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Saw this question on r/atheism today.

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That's an interesting hypothesis. So you actually think that a group of people deliberately met to craft a religion based entirely of pieces of myths and other religions. What is your rationale for holding this belief? Do you have any actual evidence of collusion and intent to deceive mankind?

It's actually pretty common and not restricted to Christianity. Anytime an area was conquered or a new religion was put in place they would assimilate the old ones. Look at Christianity vs Paganism or Voodoo even.

This must have occurred to you when you celebrated Christmas. Obviously Jesus wasn't born in December.
 
So is the basic gist of these discussions with religious people that they can't come up with any examples of anything and that we "just don't understand"?

This was a very one sided stomping of those of you trying to defend your religious position.

I'll pretty much reiterate that it's a mental problem. Religious pathological sickness. If anyone today claims that they see visions and zombies we institutionalize them.
From my perspective I think the basic gist is that spirituality transcends the scope of rationality. It answers questions for some that would otherwise be unanswerable...it quells an emptiness that is otherwise unrelenting...it brings a semblance of peace and purpose in a mad, mad world.
 
If you read all of the sets of mythology, and then cross compare them, you see the similarities in stories. It's really not a big stretch of the imagination to think that as stories get passed on from one generation to the next, that they change slightly in nature and get combined with others. As mentioned earlier in the thread, most early Christians literally didn't even know how to read, so it's not hard to picture that the early common man wasn't knowledgeable enough about other cultures of the past several thousand years to be able to draw parallels, like we can now given our advancements in technology and communication.
It's a huge stretch of the imagination! What evidence do you have other than idle speculation that you imagine might be true? Seriously.
 
It's a huge stretch of the imagination! What evidence do you have other than idle speculation that you imagine might be true? Seriously.

Maybe the fact that all of the stories in the bible about Jesus were written by people who never met him? If so, what else could they be but stories handed down?


From my perspective I think the basic gist is that spirituality transcends the scope of rationality. It answers questions for some that would otherwise be unanswerable...it quells an emptiness that is otherwise unrelenting...it brings a semblance of peace and purpose in a mad, mad world.

That's a very flowery way of saying that you convince yourself to believe things you know are nonsense, because it makes you feel better.

And that's fine, as long as you recognize what you're doing, and that -- again coming back to the OP -- the world perceives you as such.
 
It's a huge stretch of the imagination! What evidence do you have other than idle speculation that you imagine might be true? Seriously.

In all seriousness, this is why I say its a waste of time. You're not going to a straight answer, no evidence, nothing.

In an age of so-called needing "proof" and "evidence" before assuming a certain position on things of this nature, you can take a stand AGAINST the Bible and EVERYTHING in it, and be exempt from providing proof (as demonstrated by nearly every anti-Bible poster in here) At the same time, you can't stand for it, without evidence.

lol
 
fucking_science_ruins_everything_63c1f5_4417813.png
 
So is the basic gist of these discussions with religious people that they can't come up with any examples of anything and that we "just don't understand"?

This was a very one sided stomping of those of you trying to defend your religious position.

I'll pretty much reiterate that it's a mental problem. Religious pathological sickness. If anyone today claims that they see visions and zombies we institutionalize them.

:thumbsup:
 
So...what exactly are you saying? That it was all a diabolical and incredibly elaborate hoax perpetrated on mankind? Really?

This is unbelievable to you, but you believe in someone turning water into wine, rising from the dead, etc... because someone wrote about it in a book 2000 years ago.

Ok...
 
From my perspective I think the basic gist is that spirituality transcends the scope of rationality. It answers questions for some that would otherwise be unanswerable...it quells an emptiness that is otherwise unrelenting...it brings a semblance of peace and purpose in a mad, mad world.

But if so, you can imagine, I hope, why those who don't have it might be a bit upset that they can't be convinced to by something that approached logic, or why you, might just prefer not to pay too much attention to what they would call logic, no? It would seem, in short, that believers can be said to have a motivation to believe and deniers a motivation not to. It would also explain the fascination each has for the other and why both sides argue and why also, a third alternative never sees the light of day.
 
Imagine if you were an idiot savant of all the types there are and had full access to all your faculties, that you could open all the doors to all the functions your brain can perform, but you did it all without any effort and just knew.

You might be able to sail up the Mekong Delta in war time by navigating a course you were sure to survive or God knows what else.
 
In all seriousness, this is why I say its a waste of time. You're not going to a straight answer, no evidence, nothing.

In an age of so-called needing "proof" and "evidence" before assuming a certain position on things of this nature, you can take a stand AGAINST the Bible and EVERYTHING in it, and be exempt from providing proof (as demonstrated by nearly every anti-Bible poster in here) At the same time, you can't stand for it, without evidence.

lol

You can't provide evidence that something doesn't exist.

You can, however, provide evidence that something does exist, if it actually exists.

What you're saying is the equivalent of "prove to me that a magical unicorn didn't jump 17 rainbows in a row, in a galaxy far far away". I can't provide evidence that the unicorn didn't jump rainbows, but neither can you provide evidence that it did. Therefore it is complete speculation and no different than a made up fantasy.
 
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You can't provide evidence that something doesn't exist.

You can, however, provide evidence that something does exist, if it actually exists.

What you're saying is the equivalent of "prove to me that a magical unicorn didn't jump 17 rainbows in a row, in a galaxy far far away". I can't provide evidence that the unicorn didn't jump rainbows, but neither can you provide evidence that it did. Therefore it is complete speculation and no different than a made up fantasy.

You know what, I hear where you're coming from, but here's the problem with your analogy:

Jesus has not only the backing of modern day scholars, but also those of his time including what Doc posted earlier in the thread. What makes your burden of proof so heavy (that is, if you indeed deny he ever existed) is that you not only have to prove your case against the Biblical narrative, but also prove why all these people, both past and present, are wrong. You just can't say, for instance, he didn't exist and think you can walk away from proving that - especially seeing the support he has.

No one, that I know of, is cooberating a story about a rainbow jumping unicorn. So there's nothing to prove or disprove there.
 
I don't think he is, just wait for his response and then decide.

CharlesKozierok was talking about you.

You have run away from every concrete point, and hide behind a book backing up a book, written two thousand years ago by a bunch of people that didn't actually witness a bunch of stuff that supposedly happened, that just so happens to be the same type of stuff that supposedly happened from other religions even before that.
 
He's ineducable. And a perfect illustration of the OP of this thread.

CharlesKozierok was talking about you.

You have run away from every concrete point, and hide behind a book backing up a book, written two thousand years ago by a bunch of people that didn't actually witness a bunch of stuff that supposedly happened, that just so happens to be the same type of stuff that supposedly happened from other religions even before that.

Why haven't you addressed my post? I simply mentioned modern day scholars too. Are they all wrong, dillusional... ?
 
Why haven't you addressed my post? I simply mentioned modern day scholars too. Are they all wrong, dillusional... ?

What did these Scholars say? You be surprised what Biblical Scholars think. Many are certainly Believers, but their view of the Bible likely differs significantly from yours.
 
What did these Scholars say? You be surprised what Biblical Scholars think. Many are certainly Believers, but their view of the Bible likely differs significantly from yours.

Oh I agree. But that's not what I was saying.

All I was saying was that they accept Jesus as a real person. I am not concerned, for the sake of the discussion, how they view the Bible.

Of course it is different.
 
Your opinion.

Again, all specualtion, opinion, no facts coming from you all.

And none of it is speculation on your part? Just because something has been written at some point in the distant past doesn't make it any more valid than anything else. So many specifics about when the books of the bible were written, who wrote them, and references to date and time for biblical events, and what the translations and language from the period really meant is under dispute by so many people. So how do you make the claim that what you have to day and what is interpreted from that is in any way the genuine article?
With all this hate in your post for Christians and the Bible, why bother? Im not going through the trouble of finding this for you and you will dismiss whatever I post because you are a hatemonger. Thats the old game you hatemongers play. :|
Don't confuse hatred with logical scrutiny.



I'll start paying attention to Christ's teachings when Christians start to.
If more people did this, the world would be a much better place.


Yep, everytime someone brings something to the table, it's a "trick" or "generous interpretation", or "Forgery" or [insert statement of denial here].. all done under the false premise of what's in there can't be true becasue I said it isn't, while not offering one shred of solid evidence to back the claim that is absent of speculation.
Not a trick, just a rational explanation.


Many historians mentioned him. If he wasn't a legend in his time how do you explain the incredibly rapid spread of Christianity?
there are non biblical historical accounts of Jesus at approximately that time period. And given the fact that there were many prophets and that Jeshua (Aramaic for Jesus) was a common given name at that time, sugget a probability that there was a Prophet by the name of Jeshua around the 1st century AD. However claims such as walking on water resurrection etc. Can easily be chalked up to embellishments by the Council of Nicea, and The Council of Ephesus in order to convert Rome to Christianity at the time.

That's an interesting hypothesis. So you actually think that a group of people deliberately met to craft a religion based entirely of pieces of myths and other religions. What is your rationale for holding this belief? Do you have any actual evidence of collusion and intent to deceive mankind?
LMAO!

Go learn some history because that is basically what happened.
Constantine converted Rome to Christianity in the 4th century. In the process, much of the doctrine was revised to include elements of Paganism and Mythology. Christmas, and Easter hold their origins in Pagan celebrations of the winter solstice and spring equinox.
Constantine is the man most directly responsible for the spread and dominance of Christianity throughout the west. He also gave the Catholic Church Authority at around that time. Prior to this Christianity was widely considered a cult with small underground sects throughout the empire and was banned until the early 4th century.


It's a huge stretch of the imagination! What evidence do you have other than idle speculation that you imagine might be true? Seriously.
Projection 🙂
 
Oh I agree. But that's not what I was saying.

All I was saying was that they accept Jesus as a real person. I am not concerned, for the sake of the discussion, how they view the Bible.

Of course it is different.

Then the question is: Why do they accept Jesus as a real person?

Most, probably because it is what they believe. Few of them are likely experts on identifying Historical fact from fiction and of those I doubt that many would be able to look at the facts without some bias.

Biblical Scholars are mostly focused upon the integrity of the Document. Meaning, they try to ensure the accuracy of Translations and are not really focused on proving what the Bible says actually happened, although many of them certainly believe it.

Few Historians will outright reject the existence of Jesus, but few will also accept the details of what the Gospels have to say about him. Truth is, there is very little to no evidence of his existence.
 
Then the question is: Why do they accept Jesus as a real person?

Most, probably because it is what they believe. Few of them are likely experts on identifying Historical fact from fiction and of those I doubt that many would be able to look at the facts without some bias.

Biblical Scholars are mostly focused upon the integrity of the Document. Meaning, they try to ensure the accuracy of Translations and are not really focused on proving what the Bible says actually happened, although many of them certainly believe it.

Few Historians will outright reject the existence of Jesus, but few will also accept the details of what the Gospels have to say about him. Truth is, there is very little to no evidence of his existence.

I don't know why they accept him as a real person, but I am also not ready to attribute shady motives to people whom I don't know, like you seem to be.

At any rate, if you're ready to assert that all of them are wrong, just show some evidence demonstrating that they are wrong.

If you're not, you can simply not believe.

If you don't believe the Gospel accounts, then I won't fault you. But I'm sure you agree that there's a huge contrast between not believing something, and saying something isn't true.
 
I don't know why they accept him as a real person, but I am also not ready to attribute shady motives to people whom I don't know, like you seem to be.

At any rate, if you're ready to assert that all of them are wrong, just show some evidence demonstrating that they are wrong.

If you're not, you can simply not believe.

If you don't believe the Gospel accounts, then I won't fault you. But I'm sure you agree that there's a huge contrast between not believing something, and saying something isn't true.

It is extremely unlikely that what the Gospels claims is true. To believe those claims requires extraordinary evidence. The Gospels simply can not be considered evidence for the many reasons already posted in this thread.
 
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