it would have been preferable to do nothing instead? (and I genuinely do think that was the available choice)
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Uh, yes, yes, 100 x yes. Doing something isn't always better than doing nothing. Nothing was done to actually fix anything, something was passed to score a political point of having done something.
 
PokerGuy said:
Uh, yes, yes, 100 x yes. Doing something isn't always better than doing nothing. Nothing was done to actually fix anything, something was passed to score a political point of having done something.
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I wasn't asking you, as your answer would be predictably stupid. Passing the ACA was clearly superior to doing nothing, and it has gotten the ball rolling for even more sweeping reforms in the future.

Just in case you were wondering, we're just getting warmed up on the health care thing. If you didn't like this, you're probably really going to hate what happens over the next 10-15 years.
 
eskimospy said:
I wasn't asking you, as your answer would be predictably stupid. Passing the ACA was clearly superior to doing nothing
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Clearly? Yeah, the whole system will cost more with worse results. Sounds like a real step forward.

, and it has gotten the ball rolling for even more sweeping reforms in the future.

Just in case you were wondering, we're just getting warmed up on the health care thing. If you didn't like this, you're probably really going to hate what happens over the next 10-15 years.
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Well duh, I don't disagree at all that this was just the first step down the cliff, the only question is how quickly we go backwards 🙁
 
Don Vito Corleone said:
I think for it to achieve its goals, a single-payer plan would have been far more effective, but the GOP and the insurance lobby put the kibosh on that. I also agree with you that the inability to negotiate lower drug prices is a major structural weakness of the ACA.
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You realize that in NY Medicaid (the closest thing to single payer there is) the state farmed out 3/4 of it's management to private companies because it saved money and performed better? BTW, medicaid does negotiate drug prices in the form of a kickback scheme, at least in NY.
 
Hayabusa Rider said:
You realize that in NY Medicaid (the closest thing to single payer there is) the state farmed out 3/4 of it's management to private companies because it saved money and performed better? BTW, medicaid does negotiate drug prices in the form of a kickback scheme, at least in NY.
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And did you know that the most government-y run system in the whole country, the VA, achieves results that the private sector can only dream of in terms of health outcomes and cost efficiencies? That Medicare, the effectively single payer solution for the elderly similarly outperforms the private insurance sector?

Of course you do. I've told you this countless times.
 
PokerGuy said:
Clearly? Yeah, the whole system will cost more with worse results. Sounds like a real step forward.
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Only in PokerGuy world does a law that hasn't even been implemented yet created worse results. (and that's not why it was clearly a step forward) This is why I tell you that your answers are predictably stupid.

Well duh, I don't disagree at all that this was just the first step down the cliff, the only question is how quickly we go backwards 🙁
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Yeah man, damn those evil democrats for moving to implement a proven and superior form of health care distribution!
 
eskimospy said:
And did you know that the most government-y run system in the whole country, the VA, achieves results that the private sector can only dream of in terms of health outcomes and cost efficiencies? That Medicare, the effectively single payer solution for the elderly similarly outperforms the private insurance sector?

Of course you do. I've told you this countless times.
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You have one goal and that is that government should control healthcare. Whether it's the best solution or not that's what you want and you've told us time and again. You've also told us you aren't interested in knowing the best way to implement true reform.

At the beginning of all this I called for a complete inspection of the state of healthcare by people who have some idea of what that is. Instead we got what was asked for if not wanted which is the ACA.

I don't know what would work the best, but then neither do you. I'd like to know you don't.

The fact remains that a the largest implementation of medicaid in US (by far) could not withstand the weight of it's own bureaucracy and other solutions were sought. Perhaps the best way is some hybrid of government and private but we'll never know because people have their minds made up in advance.
 
Hayabusa Rider said:
You have one goal and that is that government should control healthcare. Whether it's the best solution or not that's what you want and you've told us time and again. You've also told us you aren't interested in knowing the best way to implement true reform.

At the beginning of all this I called for a complete inspection of the state of healthcare by people who have some idea of what that is. Instead we got what was asked for if not wanted which is the ACA.

I don't know what would work the best, but then neither do you. I'd like to know you don't.

The fact remains that a the largest implementation of medicaid in US (by far) could not withstand the weight of it's own bureaucracy and other solutions were sought. Perhaps the best way is some hybrid of government and private but we'll never know because people have their minds made up in advance.
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My goal is that we should have the best and most efficient health care system possible, and in this case the evidence couldn't be more clear. The only way to fight this evidence is to claim that I have some sort of bizarre crusade to increase government control as opposed to actually admitting the undeniable.
 
eskimospy said:
My goal is that we should have the best and most efficient health care system possible, and in this case the evidence couldn't be more clear. The only way to fight this evidence is to claim that I have some sort of bizarre crusade to increase government control as opposed to actually admitting the undeniable.
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You have no idea what the best possible health care system is. The best idea so far is to copy. Innovate? Heaven forbid.
 
Hayabusa Rider said:
You have no idea what the best possible health care system is. The best idea so far is to copy. Innovate? Heaven forbid.
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Any policy maker worth his paycheck always looks to copy good ideas from other areas, and nowhere does copying good ideas rule out innovating.

What did our good friend Steve say? Good artists copy, great artists steal.
 
eskimospy said:
Any policy maker worth his paycheck always looks to copy good ideas from other areas, and nowhere does copying good ideas rule out innovating.

What did our good friend Steve say? Good artists copy, great artists steal.
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I accept the possibility that a single payer system may ultimately be what we adopt, but I don't buy something then figure out if what I have is what I need or want. America is not any European nation. We have our system of law, economics and expectations which are somewhat in common while other aspects are unique. It cannot be a clone of another nation for those reasons alone.

Also remember whatever DC decides to do will have political considerations comefirst. Even the Gulf oil spill had a panel to review it created for that specific purpose. That's what I'd want. Some group which is at least partially insulated from the fighting the Democrats and Republicans will inevitably come to. One might have the most sincere motives in all the world but if that meets the wood chipper of DC politics what comes out isn't going to pretty. At least if we have a decent model which people outside the beltway can see has potential then we have something with which to judge the results. Right now there is no metric and the same system which gave us the budget process would cobble something, but would it really be the best?

There's a lot going on in the relatively near future and we can't get our crap together regarding relatively simple things. No nation is prepared for what's coming and I hope that's not because they gave up before they started, considering it an impossible task and therefore best ignored.
 
eskimospy said:
Don Vito Corleone said:
I think for it to achieve its goals, a single-payer plan would have been far more effective, but the GOP and the insurance lobby put the kibosh on that. I also agree with you that the inability to negotiate lower drug prices is a major structural weakness of the ACA.
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I agree that single payer is the way to go (and I think it's where we will eventually get to), but I don't believe there were ever 60 votes for single payer. I don't even think there were 50, and it certainly was never part of the plan for the bill. If you want to say that lobbying twisted the ACA, that lobbying happened decades ago.
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I've posted it here before. IIRC, the max votes the Dems could muster in the Senate were just 24.

Fern
 
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