I think this one was torn apart in a couple of earlier anti-hybrid threads. This link doesn't give the calculations just results, but its sources made far too pessimistic assumptions of the battery life.
Just as I hope not being in a crash in any car. Here is something I found on an Insight forum a month or so ago. He got rear ended by a guy driving a Lexus (drunk) and doing about 110 mph, the guy in the Insight was doing 55. The story speaks for itself. Btw, he was able to walk away from the accident, dazed, but no serious injuries.
Now I will be the first to admit that the Insight is far from usual, it has an aluminum frame and body. The engine is a 3 cyl / 1 liter, and is rated at 75ish hp + electric assist, weighs about 1800lbs, and they are no longer made as of 2006. But it is proof of concept of what can be done for efficiency and safety.
~Paste
Yeah, well, the guy hit me so hard I did not know what was happening since he was driving a big Lexus and traveling at twice my speed, it was a big inelastic collision in a way. My car was featherlight compared to his. As soon as he touched my car, everything electric in my car shutoff tight away and for that reason I freaked out since I taught maybe my batteries exploded for no reason. I remember hearing the noise of my tires since I was 1/2 airborne and occasionally touching the ground at the same time while spinning. Once the car stopped I sort of woke up from being out of it for a few secs and I realized I might have been in an accident. Anyways, I did not know what had happened until I was in the ambulance. The guy that hit me was also driving on a suspended license and no insurance. Now, I am trying to get a gr8 deal on another 5 speed insight with low miles. I am going to keep looking to find a cheap one 5-7k since I lose a lot in that accident, including my car.
Pic 1
Pic 2
Fair enough, but if you can show me links that show calculations that give a different result, I'll be very interested.
Here is the updated version of the report in it's full version. It's been updated recently
http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/ I didn't really go though it to look for calcuations. The results seem about the same. It does explain why they chose the basis they did though.
A cursory look didn't show me where they took into account battery life at all, but I'm sure they would have had to. (the study is 450 pages long.) The information they used on the prius is interesting. It's not that it won't cost less if driven more, it's the fact that they aren't driven very much by their owners. (They base the lifespan of the Prius as 100,000 miles or 15 years and explain why.) This would seem to mean that the energy cost from dust to dust would decrease if they were driven a lot more then they are. Unfortunatly, the study is based on observed facts not speculation.
Another interesting part is the description of the facility in Cananda that makes batteries for these cars and the enviromental damage it's caused. Keep in mind that hybrids use many more batteries than conventional cars.
It still comes down to the fact that just because one car gets better mileage than another doesn't automatically mean it's a better choice for the enviroment.
Thanks for your personal insight in this thread Mark against the fraud and deception of the Oil /Big Car supporter/paid staffers. :thumbsup:
Pliablemoose
Lifer
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I love the Insight, and have driven several of them. Unfortunately the Insight does not meet my needs in an automobile, and crash test ratings aside, they all felt like I was driving a go cart. This is coming from a current Miata & former CRX SI owner.
Seems most of the US public felt the same way Sales figures
Seems most of the US public felt the same way Sales figures
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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The article is flawed. PZEV tech is not that clean.
Was the Space Shuttle up at the same time, Dave? :roll:
First, it wasn't "early 80's," it was late 80s to early 90s.
Second, they got 40 mpg, except the Geo Metro, a re-badged Suzuki Swift brought to the US and sold by GM (so explain that as a "foreign car").
Third, I owned one of those cars, a Honda CRX. I eventually sold it for something that actually climb a hill at freeway speeds.
Fourth, those manufacturers went upmarket. As evolving technology allowed them to squeeze better gas mileage out of their bigger, more profitable models, they no longer needed to dump low-margin economy cars on the market in order to average out their CAFE ratings. Arguably, CAFE standards should have been increased, but that's hardly the same as being "told to bring down the mpg or no longer sell in the U.S," now is it, conspira-troll?
Hybrids are fine, but for the millionth time, they are still an ICE. Please quit pretending like there's a magical engine that runs on fairy dust under the hood of your Prius instead of a gasoline ICE.
Was the Space Shuttle up at the same time, Dave? :roll:
First, it wasn't "early 80's," it was late 80s to early 90s.
Second, they got 40 mpg, except the Geo Metro, a re-badged Suzuki Swift brought to the US and sold by GM (so explain that as a "foreign car").
Third, I owned one of those cars, a Honda CRX. I eventually sold it for something that actually climb a hill at freeway speeds.
Fourth, those manufacturers went upmarket. As evolving technology allowed them to squeeze better gas mileage out of their bigger, more profitable models, they no longer needed to dump low-margin economy cars on the market in order to average out their CAFE ratings. Arguably, CAFE standards should have been increased, but that's hardly the same as being "told to bring down the mpg or no longer sell in the U.S," now is it, conspira-troll?
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Well yeah, that's the thing. A lot of people go a little overboard in their praise of hybrids.
For one thing, 50 mpg is possible from any modern car that only outputs 75 hp and weighs 1800 lbs. My old CRX could get 50 mpg at times and it had 90 hp, a bit more space, weighed around 2220 lbs., and didn't look as dorky as the Insight.
The other thing is that the public just doesn't like these cars. It's not a conspiracy, it's clear as day. The manufacturers don't want to be under mandate to build cars that the public won't buy in the numbers that the manufacturers needs in order to keep operating (and paying union wages and pensions, I might add).
Off topic, but sales figures mean nothing on the Insight, they were limited production. Every one shipped to the US was sold and there were still waiting lists. That is why I jumped on the one I bought. The mom and pop dealer had no idea what they had. They could have ebayed it for almost 50% more than I payed as they are very popular in CA
You are mostly right (IMHO). Most people (Americans) don't want economy and will drive gas guzzlers that get them to the next light 5 secs than the economy car behind them. But that can't go on forever, oil will eventually run out and gas will become unaffordable. However, I am happy with my economy (hybrid) that only seats two (myself and my son), does 0-60 in under 10 secs if I want it to, while getting a 70mpg average. And the "go-cart" feel is actually fun
Plus, how many cars can you 'overclock'
#47 on the user page ......How is it Off topic? The purveyors of fraud and deception brought it up.
Facts on these posters will never work but thanks for trying. :thumbsup:
In Europe there's a new trend of natural gas powered cars, such as this Daimler Mercedes
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/m...e-200-ngt-ar29353.html
Not only CO2 emissions are very low, but the car is 50% more cost effective to operate due to the low cost of natural gas. And we are not talking about a small car here.
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/m...e-200-ngt-ar29353.html
Not only CO2 emissions are very low, but the car is 50% more cost effective to operate due to the low cost of natural gas. And we are not talking about a small car here.
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
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Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
You are mostly right (IMHO). Most people (Americans) don't want economy and will drive gas guzzlers that get them to the next light 5 secs than the economy car behind them. But that can't go on forever, oil will eventually run out and gas will become unaffordable. However, I am happy with my economy (hybrid) that only seats two (myself and my son), does 0-60 in under 10 secs if I want it to, while getting a 70mpg average. And the "go-cart" feel is actually fun
Plus, how many cars can you 'overclock'
I just didn't feel particularly safe in the ones I drove, and have elected to own smaller cars with a bit more power to get out of the way of larger faster moving cars. The Miata & the CRX were/are 2 of the smaller cars on US roads, and they combine fuel efficiency with that whole fun to drive thing
If someone made an electric car for a reasonable price I'd buy one as my current commute would be perfect for one.
Is there a huge price difference in the cost of natural gas in Europe Vs the U.S.?
Natural gas is rediculous here, certainly not an energy alternative.
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
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That has actually been around since the 70's. My grandpa has a propane conversion done to his 1973 GMC pickup in the late 70's, and it still runs to this day on either gasoline, or LP. His mpg is lower than with gas, but LP was cheaper at the time. There are also fleet vehicles as well as some private owners that run natural gas in the US.
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
- 25,195
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If I build the next home as I'm planning, I'm going to plumb it for a natural gas line to the garage & keep an eye out for a CNG car.
Heh, am I the only person who thinks it's ironic that a post mocking liberal environmentalists types is also complaining about the lack of availability of an engine that is only available in states famous for hosting liberal environmentalist types?
Also, you're not really making the argument you think you are making. Cleaner emissions does not mean the same thing as higher fuel economy.
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
- 25,195
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There is no "natural gas" lines here where I live.
Beside Natural Gas is expensive and has constant price spikes making it altogether prohibitive for anyone on a budget.
For you and you're rich folk friends it doesn't matter of course.
I don't know Dave, I live in NYC so I don't have a car in the US and plan not to buy another one ever, so I don't know how much natural gas is in the US nor if it is readily available.
I know that in Italy, Germany, France and Spain (the countries in Europe I am familiar with and where I do drive when I live in Europe) there are two kinds of natural gas available at gas stations: LPG and Methane. Methane is extremely cheap, but you need a quite complex system on the vehicle and once you convert it you can only use methane. LPG cars can instead also run on normal gasoline, so they are now more common.
In France and Italy for example GLP is 0.63 euros/liter where gasoline is 1.29 and diesel is 1.18. Methane is 0.78/kilogram... which means ridiculously cheap.
Keep in mind gasoline is extremely expensive in Europe, that's why alternatives are very interesting for people there. My perspective as an European who lives in the US is that (don't insult me) you need more taxes on energy. While people complain about gas prices, they are still pretty low, so that people don't really do anything apart from complaining.
If it will become more expensive not only people will start to seriously look for alternatives, but entrepreneurs will start to look into ways to respond to these new market demands.
Same thing for household energy. Spain and Germany get an insane amount of energy from wind. This is possible because energy is expensive, so energy companies have an incentive to find alternative (clean and renewable) sources, because they know they can afford the investments considering the prices of energy support it. In Italy solar panels in the houses are subsidized by the government, and the energy companies buy from you the excess energy you produce and don't use. In Germany the government locks a minimum price at which it buys your wind-generated energy for 30 years, so to minimize risks for entrepreneurs willing to enter the sector. Interestingly a lot of the companies building wind farms in Germany are American, so they could easily do the same here. They choose Germany for the economic incentives provided by the government. The guys building these wind farm usually securitize the revenues streams into CDOs just like they do with mortgage-backed securities, so having zero-risk for them is incredibly attractive.
I have seen projections made by a private equity fund operating in the wind energy sector about how much energy could be obtained in the US by wind and tide turbines, and it's a huge amount. Some parts of this country are just perfect for that. The only problem is the economics of it. For many energy companies gasoline and fossil fuels are not only very lucrative but also run on very old, already amortized investments. There is little need (and little demand) for alternative paths.
Well, it's just that I hate cars. In the last 15 years I have always been living in big cities, where there is 24/7 public transport. So I really see no reason for having a car. It's just a pain in the ass.
I used to drive in Europe when I went and visit my family who doesn't live in a big city. That's why I know the prices of gas and LNG in Europe. But even there, I now try to use trains as much as I can. Europe is not that big and you can travel Paris to Milan (my most frequent Euro trip) in one afternoon with the TGV. You sit and read a book, and no risk of car accidents.
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