Santorum backs nullifying existing gay marriages

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/03/MN3Q1N9EV9.DTL&tsp=1

There are 18,000 married gay and lesbian couples in California and at least 131,000 nationwide according to the 2010 census, conducted before New York state legalized same-sex marriage in July.

Rick Santorum says he'll try to unmarry all of them if he's elected president.

Once the U.S. Constitution is amended to prohibit same-gender marriages, "their marriage would be invalid," the former Pennsylvania senator said Dec. 30 in an NBC News interview.

"We can't have 50 different marriage laws in this country," he said. "You have to have one marriage law."

The comments didn't attract nearly as much attention as Santorum's recent invocation of his Catholic faith to denounce government support for birth control, prenatal testing and resource conservation - which, in the last case, he attributed to President Obama's "phony theology."

But his declared intention to nullify past as well as future same-sex marriages has reinforced his position to the right of the other Republican contenders, even though each of them has also voiced fervent support for traditional unions.

Mitt Romney, who was governor of Massachusetts when the state's high court became the first in the nation to declare a right to same-sex marriage in 2003, backs a constitutional amendment to outlaw such marriages in the future, but says he'd leave currently wedded couples alone. Newt Gingrich also wants an amendment but hasn't said whether it would be retroactive.

Ron Paul opposes same-sex marriage but wants the federal government to stay out of it - no federal benefits for gay and lesbian couples, no federal court authority to overturn state laws like California's Proposition 8 and no constitutional amendments overriding a state's prerogative to decide which of its residents can marry.

'Bigoted, shameful'

Santorum's proposal for constitutionally mandated divorces would affect couples like Stuart Gaffney and John Lewis of San Francisco, longtime partners who wed in June 2008, five months before Prop. 8 banned same-sex marriage. The couple later helped to found an organization called Marriage Equality USA.

"It's with profound sadness that I contemplate somebody running for the highest office in the land on a platform of taking away anyone's marriage," Gaffney said Friday.

Fred Karger, a longtime Republican political consultant and gay-rights activist who is also running for president and will be on the Republican primary ballot in California, said Santorum's comments on marriage were "the most destructive of any Republican candidate by far, bigoted, shameful."

Santorum's stance was endorsed by the Family Research Council, which was involved in an unsuccessful attempt to win passage of a constitutional amendment during George W. Bush's presidency.

"Same-sex marriage is an oxymoron" because marriage can only be a male-female relationship, said the council's Peter Sprigg. If the Constitution is amended to include that definition, he said, states that had recognized same-sex marriages would have to convert those relationships to civil unions.

Santorum's position is noteworthy because laws revoking individual rights are usually drafted, or interpreted by the courts, to apply only to future conduct.

The issue arose in California when the state Supreme Court upheld Prop. 8, which amended the state Constitution to prohibit same-sex marriage. The measure declared that only marriage between a man and a woman would be ''valid or recognized" in California. Its sponsors argued that the language barred the state from "recognizing" 18,000 marriages of same-sex couples who had wed in the months before Prop. 8 passed in November 2008.

But the court said Prop. 8 did not clearly inform voters that it would invalidate existing marriages. Therefore, the justices said, the 18,000 couples were entitled to rely on the rights they had gained in the court's May 2008 ruling, which briefly legalized same-sex marriage in the state.

That doesn't rule out the possibility of a U.S. constitutional amendment like the one Santorum favors, which would nullify existing same-sex marriages.

"You'd have to word it so it was perfectly clear," said Jesse Choper, a UC Berkeley law professor who submitted arguments to the state's high court against the retroactive application of Prop. 8. The amendment would have to declare that "marriages that were once valid are no longer valid," he said.

Santorum, who once practiced law, hasn't said how he would draft a constitutional amendment - or how he could get one passed even while opinion polls suggest increasing public acceptance of same-sex marriage.

"Just because public opinion says something doesn't mean it's right," he said in the NBC interview. "I'm sure there were times in areas of this country when people said blacks were less than human."

A constitutional amendment requires approval by two-thirds of each house of Congress and three-fourths of the states. Even when Republicans controlled both houses in 2004, the Bush-endorsed marriage amendment failed to pass either chamber, with a handful of states'-rights Republicans joining Democratic opponents.

But Sprigg, of the Family Research Council, said the political climate could change - and the prospects of a constitutional amendment increase - if the courts spoke first.

"If you were to have some sort of sweeping decision ... which would essentially impose same-sex marriage on every state in the country," he said, "I think that would perhaps create a huge backlash."

But oh, I forgot... social conservatives would never try to impose their will via government. /sarcasm :rolleyes:

Mr. Santorum, without due respect, you can take your idiotic views and shove them up your ass. I would rather die than live under your interpretation of the Bible.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/03/MN3Q1N9EV9.DTL&tsp=1



But oh, I forgot... social conservatives would never try to impose their will via government. /sarcasm :rolleyes:

Mr. Santorum, you can take your idiotic views and shove them up your ass. I would rather die than live under your interpretation of the Bible.
I feel for ya man but this is your GOP. They will probably not change in our lifetime. Even once gay rights are added to the list of constitutionally protected classes, and they will be, the GOP will still be fighting tooth and nail to repeal that ammendment long after you and I are gone.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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I feel for ya man but this is your GOP. They will probably not change in our lifetime. Even once gay rights are added to the list of constitutionally protected classes, and they will be, the GOP will still be fighting tooth and nail to repeal that ammendment long after you and I are gone.

Well, this is a relatively small part of the GOP. Thankfully there are more reasonable members of the GOP and thankfully they're much more numerous.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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32,985
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Well, this is a relatively small part of the GOP. Thankfully there are more reasonable members of the GOP and thankfully they're much more numerous.
And thankfully they are becoming fewer and fewer with each passing day.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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I assume you mean that the small part is becoming smaller and not the bigger part?
Yes, you assume correctly, although I am not certain how small the anti-gay part really is at this point. Still a lot of religious people out there.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/03/MN3Q1N9EV9.DTL&tsp=1



But oh, I forgot... social conservatives would never try to impose their will via government. /sarcasm :rolleyes:

Really no different than having social liberals imposing their will via government. And yes, forcing people to accept something they find unacceptable is imposing of will via government.

Something many people do not want to understand is that governments force morality based laws on people all the time. A vast horde of laws are morality based.

That said, I do agree we need national rules on civil unions/marriage. For example, if two married women from Maryland travel through Pennsylvania, they stop being married while in Pennsylvania, since PA does not recognize their style of marriage. IMO, marriage must be portable across state lines.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,356
32,985
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Really no different than having social liberals imposing their will via government. And yes, forcing people to accept something they find unacceptable is imposing of will via government.

Something many people do not want to understand is that governments force morality based laws on people all the time. A vast horde of laws are morality based.

That said, I do agree we need national rules on civil unions/marriage. For example, if two married women from Maryland travel through Pennsylvania, they stop being married while in Pennsylvania, since PA does not recognize their style of marriage. IMO, marriage must be portable across state lines.
It may be no different, but someone pushing these types of things forfeits their credibility when attacking the other side for doing such things.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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Really no different than having social liberals imposing their will via government. And yes, forcing people to accept something they find unacceptable is imposing of will via government.

It's quite a bit different to nullify (make illegal) something that a couple already has than to make something legal that few have.

It is also a very liberal thing to do to make things illegal, not a very conservative thing. Conservatives should be enhancing liberty, not taking liberty away.

Something many people do not want to understand is that governments force morality based laws on people all the time. A vast horde of laws are morality based.

Since when does that make it acceptable? Just because something happens a lot doesn't make it right.

That said, I do agree we need national rules on civil unions/marriage. For example, if two married women from Maryland travel through Pennsylvania, they stop being married while in Pennsylvania, since PA does not recognize their style of marriage. IMO, marriage must be portable across state lines.

What, exactly, do you think a good national rule on civil unions and marriage would be?
 
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momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
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"Just because public opinion says something doesn't mean it's right," he said in the NBC interview. "I'm sure there were times in areas of this country when people said blacks were less than human."

There was once a time when gays weren't allowed to enter into a contract...

This guy is such a joke, please go away and let Dr. Paul have the nomination.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,765
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But oh, I forgot... social conservatives would never try to impose their will via government. /sarcasm :rolleyes:

The man is a religious Neocon. Folks have to be stupid (they are) to fall for the notion that he wants government smaller and out of people's lives. He wants it the way Bush did, which is to expand it his own way.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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It's quite a bit different to nullify (make illegal) something that a couple already has than to make something legal that few have.

It is also a very liberal thing to do to make things illegal, not a very conservative thing. Conservatives should be enhancing liberty, not taking liberty away.

I more or less agree.

Since when does that make it acceptable? Just because something happens a lot doesn't make it right.

All societies need morality based laws in order to survive as a society. We need a common moral base to unite us as a people. It is just how things work. Why can't people have sex on the sidewalk (provided they are not blocking the sidewalk)? Why can't people walk around town naked?

Morality based laws have always existed and always will...humans need them. We are just built that way.


What, exactly, do you think a good national rule on civil unions and marriage would be?

I think government should only issue civil unions and allow religions to keep marriage. Hetero, homo, polygamist, cross-species, whatever the people want, civil unions should be codified into law. Basically, do a find replace of marriage with civil union in the books...then make alterations as needed to create the new types of unions.

Religions can hand out marriage certificates (and also do civil unions if they meet the requirements - like they do today with marriages). The government hands out civil union contracts. A person who wants to be married can do so (and then be both married and in a civil union).

Basically, fully divorce the government from marriage altogether. Then make it a federal rule, so civil unions are portable across state lines.

I see no reason not to create the new rights for new types of civil unions, but I also see no reason for the government to continue to meddle in what is obviously a religious institution (in the US - in other countries things are likely to be different).
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Well, this is a relatively small part of the GOP. Thankfully there are more reasonable members of the GOP and thankfully they're much more numerous.
This is true. And I believe Romney has essentially the same view on gay marriage as Obama - neutral to supportive, but not willing to take the political hit to admit it. Should it be politically neutral or advantageous to him, I suspect he'll flip. (Obligatory joke: A conservative, a liberal and a moderate walk into a bar. The bartender says "Hi, Mitt!")

I do give Santorum points for two things. I agree we need a national marriage policy, although I believe it should be that government has NO say in whom one marries as long as they are of age and able to give consent. I believe that basic human rights should be the same everywhere in our country. And he is a leader; even when it's not to his political advantage, he has the courage of his convictions. If only those with more reasonable attitudes displayed the same courage, willing to take political hits to actually lead and make cogent arguments for freedom and basic human rights, this would be a non-issue by now.

No government with the power to control whom one can marry, whether or not it uses it against you personally, can ever be considered small or limited. Those whose world view includes smaller and/or limited federal government should be willing to make this point. Otherwise they simply want a large and powerful federal government that does different things. EDIT: Jaskalas beat me to it.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
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All societies need morality based laws in order to survive as a society. We need a common moral base to unite us as a people. It is just how things work. Why can't people have sex on the sidewalk (provided they are not blocking the sidewalk)? Why can't people walk around town naked?

Morality based laws have always existed and always will...humans need them. We are just built that way.

Yes, the Constitution is that moral base. I find nothing Constitutional about a federal amendment regarding marriage or civil unions, particularly one that overrides the states.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
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It's quite a bit different to nullify (make illegal) something that a couple already has than to make something legal that few have.

It is also a very liberal thing to do to make things illegal, not a very conservative thing. Conservatives should be enhancing liberty, not taking liberty away.



Since when does that make it acceptable? Just because something happens a lot doesn't make it right.



What, exactly, do you think a good national rule on civil unions and marriage would be?

Across state lines should be full faith and credit.

.
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
2,814
0
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Really no different than having social liberals imposing their will via government. And yes, forcing people to accept something they find unacceptable is imposing of will via government.

No one is forcing anyone to 'accept' gay marriage. You are not forced to like gays, support gays or attend a gay marriage. You do not have to stand up and proclaim the fact that you accept gay marriage else there will be penalties.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Yes, the Constitution is that moral base. I find nothing Constitutional about a federal amendment regarding marriage or civil unions, particularly one that overrides the states.

There is much more to the US than just the Constitution. Did you know much of our US Law is based on precident from English Common Law, for example?

Do you think it is good that a gay married couple from Maryland suddenly becomes unmarried when they travel through Pennsylvania? This really is a big deal.

Lets say they get into a car accident in PA and are rushed to a local hospital, where one of the two is in very critical condition. Unless each of them have a medical power of attorney for the other, they have no rights at all to determine medical care for the other person. Hetero married couples do have this right. In fact, the suddenly non-spouse can be kicked out of the room since he/she is not immedate family - suddenly not being married does this.

Let us then assume the critically injured person's family hates the other person (who is suddenly not married anymore) and decides to have this mere friend removed from the hospital and given no say in any care. The critically injured person dies and the family also denies access to the funeral (held in PA). The former spouse has no recourse at all...no rights.


The fed should be both out of the marriage business and into only civil unions and should control these contracts. They must be interstate portable.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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No one is forcing anyone to 'accept' gay marriage. You are not forced to like gays, support gays or attend a gay marriage. You do not have to stand up and proclaim the fact that you accept gay marriage else there will be penalties.

You are being silly. Stop pretending that liking something is the same as accepting something. You do not have to like something that is legal, but you must accept it.

The two words are only slightly related.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
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Well, this is a relatively small part of the GOP. Thankfully there are more reasonable members of the GOP and thankfully they're much more numerous.

If this is a small part of the GOP, how is Santorum winning primaries? Fact is that the party if full of religious fascists who would be all to happy to put a Christian theocracy in place.

We need a new mainstream limited government party that actually represents the average voter, socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Nutters like Santorum basically give the election to the Democrats.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
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One's acceptance (or lack of) of a law or other government action is relevant only when it affects them.

Since no one's marriage or civil union affects anyone aside from those in it, why should anyone's acceptance matter?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
All societies need morality based laws in order to survive as a society. We need a common moral base to unite us as a people. It is just how things work. Why can't people have sex on the sidewalk (provided they are not blocking the sidewalk)? Why can't people walk around town naked?

If everyone in some town or state wants to legalize public sex why should you, living 1000 miles away, be able to tell them no?

If the majority thinks morality means converting the country to Islam are you going to go along with it?

Morality based laws have always existed and always will...humans need them. We are just built that way.

That's your opinion. And it's wrong.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
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Yes, the Constitution is that moral base. I find nothing Constitutional about a federal amendment regarding marriage or civil unions, particularly one that overrides the states.



Yes, the Constitution is that moral base. I find nothing Constitutional about a federal amendment regarding ending slavery, particularly one that overrides the states.