You could ask the same question toward well known atheist states in human history many of which practiced communism.
Where they rational in behavior when it came to forcing people with opposing political and religious views into gulags, re-education/slave labor camps and operating secret police forces?In addition to violently quelling calls for greater individual freedoms among their own populace.
The reality is the question being asked is fundamentally and logically flawed as it only works if one already believes that all people of religious faith are prone to being irrational. Just as if the same type of question were asked except in manner that questions the morality, honest, ethical nature of atheists in general. Of which most rational atheists would consider as insulting in its premise and structure if proposed.
88keys:
Here's how I see it.
Considering all of the hatred and bigotry in the world and how often religious beliefs are used as an excuse for this. The best, most current example of religion and hate would be Islam. They commit endless atrocities in the name of their god. Christianity don't exactly have a clean slate either historically speaking.
The questions I arrive at are; in a world without religion, would all of these people still find a reason to beat, burn and kill other people?
M: The answer, I believe is yes
88: Are people just simply irrational and violent by their nature and would be so with or without religion?
M: I believe that we are animals with all the survival instincts animals have, like teeth and claws and intelligence to survive and compete against others who have the same tools. But a look at Buddhist culture or the Tibetans show us variations of that picture. The kind of violence you refer to is in my opinion the result of learned self hate. It is the propose of religion, I believe to bring us in contact with a consciousness free of it. For example, in the Christian faith, we are told that our sins have been forgiven. I believe that a deep realization of that fact uproots self hate, but I also don't think many Christians really feel forgiven because it is tremendously difficult to allow yourself to face how one really feels. Religion, then is a bridge to a different state of being. People get attached to the bridge instead of crossing it.
88: Does this make them more likely to be religious, or interpret their religion in such a way to make it violent? I believe that all the great religions of the world were bridged created at some time and place suited for the minds of the folk who surrounded some teacher who experienced the transformation from self hate to self acceptance down to its root. Untransformed humans then fuck up that religion.
88: For the most part, I tend to lean more towards the latter part of the question
I don't, but anyway.....
Religion is not an intellectual exercise. But there is one kind of Yoga that people for whom it is suited can go straight to self realization. Religions that worship God go through the heart. Martial artists go through the body. Then there are combinations. Those who concern themselves with self realization, according to the little I know, need a teacher who knows the path to show them the way. Such a teacher may be a specialist in knowing who needs what. The scientists who practice this invisible inner journey are often called idiots. The knowledge they acquire can only be known tested and verified internally as experience. The work leads to the extinction of self and God realization. The mental hospitals may be full of people who have a natural talent for this but no knowledge, no teacher, and no foundation. Religion is a good foundation for this kind of work broadcast out into the world to give as many people as possible a chance.
Here's how I see it.
Considering all of the hatred and bigotry in the world and how often religious beliefs are used as an excuse for this. The best, most current example of religion and hate would be Islam. They commit endless atrocities in the name of their god. Christianity don't exactly have a clean slate either historically speaking.
The questions I arrive at are; in a world without religion, would all of these people still find a reason to beat, burn and kill other people?
M: The answer, I believe is yes
88: Are people just simply irrational and violent by their nature and would be so with or without religion?
M: I believe that we are animals with all the survival instincts animals have, like teeth and claws and intelligence to survive and compete against others who have the same tools. But a look at Buddhist culture or the Tibetans show us variations of that picture. The kind of violence you refer to is in my opinion the result of learned self hate. It is the propose of religion, I believe to bring us in contact with a consciousness free of it. For example, in the Christian faith, we are told that our sins have been forgiven. I believe that a deep realization of that fact uproots self hate, but I also don't think many Christians really feel forgiven because it is tremendously difficult to allow yourself to face how one really feels. Religion, then is a bridge to a different state of being. People get attached to the bridge instead of crossing it.
88: Does this make them more likely to be religious, or interpret their religion in such a way to make it violent? I believe that all the great religions of the world were bridged created at some time and place suited for the minds of the folk who surrounded some teacher who experienced the transformation from self hate to self acceptance down to its root. Untransformed humans then fuck up that religion.
88: For the most part, I tend to lean more towards the latter part of the question
I don't, but anyway.....
Religion is not an intellectual exercise. But there is one kind of Yoga that people for whom it is suited can go straight to self realization. Religions that worship God go through the heart. Martial artists go through the body. Then there are combinations. Those who concern themselves with self realization, according to the little I know, need a teacher who knows the path to show them the way. Such a teacher may be a specialist in knowing who needs what. The scientists who practice this invisible inner journey are often called idiots. The knowledge they acquire can only be known tested and verified internally as experience. The work leads to the extinction of self and God realization. The mental hospitals may be full of people who have a natural talent for this but no knowledge, no teacher, and no foundation. Religion is a good foundation for this kind of work broadcast out into the world to give as many people as possible a chance.
klinc
Senior member
- Jan 30, 2011
- 555
- 0
- 0
Atheists and Religious people are both irrational. They both have a belief in something that is not provable.
Religion is really a product of control. It's also a product of bad parenting. Rather than think for themselves when they have kids and teach life's lessons in a logical and loving way they rely on their church, mosque, temple, covenant, etc. The problem is that there's a whole bunch of crazy bullshit that goes along with these lessons. If you can't teach your child right from wrong without the bible then there's something seriously wrong with you. I can't imagine teaching my child that there are angels and demons, heaven and hell, god and the devil, adam and eve, Jesus and his resurrection, etc. I would literally have to become retarded to do it.
Religion is really a product of control. It's also a product of bad parenting. Rather than think for themselves when they have kids and teach life's lessons in a logical and loving way they rely on their church, mosque, temple, covenant, etc. The problem is that there's a whole bunch of crazy bullshit that goes along with these lessons. If you can't teach your child right from wrong without the bible then there's something seriously wrong with you. I can't imagine teaching my child that there are angels and demons, heaven and hell, god and the devil, adam and eve, Jesus and his resurrection, etc. I would literally have to become retarded to do it.
dank69
Lifer
- Oct 6, 2009
- 37,446
- 33,147
- 136
When your prophecies don't come to fruition, change the numbers. Let me know what youtube video to watch on Feb 16th, Harold.
Olikan
Platinum Member
- Sep 23, 2011
- 2,023
- 275
- 126
me too
atheist today became more an anti-religion, than someone that just don't care :|
If there were as many "in your face" Christians as there are "in your face" atheists, I'd be a very happy man.
1prophet
Diamond Member
- Aug 17, 2005
- 5,313
- 534
- 126
They progressed, they now have their own church.:hmm:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/08/atheist-church-sunday-assembly_n_2432911.html
Matt1970
Lifer
- Mar 19, 2007
- 12,320
- 3
- 0
The only thing that can be disproven is things didn't happen exactly how they are explained in a book that a handfull of people assembled and decided what should and shouldn't be in there.
As far as the great leaps and bounds of scientific discovery goes we have made great progress however we have really just scratched the surface. We still don't know where life comes from and haven't even sent a man beyond earth's gravity.
klinc
Senior member
- Jan 30, 2011
- 555
- 0
- 0
But what do they preach? Is it a church or just a social gathering of individuals looking to relax. There is no criteria or laws that will make them agree as each have a different point of view
1prophet
Diamond Member
- Aug 17, 2005
- 5,313
- 534
- 126
No more retarded than the greatest mass brainwashing medium invented by man, television, which many parents use to raise their children into the selfish adults we are today especially through the constant advertisements that promote the self before others.
The greatest control comes from those able to use the inherent desires present in humans in order to control them.
MtnMan
Diamond Member
- Jul 27, 2004
- 9,436
- 8,840
- 136
There is a reason for that, because religion is the greatest threat that exists today for our freedoms and the future of mankind.
Your "just don't care" mindset about the greatest threat is just irrational.
Olikan
Platinum Member
- Sep 23, 2011
- 2,023
- 275
- 126
Olikan
Platinum Member
- Sep 23, 2011
- 2,023
- 275
- 126
Some lump agnostics and weak atheists together.
I prefer to think of it this way: weak atheists say they do not believe in gods due to lack of evidence, while agnostics say they are not sure whether or not they believe in gods.
This does get kind of messy. There are no simple answers everyone agrees with.
Dawkins's belief spectrum is also interesting. On that scale, I'd say "4" is agnosticism, "5" and "6" are weak atheism, and "7" is strong atheism.
Last edited:
Atreus21
Lifer
- Aug 21, 2007
- 12,001
- 571
- 126
To the extent that people are controlled by their beliefs or non-beliefs and get into endless internet arguments over it, it is just like another religion.
Well, if you want to just redefine the word to mean anything you want, then everything can be a religion.
Not particularly useful, however.
Lack of belief in gods is no more a "religion" than lack of belief in dragons.
While I agree with your point, there probably would be if almost everyone else in the world played some version of golf (with some not even resembling each other but still considered golf)
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