salary.com type sites

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: Lothar
1.) Stop using salary.com
2.) Find out what your competitors are paying by applying for their job and getting an offer letter from them.
3.) Walk into your Boss office and show him the offer letters.
4.) Profit?

Seconded, although I include a resignation letter along with those offer letters.

We terminate anyone who does that, no questions asked. The best way to get a raise is to show how you add value, not to show that you can get more money from another company.

So your companies official policy is "you can't quit, you're fired"? I fail to see how this would change this situation.

No, termination does not equal fired. If they bring in a resignation letter, they are immediately terminated as 'voluntary resignation,' even if they are just doing it to negotiate a better salary. If they bring in an offer letter to try and negotiate a better salary, they are terminated as 'administrative discharge.'

Our corporate culture is such that people who would do that have no place here. Simple as that. I'm not saying that should be the policy everywhere.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: Lothar
1.) Stop using salary.com
2.) Find out what your competitors are paying by applying for their job and getting an offer letter from them.
3.) Walk into your Boss office and show him the offer letters.
4.) Profit?

Seconded, although I include a resignation letter along with those offer letters.

You actually delivered a resignation letter along with offer letters? If any of our people ever did, I'd fire them no more than a second later. That's an extremely antagonistic way to negotiate a salary.

A little diplomacy can go a long way.

imo

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: Lothar
1.) Stop using salary.com
2.) Find out what your competitors are paying by applying for their job and getting an offer letter from them.
3.) Walk into your Boss office and show him the offer letters.
4.) Profit?

Seconded, although I include a resignation letter along with those offer letters.

We terminate anyone who does that, no questions asked. The best way to get a raise is to show how you add value, not to show that you can get more money from another company.

They're probably glad to be terminated so they can work at another company and get paid what they're worth. If you already paid them what they are worth they wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Right. Because business is all about maximizing expenses at the benefit of everyone else.

Profits are taken where they can, and if reducing expenses or increasing efficiency can do it, that's what happens. To think that a company has your best interests in mind to the extent that they'll be willing to immediately sacrifice money is naive, and to think like that will only sell yourself far short.

Based on a lot of the responses in this thread, it sounds like that's what a lot of people are doing. It's not the company's responsibility to tell you how much you're worth.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

No, termination does not equal fired. If they bring in a resignation letter, they are immediately terminated as 'voluntary resignation,' even if they are just doing it to negotiate a better salary. If they bring in an offer letter to try and negotiate a better salary, they are terminated as 'administrative discharge.'

Our corporate culture is such that people who would do that have no place here. Simple as that. I'm not saying that should be the policy everywhere.

Wow, glad I don't work where you do.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: Lothar
1.) Stop using salary.com
2.) Find out what your competitors are paying by applying for their job and getting an offer letter from them.
3.) Walk into your Boss office and show him the offer letters.
4.) Profit?

Seconded, although I include a resignation letter along with those offer letters.

We terminate anyone who does that, no questions asked. The best way to get a raise is to show how you add value, not to show that you can get more money from another company.

So your companies official policy is "you can't quit, you're fired"? I fail to see how this would change this situation.

No, termination does not equal fired. If they bring in a resignation letter, they are immediately terminated as 'voluntary resignation,' even if they are just doing it to negotiate a better salary. If they bring in an offer letter to try and negotiate a better salary, they are terminated as 'administrative discharge.'

Our corporate culture is such that people who would do that have no place here. Simple as that. I'm not saying that should be the policy everywhere.

The resignation letter is what you hand in when after you show them why you're going to work somewhere else. I personally wouldn't accept a counter offer... if it takes threatening to leave just to get a raise, you're probably better off working somewhere else.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: Lothar
1.) Stop using salary.com
2.) Find out what your competitors are paying by applying for their job and getting an offer letter from them.
3.) Walk into your Boss office and show him the offer letters.
4.) Profit?

Seconded, although I include a resignation letter along with those offer letters.

We terminate anyone who does that, no questions asked. The best way to get a raise is to show how you add value, not to show that you can get more money from another company.

So your companies official policy is "you can't quit, you're fired"? I fail to see how this would change this situation.

No, termination does not equal fired. If they bring in a resignation letter, they are immediately terminated as 'voluntary resignation,' even if they are just doing it to negotiate a better salary. If they bring in an offer letter to try and negotiate a better salary, they are terminated as 'administrative discharge.'

Our corporate culture is such that people who would do that have no place here. Simple as that. I'm not saying that should be the policy everywhere.

The resignation letter is what you hand in when after you show them why you're going to work somewhere else. I personally wouldn't accept a counter offer... if it takes threatening to leave just to get a raise, you're probably better off working somewhere else.

That's not quite as bad as I had initially thought, but it still shows spite. I don't see the value in it; at the best it accomplishes nothing (especially since you just said you wouldn't accept a counter), and at the worst it burns a bridge.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

No, termination does not equal fired. If they bring in a resignation letter, they are immediately terminated as 'voluntary resignation,' even if they are just doing it to negotiate a better salary. If they bring in an offer letter to try and negotiate a better salary, they are terminated as 'administrative discharge.'

Our corporate culture is such that people who would do that have no place here. Simple as that. I'm not saying that should be the policy everywhere.

Wow, glad I don't work where you do.

Because we don't appreciate people threatening us to get a raise? Bring in a piece of paper showing the value you've added and you have a good chance of getting a raise. Likewise, bring in a piece of paper showing that you went looking elsewhere for work, and you have a good chance of being shown the door. What's so wrong about that?

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: her209
The best leverage for getting a raise is walking in with a job offer in hand for six figures.

Sounds like you know from experience!
Was this straight out of college? What industry?

Haven't done IT yet!

 

[Gothgar]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: her209
The best leverage for getting a raise is walking in with a job offer in hand for six figures.

Sounds like you know from experience!
Was this straight out of college? What industry?

Haven't done IT yet!

i see what you did there

 

[poopaskoopa]

It feels good to be at the top.... Of the bell curve...

 

[ICRS]

I know someone who:
1. Who got an offer from another company.
2. Went to his current boss showed the offer and ask for a raise.
3. Got a raise, and then went back to the new company and asked for a new offer.
4 Went back to his boss and askedfor a larger raise.
5. Got the larger raise.

Leveraging offers can be a good thing.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
Because we don't appreciate people threatening us to get a raise? Bring in a piece of paper showing the value you've added and you have a good chance of getting a raise. Likewise, bring in a piece of paper showing that you went looking elsewhere for work, and you have a good chance of being shown the door. What's so wrong about that?

Just curious. How do you negotiate starting salaries? Essentially, do you tell the prospective hire, "take it or leave it"?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: ICRS
I know someone who:
1. Who got an offer from another company.
2. Went to his current boss showed the offer and ask for a raise.
3. Got a raise, and then went back to the new company and asked for a new offer.
4 Went back to his boss and askedfor a larger raise.
5. Got the larger raise.

Leveraging offers can be a good thing.

Yep. If you've got the goods and know what you're worth it works out well. You have to market/sell yourself as a service. It's just like an auction to make bidders buy what the item is worth if not more than it's worth.

Most employers actually WANT to pay more for that service because they will view you in a higher light. Everybody is subject to the notion that if it costs more it must be better. Ever bid services? The low bid is normally thrown out because if they're that cheap something must be wrong.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

No, termination does not equal fired. If they bring in a resignation letter, they are immediately terminated as 'voluntary resignation,' even if they are just doing it to negotiate a better salary. If they bring in an offer letter to try and negotiate a better salary, they are terminated as 'administrative discharge.'

Our corporate culture is such that people who would do that have no place here. Simple as that. I'm not saying that should be the policy everywhere.

Wow, glad I don't work where you do.

Because we don't appreciate people threatening us to get a raise? Bring in a piece of paper showing the value you've added and you have a good chance of getting a raise. Likewise, bring in a piece of paper showing that you went looking elsewhere for work, and you have a good chance of being shown the door. What's so wrong about that?

I don't think showing your employer an offer letter deserves termination. It's not always that you were out looking for a job. To be honest, the job I'm in now is the result of an old friend calling me up and telling me about the job. I was not out looking for one, but I did let my manager know and they offered to increase my salary. It came down to the fact that I wanted to work for this other company and the job role, but they weren?t going to fire me for being honest.

My company actually goes out and evaluates market salaries every year and makes sure that we're paid at the top of our area, but not all companies take care of their employee like that. Firing someone for asking about matching a salary is a bit harsh. I can understand if they give you a resignation letter, but not just sitting down with their manager to ask.

Sounds like your company don't have an open door policy and solid people/management skills. I?d love to see your engagement scores.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: Lothar
1.) Stop using salary.com
2.) Find out what your competitors are paying by applying for their job and getting an offer letter from them.
3.) Walk into your Boss office and show him the offer letters.
4.) Profit?

Seconded, although I include a resignation letter along with those offer letters.

Why would you want to include that?

If you don't like the company, leave.
If you want to negotiate salary, show them actual competitor offers.

Showing the resignation letter won't achieve anything except make it look like you're threatening them.

 

[jackace]

My father who is a mechanical engineer with 30+ years experience. The best advice he says he can give anyone about their career is always be looking for something better. You can't expect your current employer to be looking out for your best interests, and you never know when something new might become available and give you a shot at progressing professionally.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: ICRS
I know someone who:
1. Who got an offer from another company.
2. Went to his current boss showed the offer and ask for a raise.
3. Got a raise, and then went back to the new company and asked for a new offer.
4 Went back to his boss and askedfor a larger raise.
5. Got the larger raise.

Leveraging offers can be a good thing.

This is what I did as well.

I went to all interviews with offer letters in my hand.
I interviewed with all the retail pharmacies (CVS, Walgreens, Rite-Aid, Walmart, Target, Eckerds, Shoppers, Giant, Safeway, Wegmans and Costco)

I preferred to work at Wegmans, Walgreens, Rite-Aid, Walmart, or Costco than the others; so I leveraged.
CVS gave me the highest initial offer, and I showed ALL those companies the offer letters/benefits/compensation booklets(including vacation days, discounts, and other things) and told them to match it.

All those companies later went above and beyond what CVS offered both in annual salary, bonuses, and benefits.
Companies that didn't match or gave me a roll around(Read: Giant, Shoppers, Eckerds) were automatically taken off my shopping list with their contract/offer letter ending up in our paper shredder.

I didn't have to spend time explaining "how I can bring value to the company" or some stupid crap like that.

I went back to CVS to negotiate a new offer, but they didn't match it.

 

[spidey07]

Lothar, you are experiencing supply and demand.

Learn it, live it, love it.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: ICRS
I know someone who:
1. Who got an offer from another company.
2. Went to his current boss showed the offer and ask for a raise.
3. Got a raise, and then went back to the new company and asked for a new offer.
4 Went back to his boss and askedfor a larger raise.
5. Got the larger raise.

Leveraging offers can be a good thing.

Yep. If you've got the goods and know what you're worth it works out well. You have to market/sell yourself as a service. It's just like an auction to make bidders buy what the item is worth if not more than it's worth.

No doubt. Though most negotiations aren't well regarded if it's an obvious attempt to cause the other person to raise their price. Most business people have the discipline (not to mention a ceiling based on company policy) to opt out of a bidding war just as most consumers would.

Most employers actually WANT to pay more for that service because they will view you in a higher light.

Not sure I agree with that when it comes to employers. Most employers know the industry well enough to know how much a given resource would cost. So, an inflated cost would most likely be a major negative in the hiring process.

On the other side though, I do agree that too low a cost (relative to the market) implies inexperience, apathy and a combination of other things. Still, many of these people are hired to adjunct more capable resources to help hedge costs; the so-called "blended rate" of many firms exemplifies this.

Finally, with respect to consumers I absolutely agree. Consumers almost always think more expensive == better, because we don't always have enough information to evaluate the value-add of a product. This consumer psychology is exploited with precision on a regular basis.

Everybody is subject to the notion that if it costs more it must be better. Ever bid services? The low bid is normally thrown out because if they're that cheap something must be wrong.

Yep, that's generally true, but that is simplifying is quite a lot. I can tell you with certainty that a great number of US corporations are accepting the cheapest bids from offshore resources, and by cheapest I mean by about 50%. If these were companies selling non-human commodities, they'd call it predatory pricing.

It just depends on what the stimulus is for the company at the time. No one is immune to budget cuts, and when it happens the cheapest will win, almost every time. The value-add has to come from a lot more than just the raw cost of material (in the context of IT, a resource). In many companies, this is still the "ol' boy network" which is very much alive and well.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
Because we don't appreciate people threatening us to get a raise? Bring in a piece of paper showing the value you've added and you have a good chance of getting a raise. Likewise, bring in a piece of paper showing that you went looking elsewhere for work, and you have a good chance of being shown the door. What's so wrong about that?

Just curious. How do you negotiate starting salaries? Essentially, do you tell the prospective hire, "take it or leave it"?

Not at all. The hiring manager has a range with which he must stay in, but the prospective hire is free to negotiate within that range.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus
I don't think showing your employer an offer letter deserves termination. It's not always that you were out looking for a job. To be honest, the job I'm in now is the result of an old friend calling me up and telling me about the job. I was not out looking for one, but I did let my manager know and they offered to increase my salary. It came down to the fact that I wanted to work for this other company and the job role, but they weren?t going to fire me for being honest.

My company actually goes out and evaluates market salaries every year and makes sure that we're paid at the top of our area, but not all companies take care of their employee like that. Firing someone for asking about matching a salary is a bit harsh. I can understand if they give you a resignation letter, but not just sitting down with their manager to ask.

Sounds like your company don't have an open door policy and solid people/management skills. I?d love to see your engagement scores.

Again, it's not that we're terminating the ee for asking for a raise. We're terminating the ee for the way he/she goes about it (i.e. threat of leaving for another job). I want to know why we should pay the ee more, not just that some other company is willing to. What value does the ee bring to the company (hard & soft)? If an ee asks for a raise, I'll tell them how to go about it. Salary negotiation is clear cut policy, and all ee's are aware of how to go/not to go about it.

We conduct a regional/national survey (varies based on the position) yearly, and we adjust base pay ranges to be 0-20% higher than market. We make up for not paying the top 10% through other benefits. You really don't know our compensation structure, so don't speculate. You also have no idea on our management skills, so don't extrapolate from one policy that you don't fully understand.

Which engagment scores would you like to see?

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: LikeLinus
I don't think showing your employer an offer letter deserves termination. It's not always that you were out looking for a job. To be honest, the job I'm in now is the result of an old friend calling me up and telling me about the job. I was not out looking for one, but I did let my manager know and they offered to increase my salary. It came down to the fact that I wanted to work for this other company and the job role, but they weren?t going to fire me for being honest.

My company actually goes out and evaluates market salaries every year and makes sure that we're paid at the top of our area, but not all companies take care of their employee like that. Firing someone for asking about matching a salary is a bit harsh. I can understand if they give you a resignation letter, but not just sitting down with their manager to ask.

Sounds like your company don't have an open door policy and solid people/management skills. I?d love to see your engagement scores.

Again, it's not that we're terminating the ee for asking for a raise. We're terminating the ee for the way he/she goes about it (i.e. threat of leaving for another job). I want to know why we should pay the ee more, not just that some other company is willing to. What value does the ee bring to the company (hard & soft)? If an ee asks for a raise, I'll tell them how to go about it. Salary negotiation is clear cut policy, and all ee's are aware of how to go/not to go about it.

We conduct a regional/national survey (varies based on the position) yearly, and we adjust base pay ranges to be 0-20% higher than market. We make up for not paying the top 10% through other benefits. You really don't know our compensation structure, so don't speculate. You also have no idea on our management skills, so don't extrapolate from one policy that you don't fully understand.

Which engagment scores would you like to see?

I would think an employee would already know about your compensation structure considering they already work there.
If an employee brings a new offer(including salary, benefits, and compensation) from your competitor asking for a raise, why should they automatically be fired?

Do you treat prospective employees the same way too?
If I come to your company and you show me your offer(including benefits and compensation), and I bring an offer from a competitor(including benefits and compensation), you're saying you wouldn't match it or at least increase your offer without me explaining "how I can bring value to your company?"

In order words, if me as a prospective employee did exactly what I did in my earlier post above, my future employment with your company would automatically be terminated before I even get a chance to accept your offer?

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: Lothar
I would think an employee would already know about your compensation structure considering they already work there.
If an employee brings a new offer(including salary, benefits, and compensation) from your competitor asking for a raise, why should they automatically be fired?

Do you treat prospective employees the same way too?
If I come to your company and you show me your offer(including benefits and compensation), and I bring an offer from a competitor(including benefits and compensation), you're saying you wouldn't match it or at least increase your offer without me explaining "how I can bring value to your company?"

In order words, if me as a prospective employee did exactly what I did in my earlier post above, my future employment with your company would automatically be terminated before I even get a chance to accept your offer?

1.) Because, knowing our compensation structure (and salary negotiation policy), the ee already knows that our positions are externally aligned at a set level, and the negotiation needs to be from an internal perspective. Them bringing in an offer letter is the equivalent of saying "I know the policy, but screw it. These people are going to give me this. Match it or else."

2.) Simply bringing me an offer letter isn't going to make me want to increase the offer. I wouldn't disqualify them (or penalize them in any way) for doing so, but I care about the value they will bring, not what others are willing to pay them.

As I stated before, there is plenty of room to negotiate, but the candidate needs to negotiate based off of their KSA, not what others are willing to pay. Money shouldn't be the only factor, and I'm willing to wait for someone who believes that. You usually end up with higher engagement from those ee's.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
Simply bringing me an offer letter isn't going to make me want to increase the offer. I wouldn't disqualify them (or penalize them in any way) for doing so, but I care about the value they will bring, not what others are willing to pay them.

As I stated before, there is plenty of room to negotiate, but the candidate needs to negotiate based off of their KSA, not what others are willing to pay. Money shouldn't be the only factor, and I'm willing to wait for someone who believes that. You usually end up with higher engagement from those ee's.

1.) But if others are willing to pay them more than you are, then that means they recognize the value that the "prospective employee" will bring compared to if they worked at your firm otherwise they wouldn't offer them more. Correct?

2.) Usually yes, but that is not always the case.
I will work my hardest to rise to the top regardless of where I'm at. Sitting there like a penguin, regardless of what a company is willing to pay me won't achieve anything or help me climb the ladder.

Scenario:
Company A is 10mins away and offers higher salary, benefits, and compensation.
Company B is 10mins away and offers lower salary, benefits, and compensation.

Would you automatically assume that because I have a neighbor who goes to work at Company B that he would bring higher value and engagement than I would?
I think that would be a gross generalization on your part.
You don't know if my neighbor goes there simply because his GF works there, or because the fine females at the firm gives him a hard on every morning and he's looking to date one of them, or because he simply has a family member/friend who already works there, or because it's a laid back job in which he can browse ATOT when he's supposed to be working.

An even better example:
Government jobs "generally" pay less in salary/benefits/compensation compared to the private sector, but yet they're still "generally" regarded as more lazy and produce much less products, especially when comparing products/employee(which in turn will affect revenue/employee) and many other statistics etc...

Money shouldn't be the only factor of course, that's why I also compared other factors such as vacation days, and other numerous benefits/discounts/compensation structure when I went to my interview.

I'm sure your firm does it's own analysis and I'm not here to argue that.
Just letting you know that you shouldn't make such generalizations about me if I decide to apply for your firm sometime in the future and do the same thing that I did at my current job.