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Say GM files for bankruptcy...

well the bankruptcy judge could void all their union contracts so they don't have to pay absurd amounts of money for labor and then maybe they will be successful again...
 
Originally posted by: BrownTown
well the bankruptcy judge could void all their union contracts so they don't have to pay absurd amounts of money for labor and then maybe they will be successful again...
Click to expand...

they don't pay their workers "absurd" amounts of money...
 
Originally posted by: BrownTown
well the bankruptcy judge could void all their union contracts so they don't have to pay absurd amounts of money for labor and then maybe they will be successful again...
Click to expand...

What chapter would the bankruptcy fall under? 11?
 
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: BrownTown
well the bankruptcy judge could void all their union contracts so they don't have to pay absurd amounts of money for labor and then maybe they will be successful again...
Click to expand...

they don't pay their workers "absurd" amounts of money...
Click to expand...

😕
 
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: BrownTown
well the bankruptcy judge could void all their union contracts so they don't have to pay absurd amounts of money for labor and then maybe they will be successful again...
Click to expand...

they don't pay their workers "absurd" amounts of money...
Click to expand...

double what toyota pays down the street isn't absurd?
 
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: BrownTown
well the bankruptcy judge could void all their union contracts so they don't have to pay absurd amounts of money for labor and then maybe they will be successful again...
Click to expand...

they don't pay their workers "absurd" amounts of money...
Click to expand...

double what toyota pays down the street isn't absurd?
Click to expand...

you need to check your facts...
 
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: BrownTown
well the bankruptcy judge could void all their union contracts so they don't have to pay absurd amounts of money for labor and then maybe they will be successful again...
Click to expand...

they don't pay their workers "absurd" amounts of money...
Click to expand...

$25/hr at Toyota
$27-28/hr at UAW

These are average wages.

The AVERAGE Toyota wage earner gets $52,000 per year. The AVERAGE UAW wage earner gets $56,160-58,240 per year. This is in regions (Michigan, Mississippi, Louisiana, etc.) where the average wage is $12-13/hr. These jobs are also unskilled labor. If that isn't an 'absurd' amount of money for the region and skill, then neither is $250,000,000 for 9 months as a CEO.
 
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: BrownTown
well the bankruptcy judge could void all their union contracts so they don't have to pay absurd amounts of money for labor and then maybe they will be successful again...
Click to expand...

they don't pay their workers "absurd" amounts of money...
Click to expand...

double what toyota pays down the street isn't absurd?
Click to expand...

you need to check your facts...
Click to expand...

IIRC, they get something like $30/hour not including benefits (though new hires are much lower).

$30/hour is 60k/year for "unskilled" labor.

i'm not putting anyone down.. but that's better than many "skilled" out of college jobs (ie, engineers start, on average, around 50k-ish)
 
oh sorry it was $48 total benefits per hour at toyota and $74 at GM. no idea if that considers GM's job bank. if it doesn't, then the GM number is ever worse in comparison to toyota. the latest contract might have helped that difference a bit but that's like letting someone have just enough air that they choke even more slowly.
 
you guys are wrong in looking at the wages per hour. that is not what is killing GM, its the pensions they are still paying out.
 
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: BrownTown
well the bankruptcy judge could void all their union contracts so they don't have to pay absurd amounts of money for labor and then maybe they will be successful again...
Click to expand...

they don't pay their workers "absurd" amounts of money...
Click to expand...

double what toyota pays down the street isn't absurd?
Click to expand...

you need to check your facts...
Click to expand...

IIRC, they get something like $30/hour not including benefits (though new hires are much lower).

$30/hour is 60k/year for "unskilled" labor.

i'm not putting anyone down.. but that's better than many "skilled" out of college jobs (ie, engineers start, on average, around 50k-ish)
Click to expand...

But if all the other automakers are paying their workers a salary that's in the same range as that, how can you say that GM's salary is too high?

As another poster has said, it's not the salary of the current workers that's killing them, it's paying the salaries of employees that are no longer working there that's killing them.
 
Ummm... the Japanese automakers have had huge gains in their American wages for the sole purpose of trying to prevent their workers from unionizing. So, wages are ridiculously high across the board because UAW has been reaming the big three.

Edit: It's both, 91. They're getting killed b/c they're paying $25/hr for $15/hr work and they're also getting killed b/c they're paying what amounts to $15/hr for no work (retirees).
 
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: BrownTown
well the bankruptcy judge could void all their union contracts so they don't have to pay absurd amounts of money for labor and then maybe they will be successful again...
Click to expand...

they don't pay their workers "absurd" amounts of money...
Click to expand...

YES they do.
 
they would file under Chapter 11, stock trading would freeze, they would be allowed to reject certain leases/contracts, unsecured debt would be traded, they'll re-emerge in a year or two and stock will begin trading again (new stock... old stock vanishes into the void, as well as all stockholders).
 
Originally posted by: ElFenix
oh sorry it was $48 total benefits per hour at toyota and $74 at GM. no idea if that considers GM's job bank. if it doesn't, then the GM number is ever worse in comparison to toyota. the latest contract might have helped that difference a bit but that's like letting someone have just enough air that they choke even more slowly.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think this is the chart you're referring to

Text
 
Originally posted by: maddogchen
you guys are wrong in looking at the wages per hour. that is not what is killing GM, its the pensions they are still paying out.
Click to expand...

If they do go bankrupt, GM would probably get to offload that pension burden to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC), much like United did when they went bankrupt.

That would probably result in a big cut in pension benefits, but it's better than nothing if the company ends up being liquidated!
 
Originally posted by: Jeeebus
they would file under Chapter 11, stock trading would freeze, they would be allowed to reject certain leases/contracts, unsecured debt would be traded, they'll re-emerge in a year or two and stock will begin trading again (new stock... old stock vanishes into the void, as well as all stockholders).
Click to expand...
No automaker has ever emerged from bankruptcy. What do you feel would make this situation different? Why would GM emerge from bankruptcy when others didn't.

Let me sum it up this way, would you buy a car from a bankrupt company and if so, why?
 
Originally posted by: maddogchen
you guys are wrong in looking at the wages per hour. that is not what is killing GM, its the pensions they are still paying out.
Click to expand...
It's health care, not pensions. It's been health care for the longest time.

Pensions are relatively easy to fund and very easy to plan for.
 
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: maddogchen
you guys are wrong in looking at the wages per hour. that is not what is killing GM, its the pensions they are still paying out.
Click to expand...
It's health care, not pensions. It's been health care for the longest time.

Pensions are relatively easy to fund and very easy to plan for.
Click to expand...

well regardless of being one thing or another, the point is when you add all their benefits together they are making more money then most college graduates for an unskilled job. You could pay people overseas (or even non-union workers) much less money for the same product. Something like $2,000 of each car bought is just for healthcare and pensions, if you could pay $2000 less for the same car why the heck would you buy one from the big 3?
 
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: Jeeebus
they would file under Chapter 11, stock trading would freeze, they would be allowed to reject certain leases/contracts, unsecured debt would be traded, they'll re-emerge in a year or two and stock will begin trading again (new stock... old stock vanishes into the void, as well as all stockholders).
Click to expand...
No automaker has ever emerged from bankruptcy. What do you feel would make this situation different? Why would GM emerge from bankruptcy when others didn't.

Let me sum it up this way, would you buy a car from a bankrupt company and if so, why?
Click to expand...

I may be rusty on my history but when has a big automaker gone bankrupt? also its all how GM handels it, to many people would see it as a nessesary step to shed the union.
 
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