Samsung to create 5ms LCDs?!?!

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: gtx4u
BTW I own a 150 dollar G500 21" trinitron, it does have 0ms cause iz a CRT and it doesn't show any ghosting at all, cause thaz how they work and I'm sure a CRT's contrast ratio is better than an LCD anyday, not to mention the incredible resolution it can give off.

No, it does not have 0ms. It has a response time of something in the microseconds, but not zero. You can see this with your own eyes in one of the DirectX tests.

Prototypes are a start, but that doesn't mean anything about mass-production. How do you know the prototype wasn't made by some poor guy hooking up a billion pixels by hand? Some of it was not made by machine. OLEDs need special sealing to prevent elements from killing the organic materials inside. No idea how they're going to overcome that high voltage either. I have not heard such issues with SEDs and I believe they are very near at the point of mass production, quoting Toshiba's CEO that said sometime in 2006 I believe. At least I have heard a time frame about SEDs, but no such thing about OLEDs.

A long time ago there was a prototype of a 72" LCD by Samsung. I haven't seen that in mass production lately. And that was months ago.

Originally posted by: gtx4u
My G500 is pretty good at geometry and convergence, and if something does go wrong there is always the GEOMERY and CONVERGENCE buttons for me to change it, and my CRT running at 80Hz on all games and movies, never flickers... it only flickers when you put a fan next to the moniter to disrupt the Tube's signals, which is something most ignorant idiots don't realize and complains.

CRTs flicker every 16.6ms if you're at 60 Hz or 11.76ms. if at 85 Hz. This is 100% fact. It has nothing to do with putting a fan up to your tube. It causes a lot of people eyestrain after elongated periods of time.

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: gtx4u
BTW I own a 150 dollar G500 21" trinitron, it does have 0ms cause iz a CRT and it doesn't show any ghosting at all, cause thaz how they work and I'm sure a CRT's contrast ratio is better than an LCD anyday, not to mention the incredible resolution it can give off.

No, it does not have 0ms. It has a response time of something in the microseconds, but not zero. You can see this with your own eyes in one of the DirectX tests.

Prototypes are a start, but that doesn't mean anything about mass-production. How do you know the prototype wasn't made by some poor guy hooking up a billion pixels by hand? Some of it was not made by machine. OLEDs need special sealing to prevent elements from killing the organic materials inside. No idea how they're going to overcome that high voltage either. I have not heard such issues with SEDs and I believe they are very near at the point of mass production, quoting Toshiba's CEO that said sometime in 2006 I believe. At least I have heard a time frame about SEDs, but no such thing about OLEDs.

A long time ago there was a prototype of a 72" LCD by Samsung. I haven't seen that in mass production lately. And that was months ago.

Originally posted by: gtx4u
My G500 is pretty good at geometry and convergence, and if something does go wrong there is always the GEOMERY and CONVERGENCE buttons for me to change it, and my CRT running at 80Hz on all games and movies, never flickers... it only flickers when you put a fan next to the moniter to disrupt the Tube's signals, which is something most ignorant idiots don't realize and complains.

CRTs flicker every 16.6ms if you're at 60 Hz or 11.76ms. if at 85 Hz. This is 100% fact. It has nothing to do with putting a fan up to your tube. It causes a lot of people eyestrain after elongated periods of time.

I've seen a 16ms LCD in my school, I've tried to open up a window and drag it's contents from Bottom left corner to top right corner at a medium rate, there is so much ghosting/ unwanted motion blur I can't read the words inside that windows box while it was moving, I can't imagine how bad games will look, But on my CRT that will never happen, so I'll consider anything above 6ms to be inferior.

If ur theory on CRT causing eye pains correct, then explain why I can play 4 hours of halo and 5 hours of CS:S and 3 hours starcraft running at 80hz with out eye pains? Oh wait ur wrong!...

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: gtx4u
If ur theory on CRT causing eye pains correct, then explain why I can play 4 hours of halo and 5 hours of CS:S and 3 hours starcraft running at 80hz with out eye pains? Oh wait ur wrong!...

Wow, have you had any biology classes, genetics, anything?! Did it ever occur you may be different than someone else?

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: gtx4u
BTW I own a 150 dollar G500 21" trinitron, it does have 0ms cause iz a CRT and it doesn't show any ghosting at all, cause thaz how they work and I'm sure a CRT's contrast ratio is better than an LCD anyday, not to mention the incredible resolution it can give off.

No, it does not have 0ms. It has a response time of something in the microseconds, but not zero. You can see this with your own eyes in one of the DirectX tests.

Prototypes are a start, but that doesn't mean anything about mass-production. How do you know the prototype wasn't made by some poor guy hooking up a billion pixels by hand? Some of it was not made by machine. OLEDs need special sealing to prevent elements from killing the organic materials inside. No idea how they're going to overcome that high voltage either. I have not heard such issues with SEDs and I believe they are very near at the point of mass production, quoting Toshiba's CEO that said sometime in 2006 I believe. At least I have heard a time frame about SEDs, but no such thing about OLEDs.

A long time ago there was a prototype of a 72" LCD by Samsung. I haven't seen that in mass production lately. And that was months ago.

Originally posted by: gtx4u
My G500 is pretty good at geometry and convergence, and if something does go wrong there is always the GEOMERY and CONVERGENCE buttons for me to change it, and my CRT running at 80Hz on all games and movies, never flickers... it only flickers when you put a fan next to the moniter to disrupt the Tube's signals, which is something most ignorant idiots don't realize and complains.

CRTs flicker every 16.6ms if you're at 60 Hz or 11.76ms. if at 85 Hz. This is 100% fact. It has nothing to do with putting a fan up to your tube. It causes a lot of people eyestrain after elongated periods of time.

OLED prototype is better than nothing, do you want to use an LCD with 800:1 contrast ratio, and 8ms for the rest of ur life? considering the fact that human eyes can see above 6000:1 contrast ratio and 0ms.

And I think the 72" LCD prototype wasn't released because not alot of people would buy it, and it would've been ultra expensive.

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: gtx4u
If ur theory on CRT causing eye pains correct, then explain why I can play 4 hours of halo and 5 hours of CS:S and 3 hours starcraft running at 80hz with out eye pains? Oh wait ur wrong!...

Wow, have you had any biology classes, genetics, anything?! Did it ever occur you may be different than someone else?

Not my fault you don't eat right....

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: gtx4u
Not my fault you don't eat right....

Obviously you don't know what the hell you're talking about (evidently from insisting "16ms." on an ad means something, and you only see flicker when you put a fan to a CRT). Some people have green eyes, some people have blue eyes. It doesn't matter what they eat. It's called genetics. This has stooped so low it would make baby Jesus cry, so I'll stop replying here. It's absolutely worthless. Besides, what does "many people get eye strain from CRTs" have to do with what I eat? The arguments you've posted clearly emit your lack of reading comprehension. I said right there OLED prototypes were a good start.

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: gtx4u
Not my fault you don't eat right....

Obviously you don't know what the hell you're talking about (evidently from insisting "16ms." on an ad means something, and you only see flicker when you put a fan to a CRT). Some people have green eyes, some people have blue eyes. It doesn't matter what they eat. It's called genetics. This has stooped so low it would make baby Jesus cry, so I'll stop replying here. It's absolutely worthless. Besides, what does "many people get eye strain from CRTs" have to do with what I eat?

Put a fan near or close to a CRT moniter and see what happens.

16ms is what the LCD is my school has, I looked at the model number and went to the manufactuer's site to see it's specs cause I wanted to find out why it was ghosting so bad.

As for genentics, I wasn't talking about that... , some people have eye problems because they don't eat enough nutrients to support it.

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: gtx4u
How do u mean by decent? with a response time of lower than 6ms? and good contrast ratio? Don't forget human eyes can see above 6000:1 contrast ratio or higher, And at least 19 inch? Show me link.

I've seen the difference between LCD and CRT and all I can say is CRT is better for gaming/movies in terms of price/performance ratio, but only cons is that it cosumes bit more power and it's heavy, but hey what are friends's hands for, unless u don't have any friends....

I'd consider decent in LCD terms ~12ms. (at lowest point of response), and 500:1 contrast ratio.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824116366

Problem is contrast ratio means little. Black level could be 5 cd/m² and white 2500 cd/m² and contrast ratio is 500:1. Similarly, black level could be 50 cd/m² and white 25000 cd/m².

No 17/19" LCDs exist that can keep up at a 6ms. response time (at ANY level within 0-255). And they won't for a while until this LCD the OP is talking about materializes.

Those are far from the only cons. CRTs cannot have perfect geometry or convergence. They also must flicker (refresh) at a certain rate.

500:1 contrast ratio, 1280x1024 only, worst of all 12ms = no deal

 

[xtknight]

It hardly has to do with what you eat. It's because your eyes do not naturally look at flickering images (at least I hope not).

http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/01/1552234&tid=196&tid=191&tid=4
http://www.aoa.org/x1874.xml

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: xtknight
It hardly has to do with what you eat. It's because your eyes do not naturally look at flickering images (at least I hope not).

http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/01/1552234&tid=196&tid=191&tid=4
http://www.aoa.org/x1874.xml

lol, do u even know what is the main reason people need to get glasses? Do you think looking at LCD / CRT makes a difference wether or not u will have to get glasses?

I'll tell you, I've asked my eye doctor once, he told me it was a simple, adaptation, since most of us computer users and book readers tend to look at close range stuff no further than 4~5 feet away for a long period of time and only concentrating on that area of 4~5 feet, our eyes becomes super adaptive to that level of close range sight-seeing and ignores long-range sight seeing. And thus our eyes becomes weaker and weaker by the year and unable to focus on long range objects. Moniter flickering has nothing to do with this.

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: xtknight
It hardly has to do with what you eat. It's because your eyes do not naturally look at flickering images (at least I hope not).

http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/01/1552234&tid=196&tid=191&tid=4
http://www.aoa.org/x1874.xml

Also, it's a simple theory, rich-people tends to buy LCDs over CRT cause they think what ever the hell is more expensive is GOT to be better right? And rich people will most likely to buy contacts over glasses, cause they can afford it. That's why most of the LCD users don't wear glasses, but they are wearing contacts for all you know.

 

[fierydemise]

Originally posted by: xtknight
CRTs flicker every 16.6ms if you're at 60 Hz or 11.76ms. if at 85 Hz. This is 100% fact. It has nothing to do with putting a fan up to your tube. It causes a lot of people eyestrain after elongated periods of time.

If this is "100% fact" then how come I can't find it anywhere?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: fierydemise

Originally posted by: xtknight
CRTs flicker every 16.6ms if you're at 60 Hz or 11.76ms. if at 85 Hz. This is 100% fact. It has nothing to do with putting a fan up to your tube. It causes a lot of people eyestrain after elongated periods of time.

If this is "100% fact" then how come I can't find it anywhere?

Because you haven't searched very extensively.

http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/asmith/neuron.html

You may get strong 60 Hz (Hz = cycles/sec) interference if your connections are bad. This is because all your wires are like little antennae that pick up noise from the electrical activity in the room. Since the entire building (the entire country for that matter) is wired with 60 Hz current, your wires pick up a lot of that frequency. You can easily recognize it because 60 cycles/second means it repeats itself every 1/60th of a second (16.6 ms).

http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/dbuffer.html

Allan Replied: The nature of double-buffering is that the buffer swaps (must) occur during the monitor's vertical retrace. Assuming a 60Hz video refresh rate, this means that buffer swaps could happen, at most, every 1/60th of a second or every 16.66ms.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: gtx4u
I'll tell you, I've asked my eye doctor once, he told me it was a simple, adaptation, since most of us computer users and book readers tend to look at close range stuff no further than 4~5 feet away for a long period of time and only concentrating on that area of 4~5 feet, our eyes becomes super adaptive to that level of close range sight-seeing and ignores long-range sight seeing. And thus our eyes becomes weaker and weaker by the year and unable to focus on long range objects. Moniter flickering has nothing to do with this.

It has far from 'nothing' to do with it. I'm not talking about my visual acuity getting worse. I'm talking about pain and aches.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:Fpg...8.asp+monitor+flicker+eye+strain&hl=en

http://www.cnet.com.au/desktops/monitors/0,39029422,40001926,00.htm

http://www.vh.org/adult/patient/ophthalmology/computervisionsyndrome/

The redraw or refresh rate of many monitors is 60 Hz. This speed can cause a flicker that makes the screen appear to roll. The flicker stimulates the eye to accommodate or to refocus, tiring the visual system.

This is one of the main reasons I use an LCD, because it's much more comfortable on my eyes and neck for prolonged use, and so is it for a lot of people. Go ahead, start a thread and ask.

I agree CRTs have a better price/performance ratio, but they have their issues too.

 

[fierydemise]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: fierydemise

Originally posted by: xtknight
CRTs flicker every 16.6ms if you're at 60 Hz or 11.76ms. if at 85 Hz. This is 100% fact. It has nothing to do with putting a fan up to your tube. It causes a lot of people eyestrain after elongated periods of time.

If this is "100% fact" then how come I can't find it anywhere?

Because you haven't searched very extensively.

http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/asmith/neuron.html

You may get strong 60 Hz (Hz = cycles/sec) interference if your connections are bad. This is because all your wires are like little antennae that pick up noise from the electrical activity in the room. Since the entire building (the entire country for that matter) is wired with 60 Hz current, your wires pick up a lot of that frequency. You can easily recognize it because 60 cycles/second means it repeats itself every 1/60th of a second (16.6 ms).

http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/dbuffer.html

Allan Replied: The nature of double-buffering is that the buffer swaps (must) occur during the monitor's vertical retrace. Assuming a 60Hz video refresh rate, this means that buffer swaps could happen, at most, every 1/60th of a second or every 16.66ms.

THG disagrees

A measured rise time of 35 µs - that is, a response that's about 400 times faster than that of an average TFT

AND

Here we measure 825 µs, which remains beyond the capabilities of the best TFT panels.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: fierydemise
THG disagrees

A measured rise time of 35 µs - that is, a response that's about 400 times faster than that of an average TFT

AND

Here we measure 825 µs, which remains beyond the capabilities of the best TFT panels.

Refresh rate, not response time. The time of phosphor pixel decay on a CRT is indeed that low. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the interval at which the electron gun scans the whole screen, which is related to the flicker issue I was talking about. The CRT has a measured response time of almost 1 ms., further confirming a CRT's response time is not 0 ms. like gtx4u seems to claim.

Anyway I'm sick of arguing this and should have stopped a few posts ago...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While this (OP) is an interesting advancement in LCD technology, I still think SED and OLED will prevail (if they ever appear).

 

[rancherlee]

Just got my FIRST LCD last week and I spend 3-4 hours a day on the computer doing various stuff, and I have NO Eyestrain with the LCD which I DEFINATELY had with the CRT and I ran the CRT @ 80mhz. I noticed a Bit of Color loss (6 bit 19" LCD) and VERY VERY slight goasting (when there is black on white) on desktop and NONE in games that I can notice. For an Internet/gaming maching I find the LCD to be better than my CRT was IMO, If I STILL did Autocad it would be a differenent story.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: rancherlee
Just got my FIRST LCD last week and I spend 3-4 hours a day on the computer doing various stuff, and I have NO Eyestrain with the LCD which I DEFINATELY had with the CRT and I ran the CRT @ 80mhz. I noticed a Bit of Color loss (6 bit 19" LCD) and VERY VERY slight goasting (when there is black on white) on desktop and NONE in games that I can notice. For an Internet/gaming maching I find the LCD to be better than my CRT was IMO, If I STILL did Autocad it would be a differenent story.

:thumbsup:

I'd think Autocad would be better on an LCD because of perfect geometry?

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: fierydemise
THG disagrees

A measured rise time of 35 µs - that is, a response that's about 400 times faster than that of an average TFT

AND

Here we measure 825 µs, which remains beyond the capabilities of the best TFT panels.

Refresh rate, not response time. The time of phosphor pixel decay on a CRT is indeed that low. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the interval at which the electron gun scans the whole screen, which is related to the flicker issue I was talking about. The CRT has a measured response time of almost 1 ms., further confirming a CRT's response time is not 0 ms. like gtx4u seems to claim.

Anyway I'm sick of arguing this and should have stopped a few posts ago...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While this (OP) is an interesting advancement in LCD technology, I still think SED and OLED will prevail (if they ever appear).

lol 1ms > 4, 8, 12ms

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: gtx4u
lol 1ms > 4, 8, 12ms

If SED comes it will have the same 1 ms. phosphor decay time of a CRT so that's what I'm really looking forward to.

 

[zephyrprime]

If the panel doesn't use color filters, then it likely is a color strobing screen. The bad news is that such a screen would require 3 refreshes to refresh the screen just once. One refresh for each of the primary colors would be required. So, even if the screen is really 5ms (I doubt it) it would run at 3x5ms for an effective speed of 15ms. Also, such a screen would introduce a new form of intra-pixel ghosting. This would degrade the screen color accuracy.

On the plus side, such a screen could attain 3 times the resolution of existing panels for no additional cost and would have much higher energy efficiency. The lower power consumption might make the screen a good choice for laptops.

 

[klah]

Originally posted by: gtx4u

Yeah except that CRT users don't feel like paying 400 dollars for a small ass 17 inch LCD with a limited resolution of only 1280x1024

The Dell 2005fpw (20.1" 1680x1050) is under $400.

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: klah

Originally posted by: gtx4u

Yeah except that CRT users don't feel like paying 400 dollars for a small ass 17 inch LCD with a limited resolution of only 1280x1024

The Dell 2005fpw (20.1" 1680x1050) is under $400.

lol My 21" G500 only cost 140 dollars, my next display will be a 35~45" HDTV for gaming gonna save hard....