School vouchers . . . what do you think?

[XMan]

Personally, I think it's a GREAT idea. I honestly cannot think of any reason not to do it . . . successful schools will attract more students, and the schools that don't succeed will have to improve or lose their students . . . survival of the fittest.

 

[KameLeon]

School vouchers as in the shot-down-proposed-idea-of-giving-vouchers-to-parents-to-send-kids-to-private-school vouchers? Forgive me If i'm mistaken.

 

[XMan]

No, not necessarily private schools. Just schools with better curriculum, better teachers, whatever.

What's wrong with private schools? I went to public school, but private school kids generally seem to get a better education.

 

[Yo Ma Ma]

I would be against it since it supports government intervention in private industry. There is a limited version of the voucher system in place now in MI, but to use it the child must meet some rather extraordinary requirements (in the negative sense).

 

[KameLeon]

Oh, Well I was talking about the idea that got shot down in CA. They proposed we, the tax payers, give money vouchers to parents who want to send their kids to private schools. It doesn't make any sense to me. Why should we pay for it? If they want to send their children to private schools..They should afford it themselves.

 

[vi edit]

It's all fine and dandy until the schools that everyone migrates to start to overcrowd. They once again, you are faced with the situation of overcrowed classrooms, understaffed schools, yadda yadda yadda.

 

I would be for it if its designed only for the public school system.
The private school systems do not need my tax money.
If they pay to send their kids to school, then they should not receive state or federal money.
If they need more money, raise tuition.
I pay enough taxes as it is here in NY.

 

[Dan]

I'd like to take Yo_Ma-Ma's point and run with it in a slightly different direction. I personally think the government, especially the Federal government should get out of education altogether. The public school system should be dismantled. Let the private sector, e.g., private schools, take over.

 

[XMan]

Interesting story . . .

CNN

 

[Dan]

SammySon: We all pay too much in taxes. Imagine how much less we'd all be paying in if the government got out of things like Amtrack, public eduction, retirement plans, i.e., Social Security, etc.

 

[Ornery]

Our public schools use from $4,000 to $7,000 per student to teach them. Private schools do it for less and do a better job. The money used for vouchers isn't in addition to your current taxes, it's sent to the private school instead of public. No higher taxes.

The only beef against vouchers is that they're used for Religious private schools, thus raising the issue of separation of church and state. But I say, who cares who does the teaching as long as the cost is the same or less and the kids do as well or better? Hmmmmm?

 

[jmcoreymv]

I would be so sure that private schools do a better job. The reason private school averages may be higher is due to the fact that the parents in general have a higher *care* for their childs education, and sometimes that may sometimes lead to the belief private school is better, and then they put their kid in private school. Just the fact that the parents care about their kids education is what helps the kid do better in school.

 

[CliffC]

Well heres my take for what it's worth

Xerox says: successful schools will attract more students
And I ask who decides this. The public school people, the private school people, or the Govment?
He also says: the schools that don't succeed will have to improve or lose their students
And I ask is this with or without our help, ie. Do it on your own or your f*cked!
He says: survival of the fittest
And I have to wonder if he means, survival of the richest.
He then says: not necessarily private schools. Just schools with better curriculum, better teachers, whatever
And I have to ask if we cannot put those same curriculums and better teachers or whatever in the schools we have now?
When he says this though: but private school kids generally seem to get a better education.
I have to point out it is an URBAN LEGEND and can't be substantiated.

KameLeon says: . They proposed we, the tax payers, give money vouchers to parents who want to send their kids to private schools
And I ask you this, If Bush is offering $1500 in vouchers and the private school costs are $5000-$6000 how many low to middle income people are gonna be able to send their2.3 children to a private school? My guess, none!

vi_edit point out: It's all fine and dandy until the schools that everyone migrates to start to overcrowd
And to this I say: You Sir are correct and give that man a cigar! Also how many 10's or 100's of millions of dollars are gonna have to be spent to build these schools to house all these voucher converts? Or wait, maybe we could just give our taxed paid and built schools to the Private school sector in exchange for teaching our kids.

Now Dan I've read alot of your posts and I've got to say that I definately think of you as rather intelligent but atno time were you actually thinking when you typed this: I personally think the government, especially the Federal government should get out of education altogether. The public school system should be dismantled. Let the private sector, e.g., private schools, take over.

Now SammySon is actually thinking when he says: I would be for it if its designed only for the public school system.
The private school systems do not need my tax money.
If they pay to send their kids to school, then they should not receive state or federal money.
If they need more money, raise tuition.

Dan again your looking for the pie in the sky if you think the Govment will ever get out of any of these: Amtrack, public eduction, retirement plans, i.e., Social Security
Although I would almost say Amtrack--maybe.

And of course Ornery comes through with his magic watch me pull these numbers out of thin air routine in his attempt to perpetuate this URBAN LEGEND: Private schools do it for less and do a better job
Oh and this bit of wisdom is a killer: it's sent to the private school instead of public.
So let me get this straight, lets take our tax money and send it to the school that the kids that can afford private school go to and take it away from the school that the kids that can't afford private school go to!

WOW (bumps palm of hand to forehead) what a freakin revelation that was! I would of never come up with give to the kids that have and take from the kids that have-not!

I don't think anyone has even attempted to think this thing through! Not Bush, not us, and not the people running the public or private schools!
Think about this, say that private school that is better than the public school your kid goes to is another 45 minutes added to the ride they have now. Do you make them spend another 1 1/2 hrs on the bus each day or do you find the time and resources to take them there yourself? And how about the added cost of gas to that school for that extra ride, do you siphon off more public school money to pay for it or do you raise the tuition of that school?

You people have this " Oh hell just do it like this " attitude and you haven't thought this through one bit!
It all sounds good until you have to put it in a REAL LIFE situation!

I know by now a lot of you are thinking, well hell you haven't come up with any answers. And my answer to that is, you're right, on that one because I know this is much bigger than me and all of you put together and we would have a better chance of stuffing an elephant into a soda bottle as solving this!

But keep on trying though because that's perseverance and I must say that you all have plenty of that. And to show you all that I meant no disrespect to any of you here are my smileys!😱😀:|🙁:Q🙂😉😛😎:disgust::frown:😕

 

[jacobnero6918]

Public education doesn't work and it doesn't matter how much money they dump into it. I think education is to important to be left in the hands of Uncle Sam or the state governmnet. It is time for a totally new model, which means the old one needs to be torn down.

 

[ViRGE]

I digress, public education works well. I'm in the middle of it right now, and I'm doing great. I have(for the most part) reachers that care about teaching, and as such, put all their energy into teaching myelf and my peers. And, as such, not only am I learning things that for the most part are useless(sorry, I hate English class😉), but [igasp[/i] I'm getting a good education over the important things too.

However, if you make schools private(and as such, make teaching a well paying career), I fear that I may lose that. It has been in my experience that any teacher that joins for the cash will become ineffective in a matter of years(once the flame in their hearts is gone, they have no reason to teach besides the money). Thanks for the ideas, but I'm happy with the school system just the way it is.😉

 

[Ornery]

Here's real numbers. Our local public school costs us $5,000 per student. That's fact. The local Catholic school does it for $4,000 per student. If we take the $4,000 of the $5,000 and send the kid to the Catholic school, you've got one less kid costing us $5,000 in the public school. We're up by $1,000 at that point.

If you do that with 20 students, the Catholic school will have to hire another teacher and the public school will have to lose one. You'll have to work those details out with the NEA, because they seem to have something against getting rid of unneeded teachers.

The only qualm is using public dollars for a religious based school. The anti voucher gang has nothing else in it's corner. And it's poor Democrats that are for vouchers as well as your average Republican. The ones most against vouchers are Union teachers. What a shock!

 

[sandorski]

CliffC-Bravo! You are absolutely correct!

Personally, since many schools are already funded $x/student(at least that's basically how it works in BC, Canada)vouchers seem like a simple solution. However, in order to maintain a high quality of life, it is imperative that children receive a good education. This is the main reason that public education was established in the first place. A sudden adoption of a voucher system is potentially a disaster waiting to happen and a total privatization of education is downright insane. Perhaps, if a controlled limited voucher program were tried, eventually the regulations necessary to succeed with such a program could be established.

When the future is at stake, it is best not to rush into something that could cause irreparable damage.

 

[TravisBickle]

I think these school vouchers for firearm ammunition is a very bad idea. these kiddie psychopaths need treatment, not encouragement
sorry...this is good ol' U S of A schools we were talking about, right?

 

[vi edit]

Please explain to me what it is that makes private schools "better" than public schools.

 

[Ornery]

WHAT WOULD A SCHOOL VOUCHER BUY?
THE REAL COST OF PRIVATE SCHOOLS

by David Boaz and R. Morris Barrett
Cato Briefing Paper #25 March 26, 1996

• The average tuition for all private schools, elementary and secondary, is $3,116, or less than half of the cost per pupil in the average public school, $6,857.
• American schools are failing because they are organized according to a bureaucratic, monopolistic model; their organizing principle is basically the same as that of a socialist economy.
• ...government figures and other research show that the average tuition at independent elementary schools is less than $2,500. (1996)
• After more than a decade of national attention and reform efforts, there should be little doubt that America's schools remain in crisis.
• Education used to be a poor child's ticket out of the slums; now it is part of the system that traps people in the underclass.
• Since World War II real spending per student has increased about 40 percent per decade, or about doubled every 20 years.
• The money does not go primarily to affluent school districts. The Boston schools, for instance, spend $7,300 per enrollee each year and more than $9,000 per student in average daily attendance. The figure is $9,500 per enrollee in Washington, D.C., and $7,350 in New York City. (1996)
• The evidence is overwhelming that America's government schools are overcentralized, bureaucratic behemoths.
• The nonteaching bureaucracy has mushroomed; it grew by 500 percent between 1960 and 1984. Over the same period, the number of teachers and principals grew by a comparatively puny 57 percent and 79 percent, respectively.
• For example, in 1987, while there were 3,300 employees in the central and district offices of the Chicago public school system, a mere 36 administrators oversaw the schools of the Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago, although its student population is 40 percent of that of the public schools and it serves a much larger geographical area.
• In the nation's largest school district, New York City, 6,000 administrators in the government schools and only 25 in the Catholic schools, although the Catholic schools served about one-fourth the number of students the government schools did.
• The Baltimore Archdiocese manages 34,000 students in 101 schools with 7 administrators, while the nearby Harford County public schools need 64 administrators to oversee 36,000 students in 51 schools.
• The simplest way to create a system of educational choice is a voucher plan or a tax credit system.

 

[Impact55]

Only if the vouchers are only used for TRUE inner-city kids.

 

[Ornery]

Why? Don't my kids deserve choice?

 

[Impact55]

Yes, but the true suffering schools lie within the inner-city. The schools are so corrupt by drugs, violence, and sex that it is a very hard place to get a quality education. Vouchers should not be for everyone, only the neediest. Instead of giving everyone vouchers there should be a massive public school reform.

 

[Mister T]

ornery, I am with you on this one man.
The religious issue is not really an issue as I see it.
Parents are given a choice to send their kids to whatever school they want to, religious or not.

I went to private catholic schools since grade 2. If my parents had not sent me to private schools,
I would have never been able to get into MIT.

 

[vi edit]

<< A $45000 income in Cedar Rapids IA is equivalent to a $56413 income in Washington DC/MD/VA

You will need an increase of 25% to maintain your standard of living. >>



---------------------------------------------------------------



<< A $45000 income in Cedar Rapids IA is equivalent to a $95078 income in New York NY

You will need an increase of 111% to maintain your standard of living. >>




--------------------------------------------------------------

Your Dollar and cents figure's mean didly squat. If the standard of living is that high in DC and NY,NY, then the cost of operations for a school are going to be a hell of a lot higher.

Once again I ask, what does a private school offer over a public school?