sandusky: guilty until proven innocent?

[Platypus]

I kind of hoped this would bring down the mentality that sports players are somehow above everything and are heavily protected but I know that sports > anything else to a lot of people.

 

[ThePresence]

How are people still bringing sports into the conversation? This is not about sports, dammit. It's about humanity, or the lack thereof. I'm a huge sports fan, but I seriously don't understand how sports has anything to do with this at this point.

 

[Platypus]

How are people still bringing sports into the conversation? This is not about sports, dammit. It's about humanity, or the lack thereof. I'm a huge sports fan, but I seriously don't understand how sports has anything to do with this at this point.

Err.. because of his status and his friends in the sports department this abuse was able to continue for quite some time affecting tons more children. If the sports program wasn't such holy ground he would have been caught way earlier and way less children would be ruined for life.

Said another way, he was protected because of the importance of the sporting program. How do you NOT understand that? A lot of these abuses occurred in sporting facilities on campus...

 

[Jaskalas]

Maybe I've watched too much Law and Order, but it seems like Sandusky isn't going to get in (much) trouble? It's a few people with shaky stories testifying that Sandusky groped them and nothing else really?

what am I missing?

Don't need a video catching him in the act before you can convict someone of something.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

How are people still bringing sports into the conversation? This is not about sports, dammit. It's about humanity, or the lack thereof. I'm a huge sports fan, but I seriously don't understand how sports has anything to do with this at this point.

In many ways Penn State's success as a university (in terms of growth of student body, growth of wealth, growth of prestige) is due to the success of its football program. The success of its football program was largely due to the late Joe Paterno, who was not just a great coach, but a straight shooter who ran a clean program when other schools' football programs were successful because they were dirty. State College, PA basically does not exist without PSU, and PSU is likely not a Tier 1 without its football team. More so at PSU than any other university, really, football meant money, prestige, and power.

If, as some have alleged, the powers that be at PSU tried to keep a child predator hidden lest his activities undermine PSU football, then PSU suffers a dramatic fall from grace.

I'm surprised Sandusky is even still alive. This indicates to me that what happened in State College is more the result of incompetence and indifference than malevolence.

 

[Paul98]

This "innocent until proven guilty" is only in the eyes of the law.

If I see someone walk up to someone out of no where and kill them for no reason, I know the person is guilty, I don't need a court to tell me so. I don't care what the court finds I know this person is a murderer and is guilty. Even if the court thinks he is innocent until it's proven, in reality he is guilty of murder. If the court doesn't find him guilty that doesn't change the fact he is guilty of murder.

 

[GrumpyMan]

This "innocent until proven guilty" is only in the eyes of the law.

If I see someone walk up to someone out of no where and kill them for no reason, I know the person is guilty, I don't need a court to tell me so. I don't care what the court finds I know this person is a murderer and is guilty. Even if the court thinks he is innocent until it's proven, in reality he is guilty of murder. If the court doesn't find him guilty that doesn't change the fact he is guilty of murder.

Does this hold true if you were in the military in a war, would you think the same?

 

[ThePresence]

Err.. because of his status and his friends in the sports department this abuse was able to continue for quite some time affecting tons more children. If the sports program wasn't such holy ground he would have been caught way earlier and way less children would be ruined for life.

Said another way, he was protected because of the importance of the sporting program. How do you NOT understand that? A lot of these abuses occurred in sporting facilities on campus...

I understand all of that. I did not express my point correctly.
We all know it was sports that enabled this. He was a large part of Penn State Football, etc.
But people are acting as if he's being defended by sports fans. I do not believe that there is anyone who is so blinded by their love of a sports team to not see past it in a case like this. At this point, we can take sports out of the conversation. He was enabled by PEOPLE running a sports program.

 

[Jeffg010]

I understand all of that. I did not express my point correctly.
We all know it was sports that enabled this. He was a large part of Penn State Football, etc.
But people are acting as if he's being defended by sports fans. I do not believe that there is anyone who is so blinded by their love of a sports team to not see past it in a case like this. At this point, we can take sports out of the conversation. He was enabled by PEOPLE running a sports program.

I would not say anyone is defending Sandusky but they sure have defended JoPa like he was god.

 

[Platypus]

I understand all of that. I did not express my point correctly.
We all know it was sports that enabled this. He was a large part of Penn State Football, etc.
But people are acting as if he's being defended by sports fans. I do not believe that there is anyone who is so blinded by their love of a sports team to not see past it in a case like this. At this point, we can take sports out of the conversation. He was enabled by PEOPLE running a sports program.

That makes a lot more sense than your previous statement. I'm sure somewhere there are still rabid sports fans who defend him but yes that is the vast minority.

I just was expressing that I hope this scandal sort of takes down the seemingly invincible shield that sports programs have at schools to bend and break the rules in the name of being successful. Yes at the end of the day people running a sports program who allegedly covered this up are to blame for this.. but if this were just a straight up teacher that had no ties to sports he'd have been crucified long ago. My comment about sports > everything applies to how student athletes and coaches are seemingly completely above the rules that 'normal' people are forced to follow and how I think that paradigm is fucking bullshit.

 

[D1gger]

I actually just graduated from PSU and this Sandusky thing was huge. everyone from psu has been calling for his hanging from even before the trial began. I chose to form no opinion on the matter or on the matter of JoePa's involvement (*everyone* at psu is pro-JoePa, everyone else is against it seems)

And now, the trial is going on and from what I've read (which I will admit is limited), things look favorably towards Sandusky? all of the witnesses have changed their stories and also messed up dates drastically? and now McQueary's dad also can't get his story straight (doesn't even remember testifying to the grand jury)?

And the victims' testimonies have basically said Sandusky would force them to hang out with them and act inappropriate sometimes (touching thighs, groping in the water)



Maybe I've watched too much Law and Order, but it seems like Sandusky isn't going to get in (much) trouble? It's a few people with shaky stories testifying that Sandusky groped them and nothing else really?

what am I missing?

McQueary's Dad didn't testify at the grand jury, he only testified at a hearing about charges against the other top Penn State officials, Curly and Schultz.

Ronald Schreffler, a former Penn State police investigator who now works for the Department of Homeland Security, said he was among officers hiding in the woman's home when she confronted Sandusky about her suspicions regarding alleged inappropriate behavior with her son, identified as Alleged Victim 6. He testified he heard Sandusky tell her: "I wish I could ask forgiveness. I know I can't get it from you. I wish I were dead."

Link

And there has been a lot of testimony that is far more damaging than saying he only groped them.

The 25-year-old man, identified in the indictment as "Victim 10," said Sandusky performed oral sex on him "and vice versa" in the Sandusky home in 1998, when he was in the seventh grade.

"He said if I told anyone, I would never see my family again," the man said. Sandusky then apologized and said "he loved me," the man said, adding that he remained silent about incidents until last year "because I was scared, I was ashamed (and) I was embarrassed."

Link

 

[Paul98]

Does this hold true if you were in the military in a war, would you think the same?

Yep, you walk up out of no where and kill some one for no reason you clearly are a murderer.

But I think you totally missed the point of the post.

 

[NeoV]

if you are even remotely following this case, making statements like "it's going reasonably well" for Sandusky are nothing short of moronic.

Perhaps the article you read about the trial was written by a Sandusky supporter, but holy crap it's terrible.

One of the victims, when asked why he gave a more detailed account that he had previously done, explained how, while undergoing extensive counseling, more details of the terrible event that took place in his life, that he tried to shut out of his thoughts forever, he now remembers.

Next question!

He's going down for this, period. Anything short of that would be a travesty of justice.

 

[sixone]

Err.. because of his status and his friends in the sports department this abuse was able to continue for quite some time affecting tons more children. If the sports program wasn't such holy ground he would have been caught way earlier and way less children would be ruined for life.

Said another way, he was protected because of the importance of the sporting program. How do you NOT understand that? A lot of these abuses occurred in sporting facilities on campus...

If this had happened in a non-sports venue, the outcome almost certainly would have been the same. People just don't want to get involved when other people are being harmed.

It's a societal problem, not a sports problem.

 

[edro]

I think the OP is trying to say that since most of the witnesses have inconsistent stories, he is likely to get off.

I don't think anyone really thinks he is 100% innocent, but defense lawyers are pretty damn good and creating reasonable doubt.

 

[Ns1]

I think the OP is trying to say that since most of the witnesses have inconsistent stories, he is likely to get off.

They're pretty consistent.

hand on thigh, oral sex, gifts.

 

[Platypus]

If this had happened in a non-sports venue, the outcome almost certainly would have been the same. People just don't want to get involved when other people are being harmed.

It's a societal problem, not a sports problem.

Completely disagree here, the gravity of this situation is 100% related to not wanting to bring scorn to the successful sports program. Look at how many teachers get popped on the daily for having sex with students.

 

[preslove]

In many ways Penn State's success as a university (in terms of growth of student body, growth of wealth, growth of prestige) is due to the success of its football program. The success of its football program was largely due to the late Joe Paterno, who was not just a great coach, but a straight shooter who ran a clean program when other schools' football programs were successful because they were dirty. State College, PA basically does not exist without PSU, and PSU is likely not a Tier 1 without its football team. More so at PSU than any other university, really, football meant money, prestige, and power.

If, as some have alleged, the powers that be at PSU tried to keep a child predator hidden lest his activities undermine PSU football, then PSU suffers a dramatic fall from grace.

I'm surprised Sandusky is even still alive. This indicates to me that what happened in State College is more the result of incompetence and indifference than malevolence.

Pretty much this. Of course, indifference to child molestation is an unforgivable sin.

 

[preslove]

If this had happened in a non-sports venue, the outcome almost certainly would have been the same. People just don't want to get involved when other people are being harmed.

It's a societal problem, not a sports problem.

Molestation happens a lot, and always has. It just gets reported differently by different organizations. If this had been happening in the Penn St. dance program, you better believe the perpetrator would have been arrested.

It used to happen all the time and was never reported because victims were afraid to accuse their abusers. Then laws were passed to require public service workers to report child (and other types) of abuse.

This is not a "societal problem," it's a clear case of corrupt public officials who didn't want to sully the brand of their football focused organization.

 

[Chess]

If you really think Sandusky "isn't going to get in (much) trouble" then I have a bridge to sell you in London.

I agree.....

How about when you have kids that I molest them and tell me if you like it....


Its fucking disgusting and the guy should be hung by his nuts...


OH BTW HAI Sp33d :wub:

 

[TheVrolok]

I think I'm going to take a break from keeping up with the Sandusky trial and watch a great piece of American film, Avatar.

 

[sixone]

Completely disagree here, the gravity of this situation is 100% related to not wanting to bring scorn to the successful sports program. Look at how many teachers get popped on the daily for having sex with students.

Why is it that you think that everyone who knew about each of those situations went right to the cops? Just because it's not in the news doesn't mean no one's been trying to cover for these teachers and their schools.

Look at the thread on doping, look at any thread here remotely related to the Catholic Church. Look at the thread about Comcast not wanting to get between its customers and the MPAA/RIAA/anyone else. Look at any thread about infidelity - "butt out, don't get involved, MYOB."

This attitude pervades almost every aspect of society. It's just more sensational when it's such a revered sports program.

 

[edro]

Ever see those Dateline specials where they put people in intense situations and get their reactions on camera?

Most people would rather not get involved. It's human nature.

Everyone knows what the right thing is, and it is easy to say what you would have done, but you honestly DONT know what you would have done in any of these situations.

It's over now. He was finally caught and will pay the price.

 

[yllus]

I actually think that laws should be reformed so that the names of those being put on trial should be protected from being written in the media until they are actually found guilty.

On the facts of this actual case it seems incredibly likely that Mr. Sandusky is guilty of all of the things he's been accused of.

 

[HendrixFan]

Exactly they some how got 10 accusers, Mike McQueary and that janitor to making all it up.

And Schultz kept a file of all these things, then lied under oath about it, just to further push the conspiracy...