SATA PCI card a viable upgrade?

[Muse]

My HTPC running XP Pro and 2GB RAM has a lousy SATA controller chip. The mobo is a
Gigabyte GA-K8n Pro nforce 3 with Silicon Image siI3512 SATA controller. This mobo, I believe, was one of the earlier SATA supporters, has maybe a couple of SATA connections and a plethora of IDE options, and I currently have 3 IDE HDs (120, 160 and 200GB) in the machine and boot to the 120GB HD. I get occasional lockups (very annoying!) when I use my HDTV application and write to the 500GB SATA HD on the SATA controller, so I write HDTV files to a USB connected WD 2TB HD instead. I'm wanting to drop an SSD into the machine but fear that the crummy SATA controller is a sore point and will give sad performance (or no performance). Should I shop for another motherboard or can I maybe get by OK by inserting an SATA PCI controller card?

 

[mfenn]

A PCI controller card will work, but realize that you'll be limited to 133MB/s of bandwidth shared across all devices. I think that most of the inexpensive cards are based around Silicon Image controllers, but the new ones should be much better than the old one that you have.

 

[wirednuts]

i used a 4 port pci to sata card in an old athlon rig once. it worked great for a few months, then i would get data loss here and there. annoying as hell, because i kept testing the drives and they were fine. finally, i ripped the pci card out and just used $3 usb to sata converters and all has been peaches since.

 

[Muse]

A PCI controller card will work, but realize that you'll be limited to 133MB/s of bandwidth shared across all devices. I think that most of the inexpensive cards are based around Silicon Image controllers, but the new ones should be much better than the old one that you have.

I'm wondering a few things:

1. Are the "new ones" PCI as well as PCI Express? The mobo in the system only has PCI slots (plus an AGP for video!).

2. Are the new ones SATA II (i.e. support 3GB/Sec)? The SATA II cards I'm seeing seem to be PCI Express.

3. Is it possible to boot from an SATA drive on one of these cards. The reviews I've been reading haven't made this clear at all.

4. Is it reasonable to install an SATA III SSD on one of these (and PCI at that) and have it as my boot drive?

Absent (4.) I may just stick with PATA HDs and the one SATA 500GB HD I have on that crappy SI controller for the time being, and look for a better motherboard.

 

[bryanl]

1. PCI and PCI-E are very different busses, and motherboards with both AGP and PCI-E slots are very rare.

2. SATA won't be supporting 3GB/sec for a while since that's 5x the speed of even SATA III. The maximum bus speed of PCI makes PCI controllers top out at slightly under the 150MB/sec speed of first generation SATA drives, but that shouldn't be a serious limitation for A/V applications. All PCI SATA controllers except those based on old versions of VIA chips are compatible with 300MB/sec drives.

3. Booting from SATA hard drives is no problem with the cards, but booting from CD, DVD, or Blu-Ray has been, although not Silicon Image cards. SSD should be bootable.

 

[mfenn]

1. Are the "new ones" PCI as well as PCI Express? The mobo in the system only has PCI slots (plus an AGP for video!).

Yes. You can get a new SATA controller chipset on a PCI or PCIe card.

2. Are the new ones SATA II (i.e. support 3GB/Sec)? The SATA II cards I'm seeing seem to be PCI Express.

There's no such thing as SATA II, SATA III, or SATA 3GB/s. The terms you are probably looking for are SATA 3Gb/s and SATA 6Gb/s. There's no real point in a PCI card supporting SATA 3Gb/s (375MB/s) since the PCI bus tops out at 133MB/s.

3. Is it possible to boot from an SATA drive on one of these cards. The reviews I've been reading haven't made this clear at all.

The Silicon Image controllers do include a boot ROM so that you can boot from HDDs that are attached.

4. Is it reasonable to install an SATA III SSD on one of these (and PCI at that) and have it as my boot drive?

Assuming that by SATA III you mean SATA 6Gb/s, then yes it will work. All SATA drives are backwards compatible with the slower speeds.

Absent (4.) I may just stick with PATA HDs and the one SATA 500GB HD I have on that crappy SI controller for the time being, and look for a better motherboard.

Also a reasonable course of action. A $50 Celeron, $50 H61, and $20 of DDR3 board will be much faster than anything based on Socket 754.

 

[Muse]

Yes. You can get a new SATA controller chipset on a PCI or PCIe card.



There's no such thing as SATA II, SATA III, or SATA 3GB/s. The terms you are probably looking for are SATA 3Gb/s and SATA 6Gb/s. There's no real point in a PCI card supporting SATA 3Gb/s (375MB/s) since the PCI bus tops out at 133MB/s.



The Silicon Image controllers do include a boot ROM so that you can boot from HDDs that are attached.



Assuming that by SATA III you mean SATA 6Gb/s, then yes it will work. All SATA drives are backwards compatible with the slower speeds.



Also a reasonable course of action. A $50 Celeron, $50 H61, and $20 of DDR3 board will be much faster than anything based on Socket 754.

One requirement is PCI, if I'm to continue my mid-tower's function as an HDTV HTPC. I have a PCI MyHD130 card in it, plus its daughterboard. There's also a PCI modem. I could maybe get by without the modem. Maybe the mobo would have built in modem (for faxing), which would suffice. I run simple Winfax software on the PC, for the occasional (pretty rare) fax job that comes along. I also have a PCI sound card in there, that I'm sort of attached to due to the connectivity advantages of the breakout box (Hercules Game Theater XP). So 3 PCI slots, if it doesn't support modem natively. I know that narrows it down, hope it does strangle the upgrade strategy. I have a firewire PCI card too! I figure a lot of mobos support firewire natively, no? I don't use firewire a lot (it's been years), but I will maybe want to. I have another old mid tower system I could put the firewire card in for that, however.

I guess it doesn't make much sense to get a PCI SATA card and have a 6GB/s SSD on it if the PCI bus only supports 150MB/s. I suppose an IDE HD isn't much slower that that.

 

[mfenn]

The PCI Bus is only 133MB/s, and that's shared across all the devices on it. With that many devices on your PCI bus, you would get nowhere near peak performance.

No modern motherboard is going to have a built-in modem (modems are dead), and only a few high-end ones have Firewire (Firewire is on life support). Sometimes, you just have to let go.

Luckily for you, you can hold off on that time for a little while longer, as there is one company crazy enough to make an H61 board with 6 (six!) PCI slots. It has a serial and parallel ports to boot! But really, you should just dump all that old PCI junk at your earliest opportunity. It can all be replaced with USB and PCIe.

 

[Muse]

The PCI Bus is only 133MB/s, and that's shared across all the devices on it. With that many devices on your PCI bus, you would get nowhere near peak performance.

No modern motherboard is going to have a built-in modem (modems are dead), and only a few high-end ones have Firewire (Firewire is on life support). Sometimes, you just have to let go.

Luckily for you, you can hold off on that time for a little while longer, as there is one company crazy enough to make an H61 board with 6 (six!) PCI slots. It has a serial and parallel ports to boot! But really, you should just dump all that old PCI junk at your earliest opportunity. It can all be replaced with USB and PCIe.

That H61 board has my interest but what I can't wrap my head around is this:

Video Ports D-sub

VGA???

My current ancient mobo (see OP) has an AGP slot (the H61 apparently can't accommodate a video card, that is unless you can drop one in a PCI slot!) and I have a dual DVI video card in it to get a dual monitor DVI setup. Is there a way to get dual displays with this?

I could maybe manage one DVI connection to a monitor by virtue of the DVI daughterboard of the MyHD 130 HDTV card I'd drop in the system (actually I think that may not work without a DVI feed from the system, I think I have a DVI cable coming from my video card into the MyHD hardware). Maybe the other monitor could be fed a VGA signal. I don't use dual monitor much, actually, but I'd like to have it when I want it, and my usage could change. It might depend on what the integrated graphics supports.

As far as a modem is concerned, well I guess my Thinkpads have modems. I haven't tried sending and receiving faxes from them yet, however.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

One requirement is PCI, if I'm to continue my mid-tower's function as an HDTV HTPC. I have a PCI MyHD130 card in it, plus its daughterboard. There's also a PCI modem. I could maybe get by without the modem. Maybe the mobo would have built in modem (for faxing), which would suffice. I run simple Winfax software on the PC, for the occasional (pretty rare) fax job that comes along. I also have a PCI sound card in there, that I'm sort of attached to due to the connectivity advantages of the breakout box (Hercules Game Theater XP). So 3 PCI slots, if it doesn't support modem natively. I know that narrows it down, hope it does strangle the upgrade strategy. I have a firewire PCI card too! I figure a lot of mobos support firewire natively, no? I don't use firewire a lot (it's been years), but I will maybe want to. I have another old mid tower system I could put the firewire card in for that, however.

Luckily for you, you can hold off on that time for a little while longer, as there is one company crazy enough to make an H61 board with 6 (six!) PCI slots. It has a serial and parallel ports to boot! But really, you should just dump all that old PCI junk at your earliest opportunity. It can all be replaced with USB and PCIe.

I could maybe manage one DVI connection to a monitor by virtue of the DVI daughterboard of the MyHD 130 HDTV card I'd drop in the system (actually I think that may not work without a DVI feed from the system, I think I have a DVI cable coming from my video card into the MyHD hardware). Maybe the other monitor could be fed a VGA signal. I don't use dual monitor much, actually, but I'd like to have it when I want it, and my usage could change. It might depend on what the integrated graphics supports.

Actually I'd suggest something like this. Its expensive, but has dual DVI (single-link) ports onboard, so you won't need a discrete GFX card. 2 PCI slots for your tv turner and soundcard. You'd need a USB modem for fax though...

 

[tweakboy]

It's going to still not be sata 3.0 speeds,, youll get 2.3 sata speeds heeh.

 

[Muse]

Actually I'd suggest something like this. Its expensive, but has dual DVI (single-link) ports onboard, so you won't need a discrete GFX card. 2 PCI slots for your tv turner and soundcard. You'd need a USB modem for fax though...

That looks interesting. I realize sometimes you have to go expensive to get what you want.

 

[Muse]

It's going to still not be sata 3.0 speeds,, youll get 2.3 sata speeds heeh.

Could you elaborate? What's 2.3 sata speeds? Are you talking about that Asus mobo?

At Asus' page it says:

Intel® Q77 chipset :
4 x SATA 3Gb/s port(s), blue
2 x SATA 6Gb/s port(s), gray

Won't fully support the 6GB/s SSD's I have?

 

[mfenn]

That H61 board has my interest but what I can't wrap my head around is this:

Video Ports D-sub

VGA???

My current ancient mobo (see OP) has an AGP slot (the H61 apparently can't accommodate a video card, that is unless you can drop one in a PCI slot!) and I have a dual DVI video card in it to get a dual monitor DVI setup. Is there a way to get dual displays with this?

The H61 in general and the Foxconn board in particular most certainly can accomodate a video card. It has a PCIe x16 slot, so you can just drop a PCIe GPU in for dual displays. AGP is extremely dead (moreso even that your PCI cards), so you're not going to be able to get any modern board that will fit you AGP card.

Actually I'd suggest something like this. Its expensive, but has dual DVI (single-link) ports onboard, so you won't need a discrete GFX card. 2 PCI slots for your tv turner and soundcard. You'd need a USB modem for fax though...

Seems like a bad value to me. For the cost of the board (122 Euros ~ $150), you could buy the Foxconn I recommended and a PCIe board to go with it. Then you could set them on fire and do it all over again while still spending less money.

Could you elaborate? What's 2.3 sata speeds? Are you talking about that Asus mobo?

At Asus' page it says:

Intel® Q77 chipset :
4 x SATA 3Gb/s port(s), blue
2 x SATA 6Gb/s port(s), gray

Won't fully support the 6GB/s SSD's I have?

Ignore him, it's typical tweakboy nonsense.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Seems like a bad value to me. For the cost of the board (122 Euros ~ $150), you could buy the Foxconn I recommended and a PCIe board to go with it. Then you could set them on fire and do it all over again while still spending less money.

If you don't need the features, I agree 100%... (didn't realize it was that expensive. You can get a very decent Z77 cheaper...)

There is also this one, but you'll need a PCIe GFX card to drive that second monitor...

 

[Gunbuster]

I would think that "lockups" are related to that HDD going bad and not a slow SATA controller problem.

 

[Muse]

The H61 in general and the Foxconn board in particular most certainly can accomodate a video card. It has a PCIe x16 slot, so you can just drop a PCIe GPU in for dual displays. AGP is extremely dead (moreso even that your PCI cards), so you're not going to be able to get any modern board that will fit you AGP card.

Here's another Foxconn MB, seems similar, think it has a different Intel chipset, but still has a lot of the features including the 6 PCI slots. It's cheaper. Is it a reasonable choice or am I giving up something significant?

Foxconn H61AP Intel H57 DDR3 1066 LGA 1155

 

[Muse]

I would think that "lockups" are related to that HDD going bad and not a slow SATA controller problem.

Always a possibility however the HD has been performing on a consistent level. I have heard that the controller is primitive and the likely cause of the lockups in the MyHD application. I don't know that it's the slowness of the controller, exactly. I don't know what the issue is, but apparently that SATA controller is notoriously problematical. I only have one HD I could test it with ATM. Of course, I have a couple of SATA SSD's that aren't installed yet too.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Here's another Foxconn MB, seems similar, think it has a different Intel chipset, but still has a lot of the features including the 6 PCI slots. It's cheaper. Is it a reasonable choice or am I giving up something significant?

Foxconn H61AP Intel H57 DDR3 1066 LGA 1155

Other then SATA3, USB3 and PCIe upgrade potential, no.

I did find that B75 board I linked to on newegg. Personally I think its a better buy, since it allows you to use what you already have and has plenty of future upgrade potential...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131835

 

[Muse]

Other then SATA3, USB3 and PCIe upgrade potential, no.

I did find that B75 board I linked to on newegg. Personally I think its a better buy, since it allows you to use what you already have and has plenty of future upgrade potential...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131835

Damn, the anandtech product redirect doesn't work, typical. :\

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you linked the Asus P8B75-V.

Um, I assume maybe you were being facetious with the first statement, suggesting that yes, I'm giving up a lot with that cheaper board.

Future upgrade potential does mean a lot to me. I don't upgrade typically every two years, although I have once, maybe quicker than that when I moved up from my Epox 8K7A.

 

[mfenn]

Here's another Foxconn MB, seems similar, think it has a different Intel chipset, but still has a lot of the features including the 6 PCI slots. It's cheaper. Is it a reasonable choice or am I giving up something significant?

Foxconn H61AP Intel H57 DDR3 1066 LGA 1155

I think that's the same board just mislabeled as an H57. I don't see why you would buy it from Amazon since it's more expensive.

 

[Muse]

I think that's the same board just mislabeled as an H57. I don't see why you would buy it from Amazon since it's more expensive.

If it is really the same board as Foxconn H61AP LGA 1155 Intel H61 ATX Intel Motherboard at Newegg, it might be cheaper off Amazon because Newegg charges shipping and Amazon doesn't. I have to pay tax through Newegg, probably do too with Amazon, but the base price is the same, so cheaper at Amazon. Is it the same board, though?

 

[mfenn]

If it is really the same board as Foxconn H61AP LGA 1155 Intel H61 ATX Intel Motherboard at Newegg, it might be cheaper off Amazon because Newegg charges shipping and Amazon doesn't. I have to pay tax through Newegg, probably do too with Amazon, but the base price is the same, so cheaper at Amazon. Is it the same board, though?

Yes, it is most likely the same board (like 99% likely). The part number, picture, and socket all line up. The only discrepancy is the chipset in the description, which is probably just an error on Amazon's part.

I don't see how you can say it is cheaper at Amazon, when it costs $65 there. Newegg has it for $55 + $8 shipping = $63. Granted, it's only a $2 difference, but Newegg still wins.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Damn, the anandtech product redirect doesn't work, typical. :\

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you linked the Asus P8B75-V.

Um, I assume maybe you were being facetious with the first statement, suggesting that yes, I'm giving up a lot with that cheaper board.

Future upgrade potential does mean a lot to me. I don't upgrade typically every two years, although I have once, maybe quicker than that when I moved up from my Epox 8K7A.

Yep, that was the P8B75-V, the ATX model...

No, I was being serious, pointing out what you don't get with the H61 board. You get a lot more upgrade potential with PCIe as most newer technology expansion cards use it. I'm sorry if that came over wrong...

 

[Muse]

Yes, it is most likely the same board (like 99% likely). The part number, picture, and socket all line up. The only discrepancy is the chipset in the description, which is probably just an error on Amazon's part.

I don't see how you can say it is cheaper at Amazon, when it costs $65 there. Newegg has it for $55 + $8 shipping = $63. Granted, it's only a $2 difference, but Newegg still wins.

Um, I was (I think) looking at Foxconn H61AP Intel H57 DDR3 1066 LGA 1155 Motherboards at Amazon which is showing at $54.99. Are we looking at the same page/mobo?

http://www.amazon.com/Foxconn-H61AP-Intel-DDR3-Motherboards/dp/B007QXLVCA/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1356017521&sr=1-1&keywords=Foxconn+H61AP