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Saudi Arabia immune in 9/11 case

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Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Last time I checked, the 9/11 plot was hatched in Germany. The hatred for Saudi Arabia is so unbalanced compared to the German situation. Germany's archaic and oppressive acts created these monsters.

😕

please tell me that my meter simply failed with this one...

Many of them became radicalized in Germany. Germany's oppression of minorities, the constant belittling, Nazi-like policies, etc. probably had a factor in their radicalization.

Saudi Arabia can be an easy target for criticism, but Germany's role is much more prominent. 9/11 is just another reason why Americans should take a closer look into our relationships with Europe.
umm.. wow. I don't even know where to start with you... I highly suggest that you study up on the buildup to 9/11. The recruitments in Germany could have taken place in nearly any country in the world, including the U.S. itself.

Extremism is exported all over the world in the form of Wahabi/Salafist Imams, literature, and video tapes -- which originate mostly from Saudi Arabia and Egypt respectively. Their beliefs are particularly inviting to those who already have family involved in AQ, or those who are simply desperate for friendship. The recruitment process in Germany had more to do with fraternal bonding and testosterone than any policies or practices of Germany itself.

Here's A Good Place to Start Sageman is not 100% correct in all of his empirical theories, but his understanding of the Hamburg Cell is right on the money. Go back to school fool...
 
Originally posted by: palehorse

umm.. wow. I don't even know where to start with you... I highly suggest that you study up on the buildup to 9/11. The recruitments in Germany could have taken place in nearly any country in the world, including the U.S. itself.

It doesn't matter that it could take place anywhere in the world. It took place in Germany. That's where people should be seeking their revenge for 9/11, not Saudi Arabia.

Extremism is exported all over the world in the form of Wahabi/Salafist Imams, literature, and video tapes -- which originate mostly from Saudi Arabia and Egypt respectively. Their beliefs are particularly inviting to those who already have family involved in AQ, or those who are simply desperate for friendship. The recruitment process in Germany had more to do with fraternal bonding and testosterone than any policies or practices of Germany itself.

You admit that the condition of the social situation in Germany is an issue yet then you claim that the policies and practices in Germany are not?
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: palehorse

umm.. wow. I don't even know where to start with you... I highly suggest that you study up on the buildup to 9/11. The recruitments in Germany could have taken place in nearly any country in the world, including the U.S. itself.

It doesn't matter that it could take place anywhere in the world. It took place in Germany. That's where people should be seeking their revenge for 9/11, not Saudi Arabia.

Extremism is exported all over the world in the form of Wahabi/Salafist Imams, literature, and video tapes -- which originate mostly from Saudi Arabia and Egypt respectively. Their beliefs are particularly inviting to those who already have family involved in AQ, or those who are simply desperate for friendship. The recruitment process in Germany had more to do with fraternal bonding and testosterone than any policies or practices of Germany itself.

You admit that the condition of the social situation in Germany is an issue yet then you claim that the policies and practices in Germany are not?

That's just plain 100% wrong... ridiculous even! The formation of the Hamburg Cell had little, if anything, to do with the "social conditions" or policies in Germany -- and I never "admitted" anything of the sort. The recruits' desperation for friendship and a brotherly bond had to do with their being in a foreign country; which, as I said, could have been any foreign country. They simply wanted to find others like themselves who were also from Saudi Arabia -- a "condition" that exists everywhere in the world. (Been to Dearborn, Michigan lately?) Immigrants tend to associate with others like themselves. (Duh.)

In fact, I think you're absolutely nuts for connecting the two issues. The roots of Islamic extremism, and the majority of the factors that led to 9/11, lie in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, "Palestine", and Egypt.

You're out in left field if you honestly believe that Germany is to blame for anything other than letting the Hamburg Cell form under their noses without notice. Beyond that, the blame, and the roots of the extremism, lie in the countries I listed above... especially Saudi Arabia.

Do you know anything about Wahhabism or its kid-brother Salifism? As I said, go back to school son... and start by reading the fucking book I linked to above. Your misdirected hostility toward Germany is just plain ridiculous.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: palehorse

umm.. wow. I don't even know where to start with you... I highly suggest that you study up on the buildup to 9/11. The recruitments in Germany could have taken place in nearly any country in the world, including the U.S. itself.

It doesn't matter that it could take place anywhere in the world. It took place in Germany. That's where people should be seeking their revenge for 9/11, not Saudi Arabia.

Extremism is exported all over the world in the form of Wahabi/Salafist Imams, literature, and video tapes -- which originate mostly from Saudi Arabia and Egypt respectively. Their beliefs are particularly inviting to those who already have family involved in AQ, or those who are simply desperate for friendship. The recruitment process in Germany had more to do with fraternal bonding and testosterone than any policies or practices of Germany itself.

You admit that the condition of the social situation in Germany is an issue yet then you claim that the policies and practices in Germany are not?

That's just plain 100% wrong... ridiculous even! The formation of the Hamburg Cell had little, if anything, to do with the "social conditions" or policies in Germany -- and I never "admitted" anything of the sort. The recruits' desperation for friendship and a brotherly bond had to do with their being in a foreign country; which, as I said, could have been any foreign country. They simply wanted to find others like themselves who were also from Saudi Arabia -- a "condition" that exists everywhere in the world. (Been to Dearborn, Michigan lately?) Immigrants tend to associate with others like themselves. (Duh.)

In fact, I think you're absolutely nuts for connecting the two issues. The roots of Islamic extremism, and the majority of the factors that led to 9/11, lie in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, "Palestine", and Egypt.

You're out in left field if you honestly believe that Germany is to blame for anything other than letting the Hamburg Cell form under their noses without notice. Beyond that, the blame, and the roots of the extremism, lie in the countries I listed above... especially Saudi Arabia.

Do you know anything about Wahhabism or its kid-brother Salifism? As I said, go back to school son... and start by reading the fucking book I linked to above.

You keep claiming what I said is incorrect, but then you claim it as a fact in your own argument.

Germany should be held accountable. Unfortunately, our bizarre obsession with Europe prevents us from realizing that and just deflecting it to Saudi Arabia.
 
In all due respect to the position of palehorse, he has zero understanding of terrorism. While palehorse concentrates on the organizational factors in forming terrorists cells by small numbers of people, he completely fails to understand that if the terrorist message does not resonate in a target population, supremely organized terrorists by themselves can do nothing without popular support.

And then palehorse really screws the pooch by assuming his simplistic and brutal methods will resonate in that same target population and ends up by aiding terrorist recruitment.

But to spare palehorse the efforts, he will call me FOS, but if the shoe fits, wear it for all the negative good you are doing.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
In all due respect to the position of palehorse, he has zero understanding of terrorism. While palehorse concentrates on the organizational factors in forming terrorists cells by small numbers of people, he completely fails to understand that if the terrorist message does not resonate in a target population, supremely organized terrorists by themselves can do nothing without popular support.

And then palehorse really screws the pooch by assuming his simplistic and brutal methods will resonate in that same target population and ends up by aiding terrorist recruitment.

But to spare palehorse the efforts, he will call me FOS, but if the shoe fits, wear it for all the negative good you are doing.
FOS? you're just fucking wrong... all the damn time. Besides, this thread has nothing to do with my "brutal methods," and everything to do with CanOfStupid's ridiculous notion that Germany's policies and social conditions led to the Hamburg Cell and 9/11.

I think it's pretty obvious that he's way out in left field in this thread, but you thought you'd try to be cool and chime in with some non-relevant bullshit in an attempt to take a swing at me and my brutish ways... epic fail.

That said, I think you'll come up wanting if you ever attempt to discuss the origin or root causes of terrorism with me, AQ recruitment practices, or terrorist cell structure. But, then again, that's never stopped you from trying before... so, if you have something to say about any of the facts I laid out for CanOfStupid regarding the Hamburg Cell, or Sageman's account of the recruitment process itself, then please feel free to discuss them.

Otherwise, STFU and crawl back into your hole.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Germany should be held accountable. Unfortunately, our bizarre obsession with Europe prevents us from realizing that and just deflecting it to Saudi Arabia.

Except the country of Germany, as in their state officials, did not sponsor that act(s) of terrorism. You can't hold a country accountable for something they 1) didn't aid in and 2) wouldn't aid in even if given a golden opportunity.

Germany is a great country and a strong ally, period.
 
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Germany should be held accountable. Unfortunately, our bizarre obsession with Europe prevents us from realizing that and just deflecting it to Saudi Arabia.

Except the country of Germany, as in their state officials, did not sponsor that act(s) of terrorism. You can't hold a country accountable for something they 1) didn't aid in and 2) wouldn't aid in even if given a golden opportunity.

They certainly aided it with their policies. Am I saying that they intentionally did it? No. But they certainly are the one to point at. They are not our ally.

Germany is a great country and a strong ally, period.

They're only an ally to those blind to reality.

Use of intelligence agencies to infiltrate political parties and tries to ban them, vast history of supporting genocides, increasingly far-right supremacist population, anti-minority legislation, etc. Sounds like it could be Saudi Arabia, but it's actually Germany.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
They certainly aided it with their policies. Am I saying that they intentionally did it? No. But they certainly are the one to point at. They are not our ally.
1) Which policies? Be specific.

2) Then, in detail, please explain why Germany is not a good ally to the U.S.

They're only an ally to those blind to reality.

Use of intelligence agencies to infiltrate political parties and tries to ban them, vast history of supporting genocides, increasingly far-right supremacist population, anti-minority legislation, etc. Sounds like it could be Saudi Arabia, but it's actually Germany.
3) Please post specific policies/legislation and accurate statistics from reliable sources.

4) Please list each and every genocide that Germany has participated in, inspired, or supported -- besides the Holocaust during WWII. Please include dates and locations.

5) Please provide direct link(s) between the German government and Islamic Extremists.

6) Please describe, in detail, how the German government is responsible for the recruitment of the Hamburg Cell prior to 9/11.

Until you do so, you'll be placed in the Official P&N Nutjob Holding Pen (TM). Don't worry, you'll have plenty of company in there... Thanks ahead of time.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
They certainly aided it with their policies. Am I saying that they intentionally did it? No. But they certainly are the one to point at. They are not our ally.
Which policies? Be specific.

If you have to be told, then you're obviously ignorant on the subject.

Support for illegally building concentration camps in the African desert to house refugees,
Strict & archaic nationalization laws until 2000 kept millions of minorities from attaining citizenship, headscarf bans, etc.

In addition to the German state, the society actively worked to brutalize minorities.

Please post specific policies/legislation and accurate statistics from reliable sources.

Until you do so, you'll be placed in the Official Nutjob Holding Pen. But, don't worry, you'll have plenty of ATP&N company. Thanks ahead of time...

What, like the Racism and Xenophobia in Europe poll #47.1 presented at the Closing Conference of the European Year Against Racism analysed under the responsibility of Jeanne Ben Brika and Gérard Lemaine (Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris), and James S. Jackson (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan) finding that 57% of Germans described themselves as racist?

Can you imagine living in a society where most of the population hates you, wants to kill you, exterminate you just like they have done so many times in history? You really don't think that had any effect on the 9/11 terrorists? Ones like Atta were radicalized in Germany. I wonder why... Maybe someone needs to make some space for you in the pen.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
They certainly aided it with their policies. Am I saying that they intentionally did it? No. But they certainly are the one to point at. They are not our ally.
Which policies? Be specific.

If you have to be told, then you're obviously ignorant on the subject.

annnnnd the Cop-out of the Year Award goes to....

Support for illegally building concentration camps in the African desert to house refugees
Links please.
Strict & archaic nationalization laws until 2000 kept millions of minorities from attaining citizenship
Links please.
headscarf bans
Links please.

In addition to the German state, the society actively worked to brutalize minorities.
Links please.

What, like the Racism and Xenophobia in Europe poll #47.1 presented at the Closing Conference of the European Year Against Racism analyzed under the responsibility of Jeanne Ben Brika and Gérard Lemaine (Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris), and James S. Jackson (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan) finding that 57% of Germans described themselves as racist?
umm, that doesn't quite qualify as "specific legislation"

Can you imagine living in a society where most of the population hates you, wants to kill you, exterminate you just like they have done so many times in history? You really don't think that had any effect on the 9/11 terrorists? Ones like Atta were radicalized in Germany. I wonder why... Maybe someone needs to make some space for you in the pen.
ohhhh, I get it now!! You're one of those clowns who thinks that countries need to adapt to their immigrants, and not vice-versa! Now everything you've said makes sense!!

well, almost...

You still have no fucking idea what you're talking about when it comes to the Hamburg Cell. The link I gave you to the Understanding Terror Networks book is your first clue. Go read it and learn something... but, don't be shocked when you find out that the recruitment of Islamic immigrants in Germany had little, if anything, to do with German social conditions and policy.

It had everything to do with a couple of guys looking for friends who look and think like themselves... just like any American kid who wanders into college fraternity parties looking for acceptance, and just like every immigrant to any foreign country.

Unfortunately, for all of us, they found their "brotherhood" at a random mosque in Germany where extreme Islam was the norm.

Please read up on the following before you bother to reply again... it'll save you some embaressment... or not.

- the Al-Quds Mosque
- Mohammed Haydar Zammar

and, perhaps most importantly...

- <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.globaljihad.net/view_page.asp?id=390">Imam Mohammed bin Mohammed al Fizazi
</a>

Excerpt:
In the early 90s?, after the first Gulf War against Iraq in 1991, Mohamed Fizazi traveled to Saudi Arabia for religious training and indoctrination. When Mohamed Fizazi returned to Morocco, in contrast to the vast majority of the Moroccan population that believes in the Malekite moderate version of Islam, Mohamed Fizazi began to preach the more extreme Wahhabism doctrine and called his group of followers Salafia Jihadia.
In 1999 Mohamed Fizazi became the Imam of the Al Quds Mosque in Hamburg, Germany. In the Al Quds Mosque, where the Hamburg Cell members used to convene, Mohamed Fizazi preached regularly his extreme philosophy.

I'm tired of schooling you... if/when you decide to join everyone else in the real world, and you educate yourself, I might consider responding to you again.

Good luck.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse

annnnnd the Cop-out of the Year Award goes to....

You for your "read this book!!!!! it shows the light!" statement?

Links please.

They're pretty easy to find. Pick one from thousands:

http://www.google.com/search?q=german+headscarf+ban
http://www.google.com/search?q...+african+refugee+camps
http://www.google.com/search?q...ship+requirements+2000


umm, that doesn't quite qualify as "specific legislation"

It is "accurate statistics from reliable sources" regarding the German society.

ohhhh, I get it now!! You're one of those clowns who thinks that countries need to adapt to their immigrants, and not vice-versa! Now everything you've said makes sense!!

No.

well, almost...

You still have no fucking idea what you're talking about when it comes to the Hamburg Cell. The link I gave you to the Understanding Terror Networks book is your first clue. Go read it and learn something... but, don't be shocked when you find out that the recruitment of Islamic immigrants in Germany had little, if anything, to do with German social conditions and policy.

Cop-out of the Year Award

It had everything to do with a couple of guys looking for friends who look and think like themselves... just like any American kid who wanders into college fraternity parties looking for acceptance, and just like every immigrant to any foreign country.

Unfortunately, for all of us, they found their "brotherhood" at a random mosque in Germany where extreme Islam was the norm.

Please read up on the following before you bother to reply again... it'll save you some embaressment... or not.

- the Al-Quds Mosque
- Mohammed Haydar Zammar

and, perhaps most importantly...
- Imam Mohammed bin Mohammed al Fizazi

I'm tired of schooling you... if/when you decide to join everyone else in the real world, and you educate yourself, I might consider responding to you again.

Good luck.

Again, you claim what I say is incorrect but then use it as a central point for your own argument. It seems that you agree with me, but can't make yourself realize it. Why the attachment with Germany? It's just irrational. Free yourself from it.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: palehorse

annnnnd the Cop-out of the Year Award goes to....

You for your "read this book!!!!! it shows the light!" statement?

Links please.

They're pretty easy to find. Pick one from thousands:

http://www.google.com/search?q=german+headscarf+ban
http://www.google.com/search?q...+african+refugee+camps
http://www.google.com/search?q...ship+requirements+2000


umm, that doesn't quite qualify as "specific legislation"

It is "accurate statistics from reliable sources" regarding the German society.

ohhhh, I get it now!! You're one of those clowns who thinks that countries need to adapt to their immigrants, and not vice-versa! Now everything you've said makes sense!!

No.

well, almost...

You still have no fucking idea what you're talking about when it comes to the Hamburg Cell. The link I gave you to the Understanding Terror Networks book is your first clue. Go read it and learn something... but, don't be shocked when you find out that the recruitment of Islamic immigrants in Germany had little, if anything, to do with German social conditions and policy.

Cop-out of the Year Award

It had everything to do with a couple of guys looking for friends who look and think like themselves... just like any American kid who wanders into college fraternity parties looking for acceptance, and just like every immigrant to any foreign country.

Unfortunately, for all of us, they found their "brotherhood" at a random mosque in Germany where extreme Islam was the norm.

Please read up on the following before you bother to reply again... it'll save you some embaressment... or not.

- the Al-Quds Mosque
- Mohammed Haydar Zammar

and, perhaps most importantly...
- Imam Mohammed bin Mohammed al Fizazi

I'm tired of schooling you... if/when you decide to join everyone else in the real world, and you educate yourself, I might consider responding to you again.

Good luck.

Again, you claim what I say is incorrect but then use it as a central point for your own argument. It seems that you agree with me, but can't make yourself realize it. Why the attachment with Germany? It's just irrational. Free yourself from it.
well, for one, I'm a German/Italian immigrant to the U.S., along with my mother. I still have 100+ relatives in Germany -- that I know fairly well -- and I go there frequently.

That said, I don't see how ANYTHING I've written meshes with your ridiculous notion that Germany is to blame for the Hamburg Cell or the incidents leading up to 9/11.

Perhaps you could explain how my responses somehow agree with yours...?! 😕

Also, go back and read my last post again... I've edited it to include a link and some very important excerpts that clearly demonstrate the root of the problem in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

Why do I bother?!

As for your links...
1) The headscarf ban was a State issue in Germany -- yet another knee-jerk reaction to 9/11 -- and it was overturned in 2006. The German Federal government rejected it outright from the very beginning

2) The African refugee camps are an EU issue, not a German issue specifically. Africa is a fucking mess, and Germany is just one of dozens of countries trying to find a way to deal with it...

3) I see no problems with the German citizenship requirements. In fact, I wish we'd adopt some of them in the U.S. I'm particularly fond of their lack of anchor-babies and other ridiculous loopholes. Requiring proficiency in the language and self-sufficiency also get a big thumbs up! There is no good reason a country should allow probable welfare recipients to gain citizenship.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse

well, for one, I'm a German/Italian immigrant to the U.S., along with my mother. I still have 100+ relatives in Germany -- that I know fairly well -- and I go there frequently.

Kind of ironic. You claimed "You're one of those clowns who thinks that countries need to adapt to their immigrants, and not vice-versa!" yet it seems that you think that the US should adapt and be friends and allies with Germany when we really should be enemies.

That said, I don't see how ANYTHING I've written meshes with your ridiculous notion that Germany is to blame for the Hamburg Cell or the incidents leading up to 9/11.

Perhaps you could explain how my responses somehow agree with yours...?! 😕

desperate for friendship
fraternal bonding and testosterone
desperation for friendship and a brotherly bond
looking for friends

You're basically restating what I'm claiming in different terms. German society rejected them.

Also, go back and read my last post again... I've edited it to include a link and some very important excerpts that clearly demonstrate the root of the problem in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

No, it doesn't.

Why do I bother?!

I think it's because you know that I'm really right, but you're a little scared to face the truth.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: palehorse

well, for one, I'm a German/Italian immigrant to the U.S., along with my mother. I still have 100+ relatives in Germany -- that I know fairly well -- and I go there frequently.

Kind of ironic. You claimed "You're one of those clowns who thinks that countries need to adapt to their immigrants, and not vice-versa!" yet it seems that you think that the US should adapt and be friends and allies with Germany when we really should be enemies.
😕
Are you high!? I don't think we "should be" anything.. We ARE allied with Germany, and rightfully so! There is not one single logical reason to be enemies of Germany.. not one. And you've certainly not posted one...

That said, I don't see how ANYTHING I've written meshes with your ridiculous notion that Germany is to blame for the Hamburg Cell or the incidents leading up to 9/11.

Perhaps you could explain how my responses somehow agree with yours...?! 😕

desperate for friendship
fraternal bonding and testosterone
desperation for friendship and a brotherly bond
looking for friends

You're basically restating what I'm claiming in different terms. German society rejected them.
nobody fucking rejected them... those feelings are universal for immigrants and citizens alike! Your average college boy in the U.S. looks for the same damn things when he wanders off to school at age 18... But, instead of the Jihad, he usually finds a sports team, a club, or a fraternity to join instead.

In the case of the Hamburg cell, they were students in search of their faith... what they found was a radical version of Wahhabism being preached in their local mosque by some douchebag from Morocco who had himself been brainwashed in Saudi Arabia.

And, had it not been for a chance encounter with an AQ recruiter, they would have all died while fighting in Chechnya instead of diverting to Afghanistan...

Mohammed Atta's hatred and hostilities are well documented, and none of which was directed toward Germany or its citizens. The man wanted to kill every last American and Jew on the planet; but, he never said anything to his friends or family about doing the same to Germans... not once.

Also, go back and read my last post again... I've edited it to include a link and some very important excerpts that clearly demonstrate the root of the problem in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

No, it doesn't.
You're blind. Wahhabism is the root of extreme Islam, and Wahhabism is rooted in Saudi Arabia.

Why do I bother?!

I think it's because you know that I'm really right, but you're a little scared to face the truth.
You're one fucked up dude... or you're high... or both.

wow.

Go back to school.. I'm through with you.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse

😕
Are you high!? I don't think we "should be" anything.. We ARE allied with Germany, and rightfully so! There is not one single logical reason to be enemies of Germany.. not one. And you've certainly not posted one...

I've posted several. In addition, everything that that the USA should stand for is opposed by Germany. Political freedom, freedom of religion, etc. They should be our enemies. They're just a European Saudi Arabia.

nobody fucking rejected them... those feelings are universal for immigrants and citizens alike! Your average college boy in the U.S. looks for the same damn things when he wanders off to school at age 18... But, instead of Jihad, he usually finds a sports team, a club, or fraternity to join instead.

In the case of the Hamburg cell, they were students in search of their faith... what they found was a radical version of Wahhabism being preached in their local mosque by some douchebag from Morocco who had himself been brainwashed in Saudi Arabia.

German society rejected them and drove them there.

You're blind. Wahhabism is the root of extreme Islam, and Wahhabism is rooted in Saudi Arabia.

And many of the 9/11 terrorists were radicalized in Germany. German society and policies is the root of their radicalization. Wahhabism is just what they embraced.

You're one fucked up dude... or you're high... or both.

wow.

I think that one day you will turn around and come to the truth. Maybe it will be the day you get drafted because the Germans start another "final solution."
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms

I've posted several.

No actually, you haven't. You posted Google links which contain outdated information about, for instance, the headscarf ban, which was eventually overturned in 06, information which had to be spoon fed to you.

In addition, everything that that the USA should stand for is opposed by Germany. Political freedom, freedom of religion, etc. They should be our enemies. They're just a European Saudi Arabia.

No, not really, and you couldn't defend this if your life depended on it. Google links, without specifically cited excerpts and analysis, mean absolute bunk. Naturally, given that what you say is completely false, google links was the best you could do.

And many of the 9/11 terrorists were radicalized in Germany. German society and policies is the root of their radicalization.

Something else you couldn't defend with specific excerpts from credible sources with your own independent analysis if your life depended on it. Excerpts from Wikipedia:

As late as 1999, the four core members of the group had intended to wage jihad in Chechnya, where Islamic jihadists were then and are now rebelling against the parent country of Russia. The 9/11 Commission Report notes in Chapter 5 that "according to Binalshibh [who is now in U.S. custody], a chance meeting on a train in Germany caused the group to travel to Afghanistan instead. An individual named Khalid al Masri (or Khalid al-Masri) approached Binalshibh and Shehhi (because they were Arabs with beards, Binalshibh thinks) and struck up a conversation about jihad in Chechnya. When they later called Masri and expressed interest in going to Chechnya, he told them to contact Abu Musab in Duisburg, Germany. Abu Musab turned out to be Mohamedou Ould Slahi, a significant al-Qaeda operative who, even then, was well known to U.S. and German intelligence, though neither government apparently knew he was operating in Germany in late 1999."

Binalshibh, Shehhi and Jarrah visited Slahi in Duisburg, where he convinced them that it would be best to train in Afghanistan first, because further experience would be useful, and anyway it was difficult at that time to get into Chechnya. Slahi instructed them to travel to Karachi, Pakistan, then to the Taliban office in Quetta, Pakistan, where they were to contact a man named Umar al Masri. Atta and Jarrah left Hamburg during the last week of November, 1999. Shehhi left by himself around the same time; Binalshibh followed two weeks later.

"Umar al Masri" turned out to be a nonexistent person. The name was a code word that instructed members of the Taliban office to escort the men to Kandahar, Afghanistan, where they were convinced to join the al-Qaeda network and wage jihad against America. They met with Osama bin Laden himself and swore their loyalty to him. Mohamed Atta al Sayed was chosen by Bin Laden as the leader of the group that would attack America; Atta would contact Bin Laden several more times before the attacks. The men then returned to Germany to enroll in flight training school, and later moved on to flight training schools in the United States at the recommendation of one of their German instructors.

Radicalized in Germany yet they couldn't see the light while in flight training schools in the U.S.? Inane logic at its finest.

I think that one day you will turn around and come to the truth. Maybe it will be the day you get drafted because the Germans start another "final solution."

Welcome to 2008 kid.
 
Official P&N Nutjob Holding Pen (TM) indeed. CanOWorms is the latest official inductee. Man, what a nut. CanO, say "hi" to Dave for us, would ya? 😉
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
German society rejected them and drove them there.
OK, now it's official... you're a kook.

You do not know anything, at all, about Germany, The Hamburg Cell, or extreme Islam.

Germany is a great ally to the U.S.... Saudi Arabia? Not so much...
 
can o worms
u just need to look alittle further back in history to see germanys place in all this.
from a john loftus article:
The Muslim Brotherhood, Nazis and Al-Qaeda
http://www.john-loftus.com/MB_N_AQ.htm

Here's how the story began. In the 1920's there was a young Egyptian named al Banna. And al Banna formed this nationalist group called the Muslim Brotherhood. Al Banna was a devout admirer of Adolph Hitler and wrote to him frequently. So persistent was he in his admiration of the new Nazi Party that in the 1930's, al-Banna and the Muslim Brotherhood became a secret arm of Nazi intelligence.

The Arab Nazis had much in common with the new Nazi doctrines. They hated Jews; they hated democracy; and they hated the Western culture. It became the official policy of the Third Reich to secretly develop the Muslim Brotherhood as a fifth column, a secret Nazi army inside Egypt. When war broke out, the Muslim Brotherhood promised in writing that they would rise up and help General Rommell and make sure that no English or American soldier was left alive in Cairo or Alexandria.

The Muslim Brotherhood began to expand in scope and influence during World War II. They even had a Palestinian section headed by the grand Mufti of Jerusalem, one of the great bigots of all time.

Here, too, was a man who loved Hitler. The grand Mufti of Jerusalem was the Muslim Brotherhood representative for Palestine. These men were undoubtedly Arab Nazis.

The Grand Mufti, for example, went to Germany during the war and helped recruit an international SS division of Arab Nazis. They based it in Croatia and called it the "Handjar" Muslim Division, but it was to become the core of Hitler's new army of Arab fascists that would conquer the Arab peninsula and then all of Africa -- grand dreams.

At the end of World War II, the Muslim Brotherhood was wanted for war crimes. Their German intelligence handlers were captured in Cairo. The whole net was rolled up by the British Secret Service. Then a horrible thing happened.

Instead of prosecuting the Nazis -- the Muslim Brotherhood -- the British government hired them.

They brought all the fugitive Nazi war criminals of Arab and Muslim descent into Egypt, and for three years they were trained on a special mission. The British Secret Service wanted to use the fascists of the Muslim Brotherhood to strike down the infant state of Israel in 1948.

Britain was not alone.

The French intelligence service cooperated by releasing the Grand Mufti and smuggling him to Egypt, so all of the Arab Nazis came together.

So, from 1945 to 1948, the British Secret Service protected every Arab Nazi they could, but they failed to quash the State of Israel.

What the British did then, in the 1950's they sold the Arab Nazis to the predecessor of what became the CIA.
During the 1950's, the CIA evacuated the Nazis of the Muslim Brotherhood to Saudi Arabia.

Now when they arrived in Saudi Arabia, some of the leading lights of the Muslim Brotherhood like Azzam, became the teachers in the Madrasas, the religious schools. And there they combined the doctrines of Nazism with this weird Islamic cult, Wahhabiism. Everyone thinks that Islam is this fanatical religion, but it is not. They think that Wahabbism- the Saudi version of Islam -- is typical, but it's not.

The Wahhabi cult was condemned as a heresy more than 60 times by the mainstream Muslim nations before 1900. But when the Saudis got wealthy, their oil money bought a lot of silence. This is a very harsh cult. Wahhabiism was only practiced by two nations, the Taliban and Saudi Arabia.

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so the muslim brotherhood was an intelligence arm of nazi intel. al qaeda came from the muslim brotherhood.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
No, I'm talking about many of the 9/11 terrorists. They were radicalized in Germany. They became fundamentalists in Germany. The German culture and German policies transformed these people into monsters.

Ignoring this will just cause another 9/11 to happen. Oppressive European policies have caused several terrorist attacks in Europe for several decades. 9/11 shows that we cannot ignore the archaic European policies since they affect us as well.

WTF? You're blaming German culture for turning the 9/11 terrorists against the US? If they were so pissed at their treatment in Germany why would they attack the US?

Along the same line, why would this 'evil German culture' be turning just muslims into radicals?

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
LoL only americans would try to sue for a terrorist attack.

Sad but true. I swear I can't watch 1 TV show without some slimeball ambulance chaser commercial about 'getting what's yours'.
 
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

No actually, you haven't. You posted Google links which contain outdated information about, for instance, the headscarf ban, which was eventually overturned in 06, information which had to be spoon fed to you.

Actually, I have. Not only are you incorrect (I'm assuming that you're talking about the teacher which won the case to wear a headscarf but then was overturned this year... several German states have enacted bans in the last several years), but 2006 would be 5 years after 9/11. Just the leadup to a ban would be indicative of the condition of the society and governments.

Looks like the information needs to be spoonfed to you. Too bad you will just vomit it out and expunge the truth so you can continue to believe in a lie.

No, not really, and you couldn't defend this if your life depended on it. Google links, without specifically cited excerpts and analysis, mean absolute bunk. Naturally, given that what you say is completely false, google links was the best you could do.

Links please.

Something else you couldn't defend with specific excerpts from credible sources with your own independent analysis if your life depended on it. Excerpts from Wikipedia:

Man landed on the moon. That statement is as relevant as what you posted.

Welcome to 2008 kid.

You're the one that seems to be living in the past.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
German society rejected them and drove them there.
OK, now it's official... you're a kook.

You do not know anything, at all, about Germany, The Hamburg Cell, or extreme Islam.

Germany is a great ally to the U.S.... Saudi Arabia? Not so much...

Great ally? How many Americans have died due to Germany? A lot more than Saudi Arabia.
 
This thread is bizarred, and reflective of the sue happy attitudes present in our culture.

Unless it's state sponsored terrorism, which 9-11 was not, civil lawsuits have little place in this area unless you want to pursue the individual perps. Of course, they are mostly dead (or in GITMO).

Fern
 
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