Saw this question on r/atheism today.

[Retro Rob]

Let me clarify a bit - if a scientist works on the CERN project, performs some experiments, etc., then goes home and blogs about how the Patriots didn't deserve to win the superbowl, that doesn't mean his opinion is science.

Well, Krauss did say that "science shows us there's no evidence of purpose", so I assumed that some kind of study was conductued to disprove an assumption of purpose.

I will accept the correction on this, however.

 

[Juddog]

Well, Krauss did say that "science shows us there's no evidence of purpose", so I assumed that some kind of study was conductued to disprove an assumption of purpose.

I will accept the correction on this, however.

Krauss is arguing his point based upon evidence - without any evidence of something, it's hard to get science involved.

Example: If I make a statement that in a parallel universe, there existed a boy that was part unicorn, then there is nothing you can say to disprove that. You can neither prove nor disprove something that has no way of being tested and has no evidence to back it, therefore it's irrelevant whether it may or may not exist.

That is the case here; what Dawkins, et al., are trying to do is offer a logical proof that something which has no evidence and no way to be tested is either non existent, or if it does exist, is completely irrelevant.

 

[Atreus21]

You should understand the difference between "people who are Atheists" and "Atheists" as a collective.

People who are Atheists persecuted the religious in the Soviet Union. Atheists as a collective have no directive to persecute the religious. If you had read what he was establishing you'd understand the difference.

When atheists commit an atrocity, we should be careful to distinguish between atheists acting as a group and people who are atheists.

When theists commit an atrocity, it is clearly indicative of a larger directive.

 

[Atreus21]

Let me put it this way: as a theist, you probably do not want to accept the implication inherent in "theism is as theists do." Likewise, atheism is not as atheists do.

Of course I don't. Atheists do, as long as the target is theists.

I wouldn't want to debate that either, if I were a theist.

Oh, it's not out of fear for my position. I just don't want to open another debate, although it'll probably devolve into that anyway.

 

[Atreus21]

Krauss is arguing his point based upon evidence - without any evidence of something, it's hard to get science involved.

Example: If I make a statement that in a parallel universe, there existed a boy that was part unicorn, then there is nothing you can say to disprove that. You can neither prove nor disprove something that has no way of being tested and has no evidence to back it, therefore it's irrelevant whether it may or may not exist.

That is the case here; what Dawkins, et al., are trying to do is offer a logical proof that something which has no evidence and no way to be tested is either non existent, or if it does exist, is completely irrelevant.

All of creation is evidence of a creator.

 

[Juddog]

All of creation is evidence of a creator.

Reality exists, therefore aliens.

See what I did there?

 

[Atreus21]

Reality exists, therefore aliens.

See what I did there?

Yes, you mocked. Well done. The irony is that your mocking makes more sense then, "Reality exists, therefore nothing."

 

[Retro Rob]

Krauss is arguing his point based upon evidence - without any evidence of something, it's hard to get science involved.

So?

Science cannot be involved in everything anyway... there are things that happen in life that won't get a scientific explanation.

Again.... so what? It's life, let people believe what they want. Just because some things can't be tested in lab doesn't mean anything, really.

The sheer amount of things we do in life with little to no evidence testifies to the fact that science doesn't need to get involved.

Try explaining to your mate that you won't buy a house or go on vacation because you don't have "sufficient evidence" that your venture will succeed. Tell her you won't go to work until you have "testable and repeatable" evidence confirming that you will make it home safely after work for the next several decades.

 

[Ausm]

When atheists commit an atrocity, we should be careful to distinguish between atheists acting as a group and people who are atheists.

When theists commit an atrocity, it is clearly indicative of a larger directive.

Hitler was a Christian....Fact!

 

[Atreus21]

Hitler was a Christian....Fact!

True. Stalin was an atheist.

 

[Retro Rob]

When atheists commit an atrocity, we should be careful to distinguish between atheists acting as a group and people who are atheists.

When theists commit an atrocity, it is clearly indicative of a larger directive.

LOL that's what I was thinking.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Hitler was a Christian....Fact!

When God says "thou shall not kill" and you kill millions of times, you are not Christian. Christians do not proclaim themselves to be replacements for God either.

Hitler was an antichrist.

Atheists are just annoying.

 

[Juddog]

When God says "thou shall not kill" and you kill millions of times, you are not Christian. Christians do not proclaim themselves to be replacements for God either.

Hitler was an antichrist.

Atheists are just annoying.

These are all from the bible, saying it's ok to murder people under the right circumstances:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

These are all from the bible, saying it's ok to murder people under the right circumstances:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

You know nothing Juddog. Christians are all about the New Testament and a new covenant.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

All of creation is evidence of a creator.

That's.. more than a little circular, lol.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

That's.. more than a little circular, lol.

“Wonder is the beginning of wisdom.” ― Socrates

Also...please read my sig.

 

[SMOGZINN]

You know nothing Juddog. Christians are all about the New Testament and a new covenant.

Matthew 5:18 - For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

 

[Retro Rob]

Matthew 5:18 - For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Everything is accomplished.

Jesus lived and died, hence, he accomplished (stayed faithful as a perfect man, which Adam couldn't, and was killed as prophesied) and did away with the "smallest letter", or the Law.

So he's right.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

“Wonder is the beginning of wisdom.” ― Socrates

Aye -- but for many it is also the end of any attempt at wisdom.

As for Einstein's quote, his beliefs were some mishmash of atheist, deist and pantheist. He certainly didn't believe in anything like the Christian idea of God.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Jesus lived and died, hence, he accomplished (stayed faithful as a perfect man, which Adam couldn't, and was killed as prophesied) and did away with the "smallest letter", or the Law.

How do you know?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Matthew 5:18 - For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

You omitted the prior sentence: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Context is everything.

Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15

It absolutely amazes me that we have so many people living in a primarily Christian nation who understand so little about it.

 

[Retro Rob]

How do you know?

You were once religious, draw on your previous understanding, if you even had an undertsanding to begin with.

 

[SMOGZINN]

You omitted the prior sentence: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Context is everything.

Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15

It absolutely amazes me that we have so many people living in a primarily Christian nation who understand so little about it.

He has not come again, heaven and earth have not disappeared. So you can hardly say that everything is accomplished.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

You were once religious, draw on your previous understanding, if you even had an undertsanding to begin with.

Yes, I was religious until I realized that I had been programmed into believing things by people whose only evidence was a set of books they had been told were true by other people who had themselves been told it was true by other people, and so forth.

So, how do you know any of that happened?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

All of creation is evidence of a creator.

Clearly you do not understand how evidence works. A is only evidence for B if A implies B and there could exist some not-A that implies not-B. You have said that there can not exist a not-A that implies not-B. This is unfalsifiability.

That's on top of the fact that you are question-begging by labeling reality a "creation" in the first place.