Saw Fahrenheit 9/11; Changed My Mind (now, with cliff notes!!!)

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happyhelper

Senior member
Feb 20, 2002
344
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Originally posted by: Ilmater
Cliff Notes:
I hate Michael Moore.
Bush cut military benefits while at the same time sending troops to war. <-- sick fvck
I'm voting for Kerry (or maybe Nader).

I hate Michael Moore. I want to make that clear. He distorts facts and/or outright lies in his movies (otherwise known as propaganda).

Unlike politicians, who distort facts, outright lie and make deceptive implications every time they open their mouths.

So, as I'm watching his movie (I think you kind of have to if you're political at all, or else you can't intelligently disagree) I'm really jsut spending most of the time explaining to myself why the things he's saying aren't true. Most of them are ridiculous. For instance, he makes a REALLY big deal about how the "big, bad Bush administration" blacked out a name that was in Bush's military records when he released them. He fails to mention that EVERY name is blacked out across ALL pages of the document, and in fact, the "big, bad Bush administration" had nothing to do with it. It's standard military practice.

I did the same... that's what I do when I read things or watch things or listen to things. It's a good practice. However, I Try not to reject things just because they don't fit my view... it's more like I try to add the new information to the old information that was already in my head. I put very little in the section of my mind called "known facts" and have a "here's what I've been told so far" section where I Try to remember View A and View B and View C, etc. I don't like automatically rejecting ideas just because I "think" or "feel like" they may not be right, although I do reject ideas when they contradict my first-hand knowledge. So, after watching Moore's newest film, not reluctantly but cautiously, I looked online for criticisms, and found plenty, mostly from people who had never seen it, but I did find a couple in newsweek and NYTimes and some conservative sites that were written by people who actually saw the film. They did make some valid points, IMO, and that part of my memory that was storing "Saudi royal family loaned 1.4 billion to Bush" according to Moore now also stores "Suadi Royal family only loaned 300 million to Bush directly, the other 1.1 billion to companies Bush was intimately involved with" according to NYTimes and "Saudi Royal family probably loans 100s of billions more to Bush supporters, contributors and interests that support Bush which, on the whole, have interests terribly different from my own" according to my own educated guess. And there were other things in that film, of course, that have been criticized as being deceptive which I noted, as well.

However, I digress. As I was saying, I was watching the movie and discounting things, when I noticed something that I knew to be true. Bush decided it would be a good idea to cut pay to veterans and active soldiers. I know this one point to be true.

Yes, of course that was true. There are a lot of military complaints besides that. A lot of soldiers over there had inadequate armor. I remember being in a chat room one day and this guy was just going off about how soldiers were dying because there was inadequate armor for the troops. So they have a limited budget, and would rather give contracts to Bush's friends, Haliburton and the Bin Laden Construction Company and other firms, rather than adequately protecting the troops... that's pretty crappy, IMO... but you know, to Bush, and any chicken-hawk, a reasonable number of fodder (oops I mean troops) are expendable, they are cheaper than Hummers.

I used to give Bush a pass on this because I didn't (and still don't) like Kerry, but that's ridiculous.

Me neither. In my lifetime, there hasn't been a political candidate for President that I liked who didn't need at least 45 million more votes to win. I've never supported a Democrat, and I argued with lots of friends four years ago who supported Gore, because I hoped to convince them to vote Libertarian and if not that, Republican (which is what I was registered as until 2000). The only thing I really disliked about Bush was his stance on torte-reform (which I see as hampering or infringing on the duty of the judicial system, much like mandatory minimum sentences - basically the legislative branch over-ruling the judicial branch's decision-making ability) and the chance that he might do some things to please fundy Christians which I would not like. But Gore, I predicted he would be worse than Bush, IMO, with further regulation of health-care (although the Republicans are largely responsible for over-regulating that particular industry, anyway), expansion of social programs that I don't like and I expected an overall forceful escalation of socialism (and taxation) in the USA from Gore, so I couldn't stand Gore.

After Bush became President, I was extremely disappointed with his handling of 911. Most people approved, but I didn't. To me, if we were to be attacked by a foreign country, we wouldn't wait a couple months to strike back. It struck me that our military wasn't prepared to strike back against an attack on our country immediately except with nuclear weapons (they are, I am assuming and hoping, still always ready to go at the press of a button). To me, that is disgraceful. We have the most powerful military in the world, the strongest economy - we're the only superpower, and we're an obvious target for anybody "mad at life" yet it takes 2 months to attack someone who has attacked us?

A lot of people have said they think Bush is cocky - and in general I disagree. However, a leader (or country) that is so cocky from the belief that nobody can or will attack it, and thus has no ability to immediately respond to being attacked defies logic.

Bush dropped the ball on 911, we should have never been attacked like that - the country is not run right, and apparently he didn't do anything to change it until it was too late. "The squeeky wheel gets the grease" is some old saying, meaning that people (or politicians) tend to fix what can be heard (seen), but don't bother with what can't be heard (or seen - problems that are not directly evident). Bush (and probably many of his predecessors) only seemed to be concerned (and hindsight reveals this to be true) with fixing things that the public notices... things like top secret military and security stuff being decades out of date (only immediate response to an attack is nuclear, the ridiculous absence of security related to nuclear and chemical facilities and airline security, and our still unprotected borders, although al-Qaeda declared war on the US in 1991 and we (those in power or in the know) have known what types of attacks they would be most likely to use for over a decade).

So, on 911 he showed me that he had dropped the ball, and he's never tried to pick it up. He used 911 as an excuse to do lots of things, like pass a very-invasive Patriot Act and start a war with a country that wasn't a threat to us, but he did very little to actually further secure us, and for that matter to avenge the deaths and destruction of 911 - he gave the power-base (al-Qaeda translates to "the base" or "the foundation") behind the suicide-attackers two months to get away and hide, and almost all of them did.

This is a reprehensible act by a President sending troops to war. I just can't let it pas any longer. What do those of you that support Bush have to say to counter that?

I agree with you. He's made a lot of mistakes, he's done some things that were "bad" for the military, and a lot of things that are "bad" for the people (parts of the Patriot Act and other legislation that basically goes unmentioned in the press, the fact that the people aren't going to benefit financially from the war in Iraq yet are in more jeopardy from terrorism and are going to have to foot the bill of war costs for a long time to come). Of course every president has made mistakes and all that follow will, but you have to put a limit on how many mistakes are tolerable. Not every criticism of Bush is fair, not every criticism is accurate, but he has enough fair and accurate criticisms that I'm willing to vote for a Democrat for the first and probably only time in my life.

And if any of you doubt that I'm conservative, please feel free to check my past postings.


I stopped calling myself conservative (and Republican) 5 or 6 years ago. I'm not a conservative or a liberal; I'm not "in" either camp. Both sides have their rhetoric, I find the rhetoric of the right more appealing to me, due to my view of "how life ought to be" (I favor capitalism over socialism; I favor small government over big government; I favor low or no taxes or a choice on where my taxes go over high taxes; I favor buying what I can afford presently and not getting too deep in debt; I favor the principle of "doing for myself" instead of doing for others or having others do for me). And the Republican rhetoric - the party line - sounds just like all my views, but in practice never happens. I gave up on the Republicans, when I noticed that, since FDR the majority of Presidents have been Republican yet the size of the government, the percentage of taxes, the nation's debt have all risen monstrously. Every one of those Republican Presidents promised the party line, promised lower taxes, promised smaller government, promised to fix the debt, and so on, and none of them delivered. Not just one or two wasn't consistent with the rhetoric, but every single one of them, especially Bush.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
UNOCAL.... pipeline.... Taliban
These three words when added to "Bush" = manufactured BS - period.

"UNOCAL and Delta Oil played a major role in "buying" the local military leaders, not to mention lobbying Washington and coordinating with Pakistan. UNOCAL's American political adviser, Charles Santos, who was close to the Clinton administration, is now assistant to Mahmoud Mestiri, former UN special envoy for Afghanistan. UNOCAL's support for the Taliban is barely disguised by its vice president, Chris Taggart, who described the Taliban advance as a "positive development."
Special Report
Rivalries and Power Plays in Afghanistan: The Taliban, the Shari'a and the Pipeline
Olivier Roy
Middle East Report, No. 202, Cairo: Power, Poverty and Urban Survival. (Winter, 1996), pp. 37-40.
Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0899-2851%

"At the same time the stakes for Pakistan and Saudi Arabia had greatly increased. Not just the trade routes, but potentially lucrative oil and gas pipelines between the American company Unocal and the Saudi company Delta had concluded plans for multimillion-dollar oil and gas pipelines from Turkmenistan to Pakistani Baluchistan via Herat and Qandahar"
Women and Pipelines: Afghanistan's Proxy Wars
Barnett R. Rubin
International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1944-), Vol. 73, No. 2, Asia and the Pacific. (Apr., 1997), pp. 283-296.
Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0020-5850%


The above are from peer review journals. If you have access to JSTOR, then search "Afghanistan", "UNOCAL" and "pipeline", and then please read the results. All five entries are from 1996-1997. Incidentally, I cut down the links for page fit.

If after reading the above you still believe there is/was a conspiracy involving UNOCAL and President Bush while he was governor of Texas, then sadly, you are a damned fool.
 

happyhelper

Senior member
Feb 20, 2002
344
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Shuxclams
The connection between Bushes and Halliburton is what amazed me to be honest.


Its kinda sad that it was a surprise to you or anyone else.... its been in the media since day one.
But no one really paid attention until it was thrust in our faces on the big screen and all the dots connected (Taliban, Unocal, Hamid Karzai, gas pipeline, Halliburton, Cheney, Bush, Sauds, bin Ladens)

Well some of us connected all the dots 3 years ago, and a little more accurately and less speculatively, to boot... but no one would listen.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: happyhelper
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Shuxclams
The connection between Bushes and Halliburton is what amazed me to be honest.


Its kinda sad that it was a surprise to you or anyone else.... its been in the media since day one.
But no one really paid attention until it was thrust in our faces on the big screen and all the dots connected (Taliban, Unocal, Hamid Karzai, gas pipeline, Halliburton, Cheney, Bush, Sauds, bin Ladens)

Well some of us connected all the dots 3 years ago, and a little more accurately and less speculatively, to boot... but no one would listen.

Well, 3 years ago I was quite the Bush fan and wasn't paying attention to that aspect of him.
 

Regs

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
16,666
21
81
Bush just felt sorry for Iraq after we left them there to be slaughtered when they tried to rebel against Saddam. So he did what a good "Catholic" would do and try to free the people. I believe this because he mentioned to Sec. Colin Powel that he believed he was doing gods will by doing the right thing before they went to war. Sec. Colin Powel of course mentioned to him the planning of a end game. Which I guess Jr. ignored.

This is why Bush let all that false intelligence from the CIA get to his head. Bush wanted to go down in history by freeing a country in the middle east of a suppressive dictatorship. The only country we could make up lies about for congress to warrant such permission to go to war over it. He used WMD's as more of an excuse than a reason.


Now that they are freed, we expect them to adopt to our way of life and Democracy. This is ofcourse proven wrong over thousands of years of history. Remember when colonist went to war with Britain? Apparently they didn't like how Britain was running things.

I don't need a movie to tell me how sloppy this Administration ran war-time events. I couldn't care less what he did on vacation either. Since dumb economists likely told him to appear relaxed in office because it would of been good for the economy. If you were inspired by this movie to make a decision, then you were likely also inspired by your high school principle.
 

maXroOt

Member
Jun 25, 2003
59
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
hate Michael Moore. I want to make that clear. He distorts facts and/or outright lies in his movies (otherwise known as propaganda).

This should have been your first clue.

Support for Soldiers and Veterans

Deceits 50-52



Bush ?supported closing veterans hospitals? says Moore. The Bush Department of Veteran?s Affairs did propose closing seven hospitals in areas with declining populations where the hospitals were underutilized, and whose veterans could be served by other hospitals. Moore does not say that the Department also proposed building new hospitals in areas where needs were growing, and also building blind rehabilitation centers and spinal cord injury centers. (For more, see the Final Report of the independent commission on veterans hospitals, which agrees with some of the Bush proposals, and with some of the objections raised by critics.)



According to Moore, Bush ?tried to double the prescription drug costs for veterans.? What Bush proposed was raising the prescription co-pay from $7 to $15, for veterans with incomes of over $24,000 a year. Prescription costs would have remained very heavily subsidized by taxpayers. Some, not all, veterans would have faced a doubling of their prescription co-pay, but only to a level which is common for many people with prescription insurance, and hardly a large enough increase to make a great difference in most cases.



Bush, announces Moore, ?proposed cutting combat soldiers? pay by 33%.? Not exactly. In addition to regular military salaries, soldiers in certain areas (not just combat zones) receive an ?imminent danger? bonus of $150 a month. In April 2003, Congress retroactively enacted a special increase of $75, for the fiscal year of Oct. 1, 2002 through Sept. 30, 2003. At first, the Bush administration did not support renewing the special bonus, but then changed its position



Likewise, Congress had passed a special one-year increase in the family separation allowance (for service personnel stationed in places where their families cannot join them) from $100 to $250. Bush?s initial opposition to extending the special increase was presented by Moore as ?cutting assistance to their families by 60%.? (Edward Epstein, ?Pentagon reverses course, won?t cut troops? pay,? San Francisco Chronicle, Aug. 15, 2003.)



Even if one characterizes not renewing a special bonus as a ?cut,? Fahrenheit misleads the viewer into thinking that the cuts applied to total compensation, rather than only to pay supplements which constitute only a small percentage of a soldier?s income. An enlisted man with four months of experience receives an annual salary more than $27,000. (Rod Powers, ?What the Recruiter Never Told You: Military Pay.?)



Although Moore presents Bush as cutting military pay, Bush did the opposite: in 2003, Congress enacted a Bush administration proposal to raise all military salaries by 3.7%, with extra ?targeted? pay increases for non-commissioned officers. NCOs are lower-ranking officers who typically join the military with lower levels of education than commissioned officers. (Sgt. 1st Class Doug Sample, ?Defense Department Targets Military Pay Increases for 2004,? American Forces Press Service.)



(Deceits: 1. Closing veterans hospitals without mentioning of opening of veteran's hospitals, 2. Cutting combat soldiers pay as if it were a cut in total salary, 3. Omission of Bush pay increase for military. Prescription drugs not counted as deceit, although important context is missing.)



Here is a different take on it with a little more documentation than Moore can produce.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm





some of that doesnt sound right, but if someone could actually post up a response that would be cool









Originally posted by: irwincur


That is known as the Noam Chomsky method of finding the truth. If you have a lot of little truths, and you collect them all, you can make a bigger truth. Just don't let anyone know about what you left out, because it could bring down the entire house of cards.

your kidding, right? i dont know how you can compare chomsky to moore. chomsky is the one that changed our views about the media , deception, and linguistics. you have a very shallow read of chomsky if you think this.


About the writer of this thread. You probably should not be voting if you do not understand that the president neither writes or votes on laws. He does have veto power, but it would be ignorant to think that laws and bills only contain one topic. Many times there are literally thousands of topics and sub topics, in the end you need to pass or veto based on the relative merit of the ENITIRE law. In terms of budgeting, he has nearly no control (and I suspect this would be a budget issue), he can only suggest a budget, then the hacks in the Senate can butcher it.

as said before, this is BS. have you ever heard of something called political capital? yea yea its a very vague and dumb term that some people say doesnt exist, but of course the administration has a lot to do w/ what is passed. it all depends on the favors they pull, where they put there money, what kinda deals they make, etc etc i dont know how you could believe this
 

happyhelper

Senior member
Feb 20, 2002
344
0
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
UNOCAL.... pipeline.... Taliban
These three words when added to "Bush" = manufactured BS - period.

"UNOCAL and Delta Oil played a major role in "buying" the local military leaders, not to mention lobbying Washington and coordinating with Pakistan. UNOCAL's American political adviser, Charles Santos, who was close to the Clinton administration, is now assistant to Mahmoud Mestiri, former UN special envoy for Afghanistan. UNOCAL's support for the Taliban is barely disguised by its vice president, Chris Taggart, who described the Taliban advance as a "positive development."
Special Report
Rivalries and Power Plays in Afghanistan: The Taliban, the Shari'a and the Pipeline
Olivier Roy
Middle East Report, No. 202, Cairo: Power, Poverty and Urban Survival. (Winter, 1996), pp. 37-40.
Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0899-2851%

"At the same time the stakes for Pakistan and Saudi Arabia had greatly increased. Not just the trade routes, but potentially lucrative oil and gas pipelines between the American company Unocal and the Saudi company Delta had concluded plans for multimillion-dollar oil and gas pipelines from Turkmenistan to Pakistani Baluchistan via Herat and Qandahar"
Women and Pipelines: Afghanistan's Proxy Wars
Barnett R. Rubin
International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1944-), Vol. 73, No. 2, Asia and the Pacific. (Apr., 1997), pp. 283-296.
Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0020-5850%


The above are from peer review journals. If you have access to JSTOR, then search "Afghanistan", "UNOCAL" and "pipeline", and then please read the results. All five entries are from 1996-1997. Incidentally, I cut down the links for page fit.

If after reading the above you still believe there is/was a conspiracy involving UNOCAL and President Bush while he was governor of Texas, then sadly, you are a damned fool.

I don't seem to have access to JSTOR. How do these discount the "Taliban's trip" to Texas in any way whatsoever? How are these excerpts even related to Governor Bush or the Taliban? All this shows is a UNOCAL VP stating that (assumption: pipeline negotiations with the Taliban or overall fruition of UNOCAL's Afghan pipeline dream) had some "positive development" (whenever he happened to say that in the mid 90s, probably either after the Taliban secured Kandahar in November 94 or Kabul in September 96 (when UNOCAL was criticized for showing support to the Taliban).).

If there is anything at JStor that is actually relevant to Governor Bush or is relevant to the Taliban's dealings with UNOCAL and it's neighbors and/or other oil contractors from the end of the Afghan War with the Soviet Union til the Afghanistan War with the US (or even on the Afghan pipeline after 2001), that might be of interest.

If you have any details about the Taliban's trip to Texas to meet with UNOCAL brass in November 1997 (which occured after the dates of the articles you mention) that would be interesting reading, too. However, Michael Moore never said that George Bush met with the Taliban or that there was any type of conspiracy... if you saw the movie, you must have leapt to that conclusion yourself, and if you didn't see the movie, then you've allowed right-wing propagandists to misinform you about what Michael Moore actually said.

Moore (from Fahrenheit 9/11):
Or was the war in Afghanistan really about something else? Perhaps the answer was in Houston, Texas[Perhaps, just like he said]. In [November] 1997 (while George W. Bush was Governor of Texas[FACT]), a delegation of the Taliban leaders from Afghanistan flew to Houston to meet with UNOCAL executives to discuss the building of a pipeline though Afghanistan bringing natural gas from the Caspian Sea[FACT]. And who got a Caspian Sea drilling contract the same day UNOCAL signed the pipeline deal? A company headed by a man named Dick Cheney: Haliburton.[FACT]

My distinguished friend, Houston is not merely the city Governor Bush ruled the state of Texas from, but it is also the global (and national) center of "Big Oil." Perhaps the "answer" behind both the Iraq War, the Afghanistan War and also nearly every US policy regarding the Middle-East can be found in Houston, Texas. That's how "American capitalism" (i.e., crony corporatism) functions. If you don't think so, then you're the damned fool.

The problem with Michael Moore is that he asks a question, and the person being questioned is expected to think about the answer to the question. Thus, the problem is not Michael Moore, it is people who are incapable of answering a question, who are even incapable of understanding the question as it was asked. He did not ask "is the real answer to what the war in Afghanistan was about some conspiracy in the Oval Office?" He asked, essentially, "Is the real answer about the war in Afghanistan in Houston, Texas?" The answer to the question he asked, if one is able to think about it in the context of how American politics work (interest groups, pull, networking, campaign contributions), what Houston Texas represents (again, Big Oil) and what has transpired in Afghanistan (it is 1000% more secure and stable than it has been in 25 years and is now, finally, conducive to long-term business investments) is "yes probably... it is highly probable that the war in Afghanistan was carried out to benefit Big Oil based in Houston, Texas, not for the given reasons of 'quashing the evil-doers' and the fact that few, if any, 'evil-doers' were quashed makes this even more probable."


Why do you think the United States cared 20 years ago if Russia took over the "anus of the world"?

As of 1992, 11 western oil companies controlled more than 50% of all oil investments in the Caspian Basin. Wake up, my distinguished friend.
 

happyhelper

Senior member
Feb 20, 2002
344
0
0
Originally posted by: Ilmater
Originally posted by: irwincur
About the writer of this thread. You probably should not be voting if you do not understand that the president neither writes or votes on laws. He does have veto power, but it would be ignorant to think that laws and bills only contain one topic. Many times there are literally thousands of topics and sub topics, in the end you need to pass or veto based on the relative merit of the ENITIRE law. In terms of budgeting, he has nearly no control (and I suspect this would be a budget issue), he can only suggest a budget, then the hacks in the Senate can butcher it.
So, I am ignorant because:

A) According to you, the President doesn't write or vote on laws.
B) Many bills contain small addendums that are either unrelated to, or completely separate from the rest of the bill.

My retort to those assertions:

A) You're ignorant if you think the President's administration doesn't have a lot to do with what bills get passed/proposed in Congress. He has a TON of say in what goes on in his party. He can move things like party endorsements, campaign donations, verbal support, etc. that influence what gets passed. I know he doesn't MAKE the bills, but he has a lot to do with what his party endorses. Plus, more importantly (and logically), his policy follows party policy very closely. So, if there is widespread Republican support for something in Congress, it's probably something the President would agree with as well. It works both ways.

B) So, if I understand you correctly, I can't hold anyone responsible for anything he or she votes on because they were "probably" voting for someone else. Hmmm, that just doesn't sound like a good way to conduct my role as a voter, does it? "Should I vote for him? Well, he did vote to shoot everyone older than 60. Oh well, that was probably just an addendum to a 'Save the Life of Children' bill. Yeah, I'll vote for him."

I also want to be clear about something else (I'll edit my post above in this respect as well). I specifically mention this because I had heard this particular argument about a dozen other times (mostly on these here forums), and I never heard it rebutted by the conservative crowd. I really just wanted to see what the response would be.

So you've never heard of pork-barreling?

I learned about that in 8th and 9th grade social studies classes. I think maybe you should return to junior high before you vote anymore. If unwilling to do that (but I suggest you do, since you probably missed a lot of other useful information) you could try to educate yourself using google.
 

happyhelper

Senior member
Feb 20, 2002
344
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: happyhelper
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Shuxclams
The connection between Bushes and Halliburton is what amazed me to be honest.


Its kinda sad that it was a surprise to you or anyone else.... its been in the media since day one.
But no one really paid attention until it was thrust in our faces on the big screen and all the dots connected (Taliban, Unocal, Hamid Karzai, gas pipeline, Halliburton, Cheney, Bush, Sauds, bin Ladens)

Well some of us connected all the dots 3 years ago, and a little more accurately and less speculatively, to boot... but no one would listen.

Well, 3 years ago I was quite the Bush fan and wasn't paying attention to that aspect of him.

Well, then, I am glad Michael Moore made the film, never too late to learn (I hope, lol).

EDIT: And I am glad you, for one, took control of your own ideology (as in your sig). Sheep, whatever their ideology, are scary and dangerous, especially with the wrong shepard.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Corn
I am a conservative (mostly) who saw this film and will still vote for Bush. I wonder if I should start my own thread making this proclaimation.

Why would you want to draw attention to yourself like that? As stated before, any Bush supporter who walks out a Bush supporter after seeing the movie can not be swayed by ANYTHING. Congrats on having a closed mind.
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
1
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Corn
I am a conservative (mostly) who saw this film and will still vote for Bush. I wonder if I should start my own thread making this proclaimation.

Why would you want to draw attention to yourself like that? As stated before, any Bush supporter who walks out a Bush supporter after seeing the movie can not be swayed by ANYTHING. Congrats on having a closed mind.

Ha. Anybody who is "swayed" after watching this propoganda piece could be swayed by a bubble gum wrapper.


It's actually funny that you mentioned closed minds. Seems to me you'd need to consider M&amp;M's interpretations (all of which have been countered) to be absolute law and close off your mind to other possibilities to think anybody who doesn't get brainwashed by his film is close minded.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Corn
I am a conservative (mostly) who saw this film and will still vote for Bush. I wonder if I should start my own thread making this proclaimation.

Why would you want to draw attention to yourself like that? As stated before, any Bush supporter who walks out a Bush supporter after seeing the movie can not be swayed by ANYTHING. Congrats on having a closed mind.

Ha. Anybody who is "swayed" after watching this propoganda piece could be swayed by a bubble gum wrapper.


It's actually funny that you mentioned closed minds. Seems to me you'd need to consider M&amp;M's interpretations (all of which have been countered) to be absolute law and close off your mind to other possibilities to think anybody who doesn't get brainwashed by his film is close minded.
In most cases Moore is just preaching to the Chior. He won't make much of a differance this election..unlike the Dub's piss poor performance
 

Shuxclams

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,286
15
81
Originally posted by: Corn
I am a conservative (mostly) who saw this film and will still vote for Bush. I wonder if I should start my own thread making this proclaimation.



Corn, Bush could proclaim to be the devil himself and you'd still vote for him...... Heck I think FoxNews could even make that passable in those little NeoCon brains...












SHUX
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
Originally posted by: NightCrawler
The whole movie sucked....Moore is just waaaaay to bias to believe anything he says.

That's the thing though. All of the major news networks (but especially FOX) are showing a very pro Bush pro USA stance on everything. The movie goes way to the other side, but it provides a balance.

Between the two sides you are prompted to think and this is a good thing.
 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
1
0
Originally posted by: happyhelper
Originally posted by: Ilmater
Originally posted by: irwincur
About the writer of this thread. You probably should not be voting if you do not understand that the president neither writes or votes on laws. He does have veto power, but it would be ignorant to think that laws and bills only contain one topic. Many times there are literally thousands of topics and sub topics, in the end you need to pass or veto based on the relative merit of the ENITIRE law. In terms of budgeting, he has nearly no control (and I suspect this would be a budget issue), he can only suggest a budget, then the hacks in the Senate can butcher it.
So, I am ignorant because:

A) According to you, the President doesn't write or vote on laws.
B) Many bills contain small addendums that are either unrelated to, or completely separate from the rest of the bill.

My retort to those assertions:

A) You're ignorant if you think the President's administration doesn't have a lot to do with what bills get passed/proposed in Congress. He has a TON of say in what goes on in his party. He can move things like party endorsements, campaign donations, verbal support, etc. that influence what gets passed. I know he doesn't MAKE the bills, but he has a lot to do with what his party endorses. Plus, more importantly (and logically), his policy follows party policy very closely. So, if there is widespread Republican support for something in Congress, it's probably something the President would agree with as well. It works both ways.

B) So, if I understand you correctly, I can't hold anyone responsible for anything he or she votes on because they were "probably" voting for someone else. Hmmm, that just doesn't sound like a good way to conduct my role as a voter, does it? "Should I vote for him? Well, he did vote to shoot everyone older than 60. Oh well, that was probably just an addendum to a 'Save the Life of Children' bill. Yeah, I'll vote for him."

I also want to be clear about something else (I'll edit my post above in this respect as well). I specifically mention this because I had heard this particular argument about a dozen other times (mostly on these here forums), and I never heard it rebutted by the conservative crowd. I really just wanted to see what the response would be.

So you've never heard of pork-barreling?

I learned about that in 8th and 9th grade social studies classes. I think maybe you should return to junior high before you vote anymore. If unwilling to do that (but I suggest you do, since you probably missed a lot of other useful information) you could try to educate yourself using google.
I have no idea how pork-barreling applies to this argument, but regardless, why don't you just piss off. Who the fvck are you anyway? Troll? I think so.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: happyhelper

My distinguished friend, Houston is not merely the city Governor Bush ruled the state of Texas from
Austin.

Or was the war in Afghanistan really about something else? Perhaps the answer was in Houston, Texas[Perhaps, just like he said]. In [November] 1997 (while George W. Bush was Governor of Texas[FACT]), a delegation of the Taliban leaders from Afghanistan flew to Houston to meet with UNOCAL executives to discuss the building of a pipeline though Afghanistan bringing natural gas from the Caspian Sea[FACT]. And who got a Caspian Sea drilling contract the same day UNOCAL signed the pipeline deal? A company headed by a man named Dick Cheney: Haliburton.[FACT]
Circumstantial. Nothing is proven. In fact, UNOCAL held discussions on the pipeline project at least one year before the November, 1997 meeting.

[...]

Why do you think the United States cared 20 years ago if Russia took over the "anus of the world"?
Actually 5 years before then. Robert Gates (former CIA director and now TAMU President) wrote in his book that CIA operatives were in Afghanistan at least 6 months prior to the '79 Soviet invasion. Zbigniew Brzezinski confirmed also this in follow-up interviews with LeMond and CNN.

As of 1992, 11 western oil companies controlled more than 50% of all oil investments in the Caspian Basin. Wake up, my distinguished friend.
Ah yes, the old "War for Oil" argument. Nevermind that purchasing oil on the open market is actually cheaper than waging war. Where was all of this Caspian Sea investment in 1979?
 

happyhelper

Senior member
Feb 20, 2002
344
0
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: happyhelper

My distinguished friend, Houston is not merely the city Governor Bush ruled the state of Texas from
Austin.

HA! I was wondering the other day if I still remembered all the states' capitals. Guess not. How embarrassing that I discovered the answer in public discourse.

Or was the war in Afghanistan really about something else? Perhaps the answer was in Houston, Texas[Perhaps, just like he said]. In [November] 1997 (while George W. Bush was Governor of Texas[FACT]), a delegation of the Taliban leaders from Afghanistan flew to Houston to meet with UNOCAL executives to discuss the building of a pipeline though Afghanistan bringing natural gas from the Caspian Sea[FACT]. And who got a Caspian Sea drilling contract the same day UNOCAL signed the pipeline deal? A company headed by a man named Dick Cheney: Haliburton.[FACT]
Circumstantial. Nothing is proven. In fact, UNOCAL held discussions on the pipeline project at least one year before the November, 1997 meeting.

Circumstantial? Wow! Amazing observation! Fact nonetheless. Nothing is proven? Wow, don't be so defensive! If Mr. Cheney were to act so defensive about something so circumstantial, he would appear guilty. You, OTOH, don't have any way of knowing if he is guilty or not (safe assumption?) yet are very, very defensive about it! No accusation was made. So, why so defensive, unless you know the guys you defend are liars, and could be lying about more?

In addition to what you said, Haliburton already had drilling contracts all over the Middle-East and I would have to guess in the Caspian sea region considering that US firms owned over 50% of the oil resources in the Caspian basin 5 years prior - I'm sure Haliburton would have gotten in on that action by then, at least a contract or two. Also, the Taliban had sent envoys to DC earlier in the year (97) regarding certain matters, including the pipeline.

Did you ever notice that the Caspian Sea was surrounded by two nations in 1990 (and for a long time prior)? USSR and Iran. In 1991, as we all know, The Soviet lost it's hold, and by 1992, US companies owned half the oil resources in the Caspian basin, as I noted in my previous post (and above). How come the US (companies) didn't own all the oil resources, they must have been dirt cheap after the USSR fell? Are the other half of the Caspian Basin's oil resources in Iran or something? And hasn't the US had a hard-on for Iran, too, since... well... since ancient times? (Notice that those questions "lead the witness" like Michael Moore tends to do... that's not a crime though, every good lawyer does it as much as he can get away with - it's not deception; and I didn't put a false answer in your mouth and neither did Moore. The news media and the politicians do the exact same things every single day, Rush Limbaugh does it every single day, people fall for it everyday and no one pays any attention or makes an objection, but a liberal film-maker does it and it causes an outrage).

Instead of blasting Michael Moore for placing interesting circumstances together (Free country, freedom of speech, it's even legal for the news to lie to you, so why get so mad if you mistakenly perceive Michael Moore as lying; you have the right not to go see his movie, of course), why not blame non-critical thinkers who jump to conclusions from being told interesting yet possibly, but not necessarily, unrelated circumstances?

It appears to me that people who like Bush don't like Michael Moore because instead of convincing people of what he wants them to believe with force, fear and bullying like Bush, Moore just uses his mind. Instead of trying to suppress free-thought as Bush does, he tries to ask questions which incite people to think critically. Despite all the negative press and bashing Moore is being inflicted with, here are you and I discussing something we probably never would have discussed otherwise. Thanks, Michael Moore.

[...]

Why do you think the United States cared 20 years ago if Russia took over the "anus of the world"?
Actually 5 years before then. Robert Gates (former CIA director and now TAMU President) wrote in his book that CIA operatives were in Afghanistan at least 6 months prior to the '79 Soviet invasion. Zbigniew Brzezinski confirmed also this in follow-up interviews with LeMond and CNN. {
Strawman, the question was why, not when. Regardless, I apologize for not being specific enough to your liking.

As of 1992, 11 western oil companies controlled more than 50% of all oil investments in the Caspian Basin. Wake up, my distinguished friend.
Ah yes, the old "War for Oil" argument. Nevermind that purchasing oil on the open market is actually cheaper than waging war. Where was all of this Caspian Sea investment in 1979?[/quote]

Aw yes, the old "this is NOT a war for oil" argument (belief, not even an argument) which is the typical ignorant response of those who've been conditioned not to believe in oil wars.

Um, I don't mean to be rude, but your math is terribly faulty....

FREE OIL versus oil purchased on open market, which is cheaper???? Let me make this clear, in case there is any doubt... FREE OIL IS CHEAPER THAN MARKET PRICED OIL (unless someone is crazy enough to give you money to take their oil, which doesn't happen on this planet, and that would certainly be considered well-below market price).

Waging war might be expensive, but Houston, Texas doesn't pay for it, the people all over America, like you and me, are the ones who pay for that, and even the tax-payers of other countries that joined our coalition help to pay for it, but Houston, Texas doesn't pay for it. That is to say, Houston, Texas (recall from my previous post that "Houston, Texas" is synonymous with "Big Oil") isn't paying the "investment cost" of waging war on (conquering) the target country.

If there is a goldmine in Canada, and I can convince a bunch of 18 year olds (who are paid and furnished with weapons by tax-payers, not me) to go over and kill (or merely imprison) enough Canadians that the Canadians give HappyHelpers, Inc rights to mine the Gold, then I saved myself a lot of money by not buying gold on the open market to resell on the open market. It's just one of those neat little tricks the crony capitalists of America discovered a couple hundred years ago, and you know what it does, it saves so-called capitalists from expending alot of capital, especially if you add it all up over 200+ years. Pretty cool, huh?



Also, to further argue your point that it is cheaper to buy the oil than to wage war, I'll use normal mathematics instead of the above realistic illustration:
Exports:
$7.542 billion f.o.b. (2003 est.)
Exports - commodities:
crude oil
Exports - partners:
US 37.4%, Taiwan 7.7%, Canada 7.5%, France 7.5%, Jordan 6.9%, Netherlands 5.8%, Italy 4.9%, Morocco 4.3%, Spain 4.1% (2002)
Do you trust this source? ;-)

Iraq exported $7.5 billion dollars worth of oil during a year in which 25% of the time it was under outrageous sanctions, a couple months it was at war and the remainder of the year it was rebuilding and sustaining sporadic debilitating attacks on it's oil infrastructure. By November, Iraq's oil output was just at or higher than it had been prior to the war. This means that Iraq's oil output of $7.5billion dollars was very low compared to what it could be. Estimates are that once everything is working right, Iraq's oil annual exports will be valued at $20-30billion depending on price per barrel (which will always rise and will eventually rise very rapidly). Considering that the cost of waging war will ultimately lie somewhere between 200billion and 600billion, and that there is at today's price over $3trillion under the ground.... hmmm... US dictating oil prices to a world that thirsts for oil more than it does for water, instead of (or as a member (via the puppet government of Iraq) of) OPEC.

I believe, sir, that I have successfully demonstrated that "it's not a war for oil" based on the argument that it is "cheaper to buy it than take it over" is clearly wrong, whether you look at international politics naively (the latter argument) or objectively (the former argument).

And now you can say "we were talking about Afghanistan." So here is why a pipeline from the Caspian Basin is desirable and valuable in Afghanistan and why the excessively disagreeable Taliban was removed:
Half of China's oil consumption will depend on imports within four years
( 2003-12-11 22:36) (Xinhua)
China will see an increasing dependency on crude oil imports, with the amount of crude oil imported rising from 31 percent in 2002 to 50 percent four years later in 2007, according to official research released in Beijing Thursday.
Research by China's Ministry of Communications on marine oil transportation predicted that the country would import 100 million tons of crude oil in 2005, 150 million tons in 2010 and in 2020 the number would soar to 250 to 300 million.
link from the land of 1.8 billion slaves

Interesting that by 2010, China will "need" the same amount of oil that Iraq is assumed to be able to output and even more than that, soon after. Also, according to that trustworthy source above, N Korea is deplete of oil (and can't really afford to buy any, but we'll turn them into "good little consumers" yet, just a matter of time) and S Korea already imports (probably a lot of it for our boys over there) as much as Iraq is assumed to be able to output, and of course Japan uses even more than that.

Not only is there a lot of wealth to be extricated from the oil itself, but there is the added benefit of being able to exert some control over countries like China, Russia, Vietnam, India and Everyone Else by controlling the price and flow of oil, which might explain why Everyone Else in the world hates us so much for the dastardly deed of dethroning an evil dictator on false premises. But I digress... pipelines are much more efficient and cheap for transporting oil than boats or trains, and pipelines are best built in a straight line (to the Arabian Sea/Indian Ocean) as much as possible... and they work better in countries where the ruler wants them there. Between the choice of Iran or Afghanistan, Afghanistan looked pretty damn easy to take, and it was, so I think that explains Afghanistan. And Iran will likely acquiesce without war eventually, due to everything going on around them.

Don't Mess With Texas
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: happyhelper

Don't Mess With Texas

Page 111, 9/11 report

?In Afghanistan, the State Department tried to end the civil war that had continued since the Soviets? withdrawal. The South Asia bureau believed it might have a carrot for Afghanistan?s warring factions in a project by the Union Oil Company of California (UNOCAL) to build a pipeline across the country. While there was probably never much chance of the pipeline actually being built, the Afghan desk hoped that the prospect of shared pipeline profits might lure faction leaders to a conference table. U.S. diplomats did not favor the Taliban over the rival factions. Despite growing concerns, U.S. diplomats were willing at the time, as one official said, to ?give the Taliban a chance.??
The pipeline was a Clinton-era diplomatic initiative. Another one of your stupid-assed little theories (and totally bullcrap diatribes) shot to hell.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: conjur
But who was involved? Unocal and the Taliban.
Cultivated and encouraged by the Clinton State Department as well.
Oh?

The Clinton State Deparment omitted Afghanistan from its foreign policy priority list while the Bush administration restored that. In 1998, Clinton broke diplomatic ties with the Taliban after sending cruise missiles into Afghanistan in retaliation for the African embassy attacks.

When the Taliban were brought to the State Department before that, though, they still found a cool reception by the Clinton administration. Unocal was under fire by various women's groups due to the pressure applied from R.A.W.A. Clinton never did recognize the Taliban as a legitimate government.
 

LilBlinbBlahIce

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2001
1,837
0
0
I just saw the movie yesterday and I must say, it was brilliant. Really well made and whether you agree with Moore or not, there is a lot in that movie that cannot be disputed. I loved the part when he tries to get congressmen to sign their kids up for the war. Great.