School vouchers . . . what do you think?

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MrPALCO

Banned
Nov 14, 1999
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The Rich will always be able to afford private school in order to avoid the cesspool created by the NEA, in collusion with the Federal government.

Being against school vouchers because of a misguided notion that no vouchers, will somehow penalize rich, is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot.

School vouchers would force schools to compete on the open market with an excellent product, or die.

I am for school vouchers.

:)
 

IamDavid

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2000
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I hate the idea of vouchers... But there seems to be no other alternative... The last forty years we have dumped more and more money onto the problems of failing schools and look where its taken us... In L.A. it cost over $12,000.00 per kid, per year for a education that doesn't even guarantee the kid the ability to read or write... Money is NOT the answer..
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
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I think some form of vouchers is the only way we can get our education system back to teaching our kids. I think if the teachers unions are against them then there is some merit in them.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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There are other factors that jack up the prices as well - public schools have to provide education and support to special education students. Public schools also have to pick up the tab on students who's families cannot afford to feed their kids.

Private schools on the other hand pretty much weed out those two right from the start.
 

Raspewtin

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 1999
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I think vouchers will cause more problems than they solve. If anyone looks at how underpaid principals and teachers are, and how high demand there is for them, its pretty clear most educators teach our children b/c they love teaching our children, not b/c it's financially rewarding.

After a certain amount of funds is removed from the system, making any hope for appropriate pay impossible, there will doubtlessly be a mass exodus of personnel, and out public school system will fall hard, or certain areas will be forced to take out bonds that with interest, will cost taxpayers more than the small amount of voucher they get. BTW I know private school teachers are paid less on average than public school teachers.

Also, vouchers will rarely pay for a full alternate private education, and thus most likely it will be used mostly by rich individuals as a rebate. I doubt it will increase private school enrollment significantly.

It's a very short sighted idea at this point, and will actually end up costing us more, not saving us more. Thus even for people purely focused on their financial situation, it makes no sense. That's not even mentioning how it will effect other students who cannot afford private school even with a voucher and are left in a underfunded school. IMO, the problem is that funding for schools come from local property taxes usually, and thus until the method of funding changes (i.e. sales tax or statewide income taxes) there will always be a problem with public education.


Dan, your ideas are interesting, although I disagree with them. How do you think the private sector would address the needs of poor areas (especially poor rural areas) and still maintain a commitment to profitibility? My thought is that the only type of private education you'd find in those areas are those pushing a religious agenda, but if the private sector could do the job and not leave anyone out, I'd be for that.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Public school education has been heading in the dumper. Perhaps that's the reason it's the #1 issue, ya think? Private schools are more efficent with funds. If you read the cato report, you'll see that public schools use 10 times the administration of the private schools. THAT DOES MEAN DIDLY SQUAT IN MY BOOK!
  • Massive school bureaucracies divert scarce resources from real educational activities, deprive principals and teachers of any opportunity for authority and independence, and create an impenetrable bulwark against citizen efforts to change the school system. The school systems have become susceptible to influence only from special-interest groups, notably the teachers' unions and other elements of the education establishment. Like factories of the former Soviet Union, America's government schools are technologically backward, overstaffed, inflexible, unresponsive to consumer demand, and operated for the convenience of top-level bureaucrats.
"What does a private school offer over a public school?" Uh, none of the above deficiencies for starters. Higher test scores. "...after three or four years reading scores of low-income minority students were on the average 3 to 6 percentage points higher and math scores were 5 to 11 points higher than those of comparable public school students..." and private schools ARE competition, which helps all kids when public schools are forced to compete.
 

MrPALCO

Banned
Nov 14, 1999
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The Public School System is terminal.

Perform major surgery to remove it, and throw it away.

Keep government out of the delivery of education, requiring certain educational ability of US citizens is, ok.

:)
 

CliffC

Member
Oct 24, 2000
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Ornery,
vouchers will not make this happen

Here's real numbers. Our local public school costs us $5,000 per student. That's fact. The local Catholic school does it for $4,000 per student. If we take the $4,000 of the $5,000 and send the kid to the Catholic school, you've got one less kid costing us $5,000 in the public school. We're up by $1,000 at that point.

The most you could hope for is that the "public" school would lose the $1500 that would be given to the "private" school student that left it.
The "private school would never be given the whole $4000 because that's not how the voucher system would work.
And this: The average tuition for all private schools, elementary and secondary, is $3,116, or less than half of the cost per pupil in the average public school, $6,857.
Only proves the common sense that when you have to provide for 70/80% of the school kids then you have to have much more resources to do so. I could give you some elementary examples but I won't.

But I did read the Cato "paper" and the only thing that it really says is that there arfe too many administrators in the public schools, not that the public schools aren't doing the job.
But I was suprised that a "think tank" couldn't come up with better verbage than this, the number of teachers and principals grew by a comparatively puny 57 percent and 79 percent, respectively, to get their point across.
And although they came up with some good points this last sentence
The simplest way to create a system of educational choice is a voucher plan or a tax credit system.
made me want to think that the writer was, oh say, about $1500 short of getting their kid in a private school.

Why? Don't my kids deserve choice? Yes Ornery your kids can go to any "private" school that you can afford to send them to if you don't want them getting a "public" education! And if you have been denied the choice of sending them to that "private" school then I believe that a thorough investigation is warranted.

And Ornery since you claim this:

America's government schools are technologically backward

then I say when you get rid of the administrators and have all the money you're not having to pay them then spend that money to make the schools as technologically as advanced as any "private" school!

ie. You still are putting the same amount of $ into the schools you just have far superior schools than you had before, which in turn would give you "voucher vulturettes"(can I trademark that) exactly what you are decrying the "private" schools offer over the "public" ones! As I said before everyone has a lot of ideas but noone has even come close to coming up with a plan/solution.








 

IamDavid

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2000
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"As I said before everyone has a lot of ideas but noone has even come close to coming up with a plan/solution."

How could we ever find out if any of the plans would work.. Everytime someone starts talkin about change the teacher Unions start screaming about there rights.. And who's gonna stand up to the teachers? Nobody.. If anyone does they are said to not support education and deemed anti-child... There will be no meaningful change in American Education until teacher Unions shut up.... Its there fault we're in this mess..
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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No problem. Use vouchers from Federal, State AND Local taxes to put the kids through whichever school their parents want. Why not? It's no secret that public schools generally are fvcked up. Time for a change and I'm not leaving it for the NEA to decide what those changes should be.

My kids will be done with school by the time we can get any real choice. But I'll still be voting that ALL my educational tax dollars stay out of the hands of Public Education. They had their chance. They blew it... :|
 

CliffC

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Oct 24, 2000
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IamDavid you say:

How could we ever find out if any of the plans would work

What plans are you referring to and where can I get a copy of them. So far the only plan I've heard about is Bushs "I'll give anyone $1500 that takes their kid out of public school and puts them into private school".

I would also expect any group to try and protect their livelyhood(sp?) if a bunch of people were coming up with unsensible/whacko/iffy/questionable plans to take it away from them.

But as Ornery and the Cato Institute have stated it's the Number of administrators that are the real problem.
But the last time I checked my school district was run by the people elected by our local constituents and not people put in place by the State/Federal Govment. So I'm inclined to believe that most school system problems are caused by these constituents choices of system administrators.

Ornery, this is probably the most intelligent thing you've come up with yet:

Use vouchers from Federal, State AND Local taxes to put the kids through whichever school their parents want

Now all you have to do is join forces with the right Senators and Congressmen/women and work out a viable plan and then let the American people scope it over to make sure it's the best plan for American kids and not just some other fvckupthat bureaucrats want to push onto us.

But when you exhibit this mentality then you pretty much shoot any intelligent post down:

It's no secret that public schools generally are fvcked up

That's no different than saying:

It's no secret that Southern whites are generally bigots.

It's just a totally ridiculous statement!

I'd be delighted to know who blew thisPrivate schools are the schiznit and Public schools suck smoke up your @ss. Even your own cut/paste says it's the Admins. and not the schools.
 

Imported

Lifer
Sep 2, 2000
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School vouchers are a bad idea. Right now, I go to a public high school, the best one in the district. What more can a private school provide that a public school can't nowadays? Sure, they may have a bit more money to spend on computers, etc. but most of it is to make their school look better. I went to a private school for 3 years, and every 6 months, they'd have it repainted and everything, every year have it remodeled. What good is that for students? Then there's the whole issue of seperation between church and state. Most private schools have some form of religion that it's based around, and there is suppose to be that seperation. In the end, school vouchers take away from needed money by public schools and give it to the greedy private schools. :\
 

MrPALCO

Banned
Nov 14, 1999
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Government control over education has failed (local school board members with their hands tied, notwithstanding).

While $1500 per year won't cut it, there will be much more than that available if no money gets into government hands.

Let individuals be responsible for educating their children. Allow the free market reward or punish the outcome of their choice of school and effort.

Some Americans have allowed government to become their cradle to grave lord, and the result is not pretty.

:)
 

SpongeBob

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2001
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Vouchers are a terrible idea. I went to private school for 8 years of my life and not once did I feel challenged academically until I went to a public high school. Most of my friends went on to private high schools and they didn't have a lot of choices for classes. They couldn't even take calculus. Granted my public school system is supposedly one of the better ones. I think that a lot of these private schools are mainly in it for the profit and for pushing their "views" down the throats of kids that don't know any better.
 

MrPALCO

Banned
Nov 14, 1999
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<< I went to private school for 8 years of my life and not once did I feel challenged academically >>



Why didn't you go to a good private school?

:)
 

SpongeBob

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2001
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MrPalco, a lot of people in this thread have generalized that all private schools are better than public schools. I'm just speaking from my own personal experience. I'm not against private schools or anything, I just think if parents make a choice to send their kids to private school, they should foot the bill. I wouldn't send my kids to private school, so why should I as a taxpayer be paying for other people's kids to go to private schools?
 

Pennstate

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 1999
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By Ornery's logic, private school students would kick the sh8t out of public school students in academic competitions. In my long experiences in attending these activities during high school, the winners are always from public schools, albeit from rich public schools (catholic schools rarely do well in these competitions). I agree that there are more administrator than necessary. But this is not true of all public schools. In addition, Ornery claims that private schools are runned better, he's assuming that all private schools are the same. Some private schools, especially rich and exclusive ones like Choate, Deerfield, Exeter, are much better than other private schools. But if you want to go to these private schools, you better have 10 $1500 vouchers a year to send one kid to these schools. Most ordinary private schools have LESS AP or Advanced classes (due to the lack of teachers qualified to teach AP and advanced subjects), LESS extracurricular activities (Band, Orchestra, Sports, Science clubs, math clubs, Thespian clubs, and many many more), and LESS involvement in academic competitions. Where do you think the money for these thing come from Ornery? The things I mentioned also apply when one compares a rich Public school vs a poor Public school; and when comparing a rich private school vs poor private school.

So far during these debates where people like Ornery claims that private schools teach their kids better than public ones, I have YET TO SEE an objective comparison between the two such as SAT scores, or other measurable academic performances. A few of these statistics exist for rich private schools (they use them in their brouchers), but these are also schools that have mandatory entrance exams. So it would be like comparing the average SAT scores of Harvard undergrads vs the SAT scores of undergrads in your local community college.

Some public schools may be failures, but the public school system overall has been very successful. Even when you look at other countries that consistently produce high quality students, they all use a public school system. However, their students are required to do more homework and at an earlier age, prohibit the use of calculators in most math classes, have longer semesters, and have mandatory summer self-learning homework. Also, in general, they have less interaction with computers. (so much for the myth that computers will teach our kids in the future.)

One other FLAW of Ornery's logic that inner city schools have the same amount of money to spend (in addition to the difference in living standards) is that it takes A LOT MORE MONEY to hire qualified teachers who are willing work in crime-ridden, crowded inner cities than nice safe suburbs. (Ask yourself Ornery, how much would they have to pay you to teach at an inner city school?) Most inner city school buildings are old and require more frequent repair from normal usage and from vandalism. And don't be fooled by Ornery's selected examples, most inner city schools receive a lot less money to spend per student. Have you heard about the recent case in Texas on a plan to redistribute property taxes from rich districts to inner city and rural schools? Many suburban schools are suing the State to overturn this plan. /EDIT It was not Bush's idea and he's staunch opponent of the plan.



 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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No, no, no, don't mind me. I have no idea why public education has become the top issue of the platform of each party. It's all working so swimmingly well, there's just no explanation for the major concern about it form all quarters. Far be it from me to try to put my finger on the reason...

And I have no idea why public schools would have anything to worry about since private schools have nothing on them. Why ever would any parent choose to send their children anywhere else? Humph <shrug>, beats me!

Silly me, I can't see where vouchers would cost any taxpayer one extra cent. A kid goes to a private school for the same or less dollars than his public school. Gee, what am I missing here? :eek:

Oh well, guess we might as well just leave things the way they are, since everything is so hunky dory. Nevermind...
 

Pennstate

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 1999
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That's not my point. My point is vouchers won't fix the failures of some public schools. More money, less administrators, smaller class room size, more qualified teachers, and a more focused curriculum will. And with the lack of respect and lack of decent compensation these day, we surely are not going to produce enough qualified teachers.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Ornery: the stats you provided clearly show that Public School reform is seriously needed in the US. It seems obvious that politicians are just unwilling to make the tough choices in this matter. So they gravitate to the voucher idea, which passes the buck to the parents, both figuratively and literally. This is not so much a crisis in education as much as it's a crisis in leadership. What's needed is someone to do what Reagan did with the Air Traffic Controllers, step in, put their foot down, and say, &quot;this is how it's going to be!&quot;. It may cost them their next election, but for the good of the PS system it would be worth it in the long run. Vouchers are just a way for leaders to wuss out.
 

Dan

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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CliffC: You're right. The federal government is deeply invested in many things (like education, Social Security, Amtrak, the arts, etc.) that I think it has no business being involved with. I just go a little nuts when I see Democrats and the Republicans continuing to debate degrees of difference rather than underlying premises.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Since it's a given that &quot;America's Education system really really really sucks&quot;, then it is time for change. We've thrown money at it for years, although I think most of that just went into teacher's pockets. Yeah, teachers that are nearly impossible to &quot;let go&quot;, but that's another topic.

Looks like GWB wants to throw more money at it, but with strings. And teachers aren't liking it! Matter of fact, most better off Dems don't like the &quot;big stick&quot; that vouchers provide in Bush's Education Plan. From what I've read, schools that accept aid money from the Federal government are subject to show improvements or face the big stick.

I'm all for aid with strings, and maybe vouchers are too harsh, but it's been years with no improvement and I haven't heard a better idea...
 

Pennstate

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 1999
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Ornery, shorter financial aid will not solve the long term underlying problem, which is property-based finance of public education is inherantly unfair and is not a viable way to fund schools. Many cities such as Chicago charge a higher milage in property taxes than the suburbs. However, the lack of property value results in lower total tax revenue. THe inner city and rural schools get about ~ 80% of their operating budget comes from the state. For suburbs, it's like 20-30%. I would respect your opinion much more if you'd read Jonathan Kozol's &quot;Savage Inequalities&quot;. actually lets have a bet or some sorts. I'll send you this book, and I'll read a book that you think would change my views on this issue. After we've both read these books, we'll debate again. PM me you you want to take up this offer
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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We're already going down that road in Ohio for a different reason. The rural towns in southern Ohio don't bring enough money in property tax to pay as much as the suburbs. Now you tell me the cities don't bring in as much as the suburbs because the value is too low.

Well, our method of paying for schools has been declared unconstitutional, so we're in the process of &quot;fixing&quot; it. More like feet dragging, so we don't have to send our property tax money down south. And no, I don't think that's a fair solution either.

As it is now, the average spent statewide for each student on average is probably about $4,500+ Federal, State and Local combined. $4,500 x 20 students is $90,000 per class! The teacher sucks up half that for 180 days effort. Where the hell is the rest of it going?

I refuse to pay another dime into the current system. Bush has a plan that he wants to implement. Sounds like a good compromise to me so far. It's not going to address our &quot;School Funding&quot; situation here either. Not fair huh? Perhaps we should have a higher state sales tax? Gas tax? Payroll tax? I'm tapped! And I think we've established that a ridiculous amount of money is being thrown at it already.

We purchased less of a house than we would like for the sake of living in a decent school district. I could probably buy more house in the rural area, with more property and pay for private school with the difference in what the property tax is here (spread over 30 years). Hmmm, guess that goes for the people that actually did make that choice too, doesn't it? Too bad they can't get credit for sending their kid to the private school... for now anyway.