Saw this question on r/atheism today.

[OCNewbie]

On some fronts, I think people are puzzled (even jealous) about the fact that a book as old as the Bible can have such an influence on SO MANY people's lives and thinking. To add, its the most widely distributed book in human history, yet it's a complete work of fiction?

How much scrutiny do believers allow the Bible to be subjected to, when doing so is undoubtedly witnessed by an omniscient god, and which, if you believe he's witnessing this breach of faith (and how could he not if he is all knowing?), he is certainly not pleased in one giving serious consideration to the idea that the Bible could be NOT what it claims to be. I know from first-hand experience that that feeling of disappointing God is a very guilt-inducing feeling, which in turn represents a direct opposition to what you've been taught (most likely since birth) is the one true purpose in your life, which is, to please and praise God, and the Bible. It's a pretty great self-sustaining system, bolstered by emotions like guilt, fear, etc.

If such a book existed, that could be a work of fiction, and have such influence over people's thoughts and lives, what book would it be if not the Bible? The Quran maybe, considering it basically follows the same formula the Bible does: promise a gift so great that no man, no matter how rich or powerful, will ever be able to achieve in life, and promise it to EVERYONE, from the crippled beggar in the street to the mightiest of kings, and then make the gift impossible to disprove. Then, pray on the powerful emotion of fear, and make the consequences for not seeking that gift so limitlessly terrifying, where no man's imagination could even begin to grasp the horrors that would await them should they not follow this path, and again, make it impossible to disprove.

 

[Retro Rob]

How much scrutiny do believers allow the Bible to be subjected to, when doing so is undoubtedly witnessed by an omniscient god, and which, if you believe he's witnessing this breach of faith (and how could he not if he is all knowing?), he is certainly not pleased in one giving serious consideration to the idea that the Bible could be NOT what it claims to be. I know from first-hand experience that that feeling of disappointing God is a very guilt-inducing feeling, which in turn represents a direct opposition to what you've been taught (most likely since birth) is the one true purpose in your life, which is, to please and praise God, and the Bible. It's a pretty great self-sustaining system, bolstered by emotions like guilt, fear, etc.

The Bible has been under scrutiny for centuries by both believers and non-believers alike. The issue is, the Bible has been under scrutiny for more than its "miracles", but also for it's history and prophecies.

As I stated earlier, there's a wiki article concerning whether or not Isaiah actually was the one who prophecied that Cyrus would conquer Babylon 200 years before he was even born. Ya know, critics say it's impossible for man to utter such a pointed prophecy so they claim it was another writer that wrote it "during" Cyrus' siege. I've yet to see any real evidence, outside of them pointing out what seems to be "style" differences in the actual account.

It's funny, actually, and their supposed evidence is highly conjectural.

IMO, the Bible is a book that appeals to human beings spiritual side, and that what makes it powerful. It has nothing to do with guilt or fear in and of itself -- you can thank religion for that part.

It attempts to answer questions science cannot address, since on the surface, the theroy of evolution and the Big Bang is void of purpose, and doesn't require it. The difference is, we NEED purpose. This evident in mankind's search for it. Deep down, we all feel there is more to life than what we see... some look to the afterlife, a soul that survives death, hellfire, etc.

 

[sandorski]

The Bible has been under scrutiny for centuries by both believers and non-believers alike. The issue is, the Bible has been under scrutiny for more than its "miracles", but also for it's history and prophecies.

As I stated earlier, there's a wiki article concerning whether or not Isaiah actually was the one who prophecied that Cyrus would conquer Babylon 200 years before he was even born. Ya know, critics say it's impossible for man to utter such a pointed prophecy so they claim it was another writer that wrote it "during" Cyrus' siege. I've yet to see any real evidence, outside of them pointing out what seems to be "style" differences in the actual account.

It's funny, actually, and their supposed evidence is highly conjectural.

IMO, the Bible is a book that appeals to human beings spiritual side, and that what makes it powerful. It has nothing to do with guilt or fear in and of itself -- you can thank religion for that part.

It attempts to answer questions science cannot address, since on the surface, the theroy of evolution and the Big Bang is void of purpose, and doesn't require it. The difference is, we NEED purpose. This evident in mankind's search for it. Deep down, we all feel there is more to life than what we see... some look to the afterlife, a soul that survives death, hellfire, etc.

People found Purpose before the Bible existed. People find Purpose where the Bible isn't adhered to.

 

[Retro Rob]

People found Purpose before the Bible existed. People find Purpose where the Bible isn't adhered to.

I never said they didn't. I am addressing why I think the Bible influences people they way it does today. I am sure people found purpose without it.

Don't give me this "fear and guilt" stuff, because you're just guessing and generalizing, unless you can point to guilt and fear as the cause of people going to the Bible.

 

[sandorski]

I never said they didn't. I am addressing why I think the Bible influences people they way it does today. I am sure people found purpose without it.

Don't give me this "fear and guilt" stuff, because you're just guessing and generalizing, unless you can point to guilt and fear as the cause of people going to the Bible.

Sin is the Guilt, Hell is the fear. You denying that these 2 things are part of the Bible and/or Christianity as a whole?

Certainly there are more Liberal Protestant denominations that don't emphasize those 2 things, but outside of them Guilt/FEar has always been a cornerstone of Christianity.

 

[Retro Rob]

Sin is the Guilt, Hell is the fear. You denying that these 2 things are part of the Bible and/or Christianity as a whole?

Certainly there are more Liberal Protestant denominations that don't emphasize those 2 things, but outside of them Guilt/FEar has always been a cornerstone of Christianity.

Christianity? Yeah, it's been a haven for fear. I wouldn't say the Bible itself is.

I say this becasue when you read through some of it, the OT for instance, God did protect the Israelites from many an enemy, though, when they were disobedient, they faced consequences.

It depends on how one teaches it, or reads it/understands it.

You can certainly say that his people were duped into fear of God due to punishment, but you could also say that obedience resulted in protection. They could have said "hey, listen to God and have protection", or "hey listen to God or go to hell".

It depends on how one interprets the information.

 

[sandorski]

Christianity? Yeah, it's been a haven for fear. I wouldn't say the Bible itself is.

I say this becasue when you read through some of it, the OT for instance, God did protect the Israelites from many an enemy, though, when they were disobedient, they faced consequences.

It depends on how one teaches it, or reads it/understands it.

You can certainly say that his people were duped into fear of God due to punishment, but you could also say that obedience resulted in protection. They could have said "hey, listen to God and have protection", or "hey listen to God or go to hell".

It depends on how one interprets the information.

The Jews didn't/don't believe in Heaven/Hell, but that's neither here nor there. Christians do, most of them anyway, and they are still the dominant Abrahamic Religion, although Islam is gaining ground.

 

[Retro Rob]

The Jews didn't/don't believe in Heaven/Hell, but that's neither here nor there. Christians do, most of them anyway, and they are still the dominant Abrahamic Religion, although Islam is gaining ground.

Let me ask you, where do you think the teachings "Matrydom equals a gift of 72 virigins" or "obey Yahweh or suffer hell" comes from?

The Quran/Bible or religion?

Just curious.

 

[sandorski]

Let me ask you, where do you think the teachings "Matrydom equals a gift of 72 virigins" or "obey Yahweh or suffer hell" comes from?

The Quran/Bible or religion?

Just curious.

I don't know the Quran well enough to talk about the "72 virgins", as for Hell, it is certainly from the Bible. Religion has certainly added to the concept, but the concept comes straight from the Bible itself.

 

[LunarRay]

Heaven and Hell... oh my!

How about (until about 2007 and according to the Catholic Church) Limbo... That place where unbaptised but born souls go if they died.

It seems there is a distinction tween a fetus being miscarried or God forbid aborted and therefore, not born and its destination given at conception that entity is sacrosanct in the eyes of God...

Do you think that the then Cardinal and now Pope figured to draw that distinction tween a born child and a fetus might allow folks to conclude that Born is the time life begins? AND, to eliminate that notion Limbo had to go as well...???

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't know the Quran well enough to talk about the "72 virgins", as for Hell, it is certainly from the Bible. Religion has certainly added to the concept, but the concept comes straight from the Bible itself.

For the French surname, see Houri (surname).


In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah[note 1] (Arabic: حورية&#8206 are commonly translated as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)",[2] "lovely eyed",[3] of "modest gaze",[4] "pure beings" or "companions pure of paradise, denoting humans and jinn who enter Jannah (paradise) after being recreated anew in the hereafter.[5] Islam also has a strong mystical tradition which places these heavenly delights in the context of the ecstatic awareness of God.[6]

I would read, an analogy accessible to the carnal mind for experiences accessible only to the spiritually attuned and thus subject to misinterpretation and abuse by the former.

 

[LunarRay]

Heaven, Hell and Limbo, oh my...

How about Purgatory?

That place it seems everyone goes who has ever sinned and they stay there until some time has mitigated their sins.... that and indulgences earned or bought ala Martin Luther's grievance... Where is it that I can find that place identified with authority?

I'll not really pursue Paradise... but for the heck of it... I'll only ask what is meant by Jesus telling the Thief on the right that on this day he'd be with Jesus in Paradise (as transcribed) and then after Jesus gets up from the dead he tells Mary of Magdalena to not touch him cuz he's not yet been with the Father....
Does that mean there is yet another place but one that God the Father don't hang out in but sorta glorious or what?

 

[Retro Rob]

I don't know the Quran well enough to talk about the "72 virgins", as for Hell, it is certainly from the Bible. Religion has certainly added to the concept, but the concept comes straight from the Bible itself.

Hm, ok.

I think that the "Hell" teachings comes from religion. The Hebrew word "Sheol" and Greek word "hades" (which denotes the common grave of mankind, good or bad -- but only bad people go to Hell right??).

I am still studying up on this myself, but based on this words, hell isn't a teaching of the Bible. A lot of translations have the word hell it in, but based on the greek and hebrew words describing what condition the dead are in, I think religion has taken liberties.

I'm still looking into this, though.

 

[Retro Rob]

Heaven, Hell and Limbo, oh my...

How about Purgatory?

That place it seems everyone goes who has ever sinned and they stay there until some time has mitigated their sins....

Hm.

I'll not really pursue Paradise... but for the heck of it... I'll only ask what is meant by Jesus telling the Thief on the right that on this day he'd be with Jesus in Paradise (as transcribed)

I think he meant what he said. As far as I've studied, that theif had faith and recognized who Jesus was, or he wouldn't have know he was the Son of God, and could deliver Paradise. Right?

Just my opinion.

 

[LunarRay]

Hm.



I think he meant what he said. As far as I've studied, that theif had faith and recognized who Jesus was, or he wouldn't have know he was the Son of God, and could deliver Paradise. Right?

Just my opinion.

Well... my point was that Jesus said the thief would be with him in Paradise that day... however, Jesus told Mary he'd not yet been with the Father after he rose from the dead and before he assended into heaven which sorta means to me that Paradise was yet another place.... A place where Jesus went when he and the thief died but not heaven assuming God is in Heaven... and if that is not the case, where are these Folks, Jesus and the Thief destined for upon death?

 

[OCNewbie]

Well... my point was that Jesus said the thief would be with him in Paradise that day... however, Jesus told Mary he'd not yet been with the Father after he rose from the dead and before he assended into heaven which sorta means to me that Paradise was yet another place.... A place where Jesus went when he and the thief died but not heaven assuming God is in Heaven... and if that is not the case, where are these Folks, Jesus and the Thief destined for upon death?

Trying to make sense out of the Bible, and finding it difficult? *shocked*

 

[LunarRay]

Trying to make sense out of the Bible, and finding it difficult? *shocked*

Verily, I say to you that during all the years I spent in Catholic Academy, High Skule and even into College, I could not ever reconcile what was originally written and transcribed into the Bible (the one with the Imprimatur) and what I observed, read or was taught contemporaneously with my tenure in those Skules. There was always some and perhaps minor and major issues, as I saw it....
I'd always ask the Brothers, Nuns and other Priests for clarification and always without a reasonable result....

 

[Charles Kozierok]

If you think making sense of the bible is tough, try reading the Quran. Hooo boy.

 

[Moonbeam]

Trying to make sense out of the Bible, and finding it difficult? *shocked*

Trying to make sense out of a LunarRay post and finding it difficult? Shocked, I tell you, like looking for stars with a microscope.

 

[OCNewbie]

Trying to make sense out of a LunarRay post and finding it difficult? Shocked, I tell you, like looking for stars with a microscope.

I actually understood his most recent post, but I did have to look up "Imprimatur".

 

[LunarRay]

Regarding the biblical writings... and that they were written well after the Life of Jesus...

I wonder what the earliest manuscript on the 'teachings' of Plato is.... or Homer or many others... Do we agree they existed?

I like to look to compelling factors that support of deny a proposition...

For three hundred years Christians willingly gave up their lives as lion food or other interesting attempts to get the Christian to deny and abandon their faith... but they didn't... Seems to me compelling that folks would do that in support of some really deep faith being they were Jews essentially and the Jew awaited the Messiah but this group seem to have been convinced by some means that they already had him...

They seemed to not fear death but did fear the loss of their faith.... interesting notion that...

 

[LunarRay]

If you think making sense of the bible is tough, try reading the Quran. Hooo boy.

As Emperor Joseph told Mozart... Too many notes...

I have confronted the Quran but not from an edification seeking aspect. I read with a view toward finding conflict... Or something that answered why I always deferred to Science over anything 'Religious'. IF I see a white rock the dang thing is both white and a rock... I don't care what the Church calls it...


BTW, Grats on your new position and I hope you both enjoy the new challenge and achieve the environment that many have sought.

 

[sandorski]

Regarding the biblical writings... and that they were written well after the Life of Jesus...

I wonder what the earliest manuscript on the 'teachings' of Plato is.... or Homer or many others... Do we agree they existed?

I like to look to compelling factors that support of deny a proposition...

For three hundred years Christians willingly gave up their lives as lion food or other interesting attempts to get the Christian to deny and abandon their faith... but they didn't... Seems to me compelling that folks would do that in support of some really deep faith being they were Jews essentially and the Jew awaited the Messiah but this group seem to have been convinced by some means that they already had him...

They seemed to not fear death but did fear the loss of their faith.... interesting notion that...

Fairly common among Religious people in a variety of Religions.

 

[LunarRay]

Fairly common among Religious people in a variety of Religions.

Yes it is... But, if I saw a hungry lion and I could escape his gaze by proclaiming the alligator god justly reigns over all of Solana Beach I would... I'm no Thomas Moore and I don't really understand the motivator for martyrdom. Seems counter intuitive to me....

That may answer why some accept the Earth to be 6000 years old though... Guess my faith is enough to move a cup of coffee a few inches while I'd never attempt to move a mountain without dynamite and dozer...

 

[LunarRay]

I say this because when you read through some of it, the OT for instance, God did protect the Israelites from many an enemy, though, when they were disobedient, they faced consequences.

Under the premise that God is All Powerful, All Knowing and Eternal, it would seem to me that God indeed acts in strange ways if what you say is true... He has to protect folks to allow them to disobey so to punish them... Almost sounds like a Saddam Hussein.
He sends his kid on a suicide mission (or himself depending on your view) cuz the first bunch of laws were wrong? He knew what would develop so why not do the New Covenant first... lots easier... IF God created the Universe he also created Conservation of Energy and violated it lots and lots of times.
He gave us Free Will then denies us it to invoke 'Well, Its God's Will' ...

He creates Hell so to torment folks eternally.... Thanks for that... But, then the alternative is Heaven or one of the other locale he apparently set up... so that there would be a carrot.... to go with the whip...

He inspires folks to write a book that hardly any people had access to until James VI or James I if you like the English made it available to the masses.... A book that his New Covenant follower clergy used to torture and kill folks and he had to know this too.

He creates a place where folks reading essentially the same book kill each other because it's his will? Catholic and Protestant seem really a lot alike. But not in Ireland...

The only thing that makes sense to me and that allows me to accept there is a God is to agree that beyond all there is... is God and what he set in motion continues in motion free from any God intervention excepting the mission of Jesus... and because what evolved to be humans did what the hell they wanted and loving him was not an essential part of that so given an empty heaven was not his desire he intervened but knew he'd have to from the start.