• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Samsung 840 dead.. What now?

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Nice to hear the problems are not that severe. But those charts are in logarithmic scale; it does appear to lose about half its performance. Other SSD vendors, firmware or controllers generally have quite static performance. They only degrade in performance with no overprovisioning and little spare space. I prefer 'honest' specifications. Like Intel which gave specs that were below that of a fresh drive. You always had some headroom. I like this kind of honest specifications.

But even Intel is joining the zero-write specification frenzy with its Sandforce-powered SSDs. It's a big shame Intel didn't develop their X25-M controller even further, when Intel had a head start and a much more sophisticated controller than most.

As you may know, the Intel controller used internal 256K SRAM buffering, while other SSDs including the Crucial M4 and Samsung 830 uses DRAM write-back. For Intel, the DRAM was only used to cache the mapping tables, not to act as write-back buffer for write requests from the host. This made Intel have far superior latency and IOps, while being also more reliable. It's just a shame that Intel didn't update their controller to join the SATA/600 generation of SSD controllers. They could have easily beaten all competition with reliable and fast SSDs. Awhile ago it appeared that Intel did invest R&D in updating their controller to SATA/600 and focussing on consistent performacne instead of general high performance. But I fear their move has come too late; today, Intel is little more than yet another Sandforce vendor. They used to be so much more in the past.
 
Nice to hear the problems are not that severe. But those charts are in logarithmic scale; it does appear to lose about half its performance. Other SSD vendors, firmware or controllers generally have quite static performance. They only degrade in performance with no overprovisioning and little spare space. I prefer 'honest' specifications. Like Intel which gave specs that were below that of a fresh drive. You always had some headroom. I like this kind of honest specifications.

The filled Vector gets around 26K IOPS on average at the end of the run while the empty one manages 32K IOPS, so it's not that much of a difference. Like I said, the filling alone makes a difference and that's the case with all SSDs (I haven't run the exact same test on other SSDs but our IO consistency tests with different OPs show the similar effect).

But even Intel is joining the zero-write specification frenzy with its Sandforce-powered SSDs. It's a big shame Intel didn't develop their X25-M controller even further, when Intel had a head start and a much more sophisticated controller than most.

Intel does have the DC S3700 with their custom SATA 6Gbps controller, but that's an enterprise drive. It's kind of sad that they aren't as aggressive in the consumer market but I'm not surprised, enterprise market is much more alluring with higher profits.
 
Still, Intel was offering a reliable SSD that had good IOps and a good track record. It was the first to introduce TRIM I believe, as well as NCQ that allowed high random read scores with higher queue depth. It also had extremely low write amplification, as long as you used enough overprovisioning.

They could have invested in an update to the controller for the consumer market, just for the marketing alone of being reliable and using its own controller which people expect from a quality brand like Intel. They could have capitalized on this, much the same way as GPU vendors used to compete in the high-end while everyone knew the big money was in the mainstream models. The top GPU series were often not profitable, yet it was very good marketing if you had the fastest GPU or scored well in the reviews. In other words: just for the PR alone I would have made the investments if it were up to me.

I'm interested in what kind of controllers we will see when SATA Express is introduced. Perhaps then Intel will play a significant role again with good native SATA Express -> NAND controller.
 
A lot of RAID "bashing" going on. I've been RAIDed for almost two years on this system and NEVER had a problem. Even in a power outage. (Maybe because I have a UPS backup.... smart ehh) You stand as much of a chance loosing one drive do to power spikes as you would a RAID config. A decent UPS can be had for about $100 and they last for years. I just replaced the battery on my SIX year old A.P.C. UPS a few months ago.
I can format, rebuild my array and be browsing right back here in less than 15 minutes. (Formatting takes the longest)
 
Sorry to post two months late in this thread, but I'm having the exact same issue the OP reports with my second Samsung 840 250GB drive.

The host computer -- my wife's -- is a late 2009 Macbook with Mac OS 10.8.3 in which the original 250GB mechanical hard drive was starting to see click failure. I was able to back it up and get the data off of it, and I decided getting an SSD was a good call. I got a good deal on the non-Pro 840, installed it and restored from the Time Machine backup. Everything appeared to be good as new, and much faster. I enabled TRIM (using TRIM Enabler) and my wife had a working laptop again.

Less than a month later, she reported it wouldn't boot. I powered it up, and got the folder with a question mark. Yanked the drive and put it in a PC, and the BIOS reports total size as 1GB. Samsung Magician won't recognize the drive, either. Not knowing the secure erase method, I opted to RMA the drive. Replacement arrived in a few days, so I restored from backup and everything was good again.

Now, less than a month later on the replacement drive, and my wife says it won't boot again. I power it up, and see the folder with the question mark. Yank the drive, put it in a PC, and it shows total size as 1GB again.

Both drives had the latest firmware from Samsung -- the first I upgraded myself in a PC, the second arrived with the new firmware direct from Samsung (as reported by a nice leaflet in the box explaining why the seal was broken). In both cases I used TRIM Enabler. And my wife is a teacher, so she's a pretty mobile user and usually just closes the lid and moves on to her next class. But I don't really understand what in this situation could have caused the drive to fail. Oh, and by the way, no RAID in use here. Just a single drive with the OS and user files.

I'll probably just RMA the drive again and get a replacement, but I will try to escalate this within Samsung because it doesn't sound like it's all that isolated. Any other suggestions?

Thanks.
 
I have a 250 Samsung 840 that has been sitting in its original box for 2 months now. I hope this issue get resolved.
 
Just got off the phone with Samsung Support (US), SSD section. They are sending me an RMA for the second 840. I was told that the drive suddenly reporting a total size of 1GB is a "known issue" and that there is no fix except to get the drive replaced. I asked how widespread it is, if it's related to the latest firmware release or a certain batch of drives, etc. All the support person could tell me was that they (Samsung US Support for SSDs) have it in their system as a known problem and that they've been reporting it to Samsung corporate for a while and have been waiting for a fix.

(Side note: the RMA requests come from a non-Samsung domain, so it appears that Samsung contracts out their support services like a lot of tech companies. This would explain the "we've been reporting it to Samsung" comments, IMO.)

I asked if I could escalate the issue because it is my second drive with the problem, and I was told that a supervisor would call me back later today or tomorrow. The support person also told me that he could put a note in my record to have me receive a new drive, as often their replacements are refurbished units. (As previously mentioned, my first replacement came in a retail package that had a broken seal and a note inside explaining this, so I doubt it was a refurbished unit.) I asked him to please make sure to do that, and to also note in the RMA that I would not be installing the replacement drive until I receive some explanation as to the issue and a more permanent fix. I also told him I was contemplating returning the drive for a refund, but he assured me a supervisor would call me back. Still haven't heard from them, so maybe tomorrow.

Just thought others on this thread should know if you're going to continue to use the 840 drives. My 256GB 840 Pro (knock on wood) is working just fine after five months on my Macbook Pro, so it might just be isolated to the non-Pro 840 line -- at the moment, anyway.

Wish me luck...
 
RMA rates from a frech retailer.

In the next period (from October 2012 to April 2013 sales), here are the numbers we get for the moment:

- 0.15% Samsung
- 0.43% Intel
- 0.65% Corsair
- 0.78% Kingston
- 1.32% Crucial
- 1.39% OCZ

It's pretty dumb to think that a brand is getting high failure rates just because you were unlucky or you read it in a forum.
 
It's pretty dumb to think that a brand is getting high failure rates just because you were unlucky or you read it in a forum.

I wasn't implying that the rates were abnormally high or that this was a widespread problem. I was only mentioning my experience with the same issue as the OP, and that his doesn't appear to be an isolated incident. It's entirely possible that these issues are within the normal failure rate you posted. That doesn't make it any less frustrating for someone who's experienced it first hand; in my case, twice.

But, if you want to read a lot into my post, that's your prerogative... No reason to result to petty insults or talking down to people, however.
 
Sorry to post two months late in this thread, but I'm having the exact same issue the OP reports with my second Samsung 840 250GB drive.

The host computer -- my wife's -- is a late 2009 Macbook with Mac OS 10.8.3 in which the original 250GB mechanical hard drive was starting to see click failure. I was able to back it up and get the data off of it, and I decided getting an SSD was a good call. I got a good deal on the non-Pro 840, installed it and restored from the Time Machine backup. Everything appeared to be good as new, and much faster. I enabled TRIM (using TRIM Enabler) and my wife had a working laptop again.

Less than a month later, she reported it wouldn't boot. I powered it up, and got the folder with a question mark. Yanked the drive and put it in a PC, and the BIOS reports total size as 1GB. Samsung Magician won't recognize the drive, either. Not knowing the secure erase method, I opted to RMA the drive. Replacement arrived in a few days, so I restored from backup and everything was good again.

Now, less than a month later on the replacement drive, and my wife says it won't boot again. I power it up, and see the folder with the question mark. Yank the drive, put it in a PC, and it shows total size as 1GB again.

Both drives had the latest firmware from Samsung -- the first I upgraded myself in a PC, the second arrived with the new firmware direct from Samsung (as reported by a nice leaflet in the box explaining why the seal was broken). In both cases I used TRIM Enabler. And my wife is a teacher, so she's a pretty mobile user and usually just closes the lid and moves on to her next class. But I don't really understand what in this situation could have caused the drive to fail. Oh, and by the way, no RAID in use here. Just a single drive with the OS and user files.

I'll probably just RMA the drive again and get a replacement, but I will try to escalate this within Samsung because it doesn't sound like it's all that isolated. Any other suggestions?
Exact same problem here in a 2009 MacBook Pro. See my thread here:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2338861
 
RMA rates from a frech retailer.



It's pretty dumb to think that a brand is getting high failure rates just because you were unlucky or you read it in a forum.


very late to the thread, but that French retailer's list of RMA percentages is damned near useless.

First, it's just how many of XX are returned to one vendor without any reason listed, so to equate what you list, a RETURN RATE/PERCENTAGE, to a failure rate is nonsense.

Second, the return rate would be different in the EU than the US for the simple reason consumers in the EU have a year to return any item to the retailer for any reason, according to the EU consumer protection laws. So, just supposing a person bought a video card, SSD, whatever, and 6 months later a newer version comes out or the price drops significantly. That consumer would do what so many children on this board so....just return it and repurchase, or buy the newer version. Counts as an RMA but no failure involved, just a "rent an item before buying what I really want" type idiot.


So, posting those French seller's RMA results again and again in all sorts of hardware sections as some sort of "proof" of failure rates is just ignorant, if not stupid.
 
First, it's just how many of XX are returned to one vendor without any reason listed, so to equate what you list, a RETURN RATE/PERCENTAGE, to a failure rate is nonsense.

It's true that return and failure rate are not exactly the same but they are very often linked. Usually a product is returned because it has a problem. Sure, there are other reasons for returns (finding a cheaper price/product, gifts, incompatible etc) but those kinds of returns happen for all products regardless of their quality. Basically, you could take away a certain percentage of returns from each product because these kinds of returns are not specific to bad products like failures are.

So while the percentages may not be accurate, it's not a coincidence that Samsung has a return rate of 0.15% while OCZ has 1.39%. The reason behind the difference is failures.

Second, the return rate would be different in the EU than the US for the simple reason consumers in the EU have a year to return any item to the retailer for any reason, according to the EU consumer protection laws. So, just supposing a person bought a video card, SSD, whatever, and 6 months later a newer version comes out or the price drops significantly. That consumer would do what so many children on this board so....just return it and repurchase, or buy the newer version. Counts as an RMA but no failure involved, just a "rent an item before buying what I really want" type idiot.

Please link me to that law because I would gladly abuse it in every possible way.

As far as I know, the EU consumer protection laws provide return period of 7-14 days (depends on the country, here in Finland it's 14 days) for online purchases (no return period if bought in-store) and a two-year responsibility to fix broken products (basically like warranty).
 
Why RAID an ssd. Seriously, if you look at any measure of performance increase, its like 2% vs a nonRAID ssd. Going from HDD to SSD can get you an order of magnitude boost. But all you get from RAID ssd is the ability to copy a file in 2 seconds instead of 3, something you'd notice a few times a day at most, maybe. Who really needs that?
 
That sort of begs the question. What is the failure/malfunction rate of RAIDED SSDs vs. non-RAIDED SSDs?
 
Back
Top