Sacrifice and T&L.. odd comments

[DaveB3D]

Ripped from VE. Here is what one of the guys at Shiny wrote on T&L in Sacrifice:

While there's certainly no problem playing the game without T&L, I find it makes a very noticeable difference.
There's a lot of polygons in the source data for most of the stuff in the game. Cards that have really good hardware T&L, like the Geforce cards, lets you see a lot more of that. I've seen poly counts nearly double on Geforce2 cards vs the same machine w/o T&L.

Its not just poly counts though. In some cases it can dramatically improve the framerate.

In summary: if you've already got a 3d accelerator that meets our min spec don't worry about it. But if you're planning on buying new card anyway you should consider a board with good hardware T&L.


Now I find this VERY strange.

I've run it side by side.. identical systems and identical monitors. One with a 5500 and one with a GF Ultra and the two of us looking at it could tell ZERO difference between the two. We stared at it for about 5 minutes, moved around, etc. Couldn't find a lick of difference between the two.

The guy from Shiny I talked to at E3 say he ran it at work on a P3-500 and a TNT2 (or was it TNT1?). He said that it was VERY close to GTS. He said the only place he noticed a difference was WAY out in the distance on the mountains. Also he said that a 700 MHz system and similar or quicker graphics card would look identical to the T&L version.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Complete speculation-

Perhaps it only effects certain areas/models. If you run through MDK2 for a few minutes with a V5(running software) and a GF2/Radeon(hardware) you may not notice any difference either. Only certain portions of the game are effected.

I have yet to see the game(demo anywhere?), and it isn't released until tom.. err, today

 

[pg22]

In 5th grade, I had a Super Nintendo and my friend had a Genesis. We both had Street FIghter II and we fought about which one was better.


I said the Super Nintendo version was better becuase it has crisper visuals due to the hardware implementation of Mode 7 graphics. I also stated that the SNES controller had a much more viable 6 button setup.


My friend who had the Genesis argued that becuase of his |337 Blast Processing, the Genesis had a higher framerate. And even tho the Genesis had only 3 buttons, it taught much more disciplince for the punch/kick attacks variables.


He then said to me: "Genesis Does What NintenDon't"
I countered with: "Now you're playing with Power. NINTENDO power!"

 

[AdamK47]

Yes, that is very strange. Someone has something good to say about T&L when we all know that T&L is pointless. Who in their right mind would say something positive about T&L. Who cares if T&L can improve the frame rate in the game anyway? Heck, my 8MB Rendition V1000 can even look identical to a GeForce 2 GTS in 1024x768 with 32-bit color.

Homer- By the way, I'm being sarcastic
Marge- Well duh!

 

[NFS4]

Exactly, nVidia can't do anything right in your eyes Dave I'm being serious here though. I haven't heard you say ONE thing nice about nVidia or any other video card manufacturer out there. Sure, I know that you work for 3dfx, but since you're not with your 3dfx-folk while on this board, do you ALWAYS have to be so one-sided with your comments?

You question Shiny...the people who made the game on their merits with T&L in THEIR game? Come on. They coded the thing, they know how it works, and what T&L does. Why do you have to always question everything? So what if the Radeon and GeForce based cards will do better in the game due to T&L enhancements (be it quality/poly wise or speed improvements).

Ohh I forgot, it's b/c they were praising a feature that 3dfx doesn't have, so you have to retaliate :Q

Seriously though, can we stop with the partisan bickering?

 

[KMurphy]

That's because everyone knows Shiny is secretly out to ruin 3dfx. :Q

 

[Loralon]

I made the mistake of opening this thread without looking at who the originator was. What a mistake!

 

[DaveB3D]

Actually, you set your desired frame-rate and the LOD system scales the image quality to reach that frame-rate.


If you you *read* what I wrote, you see I also go by what one of the people at Shiny told me. I swear, do people not read things anymore? Same problem with that press release 3dfx put out. People didn't actually read it and just assumed it said something it didn't.


And that said, who cares if I've said anything positive? But I have. I actually suggested somebody get a MX.

 

[NFS4]

<< And that said, who cares if I've said anything positive? >>


It's not so much that, it's just that just about everything said about any other company besides 3dfx has been NEGATIVE.


<< But I have. I actually suggested somebody get a MX. So eat that! >>


Are you sure you were feeling OK when you made that recommendation?

 

[DaveB3D]

My point is.. for everyone.. get the facts straight before you start bitching.

 

[NFS4]

<< The guy from Shiny I talked to at E3 say he ran it at work on a P3-500 and a TNT2 (or was it TNT1?). He said that it was VERY close to GTS. He said the only place he noticed a difference was WAY out in the distance on the mountains. Also he said that a 700 MHz system and similar or quicker graphics card would look identical to the T&amp;L version. >>


This is NOW, E3 was way back in May. Plenty of time to make optimizations and changes...

 

[DaveB3D]

sigh.. Well then consider that I looked at it the other day...

And there is only so much that can be done. However, he told me what it &quot;will&quot; look like and what system you &quot;will&quot; use.

 

[NFS4]

So in other words, the guy from Shiny is lying his ass off with those comments you posted at the top of thread?

 

[DaveB3D]

No, you're just being an ass right now actually trying to pick everything I say to pieces.



What I was saying and the WHOLE point of this thread is that I found is coments &quot;odd&quot;. Notice the topic. And so I gave me reasons for finding the comments odd and left it at that. You are the one that says he is lying. I'm just saying I find them odd and explain why. Don't read into it. Take it for exactly what I said.

 

[NFS4]

NO, I'm just trying to get understand what you're saying here. One Shiny guy is saying that it provides dramatic improvements. And then you say that another Shiny guy says that there basically no difference.

They can't both be right.

 

[DaveB3D]

No joke... again, hence the word &quot;odd&quot;. I've seen it myself too, and so it is odd. When something like this happens, it is usually consider &quot;strange&quot;, &quot;unusual&quot;, &quot;weird&quot;, &quot;interesting&quot;, &quot;funny&quot;, etc.

 

[DaveB3D]

One of the guys at NVIDIA pointed out that the conflict might be because they use a very agressive LOD system. Basically, they do a really good job reducing detail without making it noticeable in the models. So perhaps, the count is actually lower it is just very difficult to tell. As was pointed out, it was perhaps this guy who designed the initial models and so he is very well aware of minor details in them and so *he* notices the differences that others wouldn't.

 

[NFS4]

That's what happens when you over analyze Sorry Dave

But I still have no doubt that the first comments you posted are most likely true. I'd hate them go through all the trouble to implement T&amp;L and it not be worth a crap.

My whole point for posting in this thread is b/c it just seems that you always have a way of slighting other companies that aren't 3dfx. However subtle, I notice it all over the place.

 

[Finality]

Oooo cat fight

 

[pg22]

No, you're just being an ass right now actually trying to pick everything I say to pieces.



Sigh.....


Dave, I've been a 3dfx fan since day one. Had their stock since the IPO 3 years ago. Owned Voodoo's 1-3. And in my absolute honestly, I would love for 3dfx to reign supreme again. But the fact of the matter is your intial post is almost pointless as a topic. And in fact, considering your current occupation, borders on advertising. If you had posted this in another thread, instead of a another_damn_topic which you should have known was gonna bring this, then you would have made a valid point. But this just seems like someone trying to pick a fight.

w3rd.

 

[Bead]

On the build of Sacrifice I'm using, v0492, hitting F8 a couple of times will display triangles/scene and fps among other things. That might help to solve this.

 

[thorin]

pg19
&quot;But this just seems like someone trying to pick a fight.&quot;

He works for 3dfx are you suprised that he's picking a fight? haven't you noticed that in their last 3 or 4 (or more) interviews they make more comments about &quot;our competitors method/architecture/hack/etc&quot; and &quot;other companies&quot; then they do about their own stuff.

Thorin

 

[NFS4]

<< And in fact, considering your current occupation, borders on advertising. If you had posted this in another thread, instead of a another_damn_topic which you should have known was gonna bring this, then you would have made a valid point. But this just seems like someone trying to pick a fight. >>


Now that I look at it, I don't think that that was Dave's original intent. But when I saw it, I did think the same thing that you are thinking. And that's why I wrote my response.

It's kind of hard to seperate the man from the machine...

 

[pg22]

np thorin

 

[rockhard]

Lo

After reading this thread got me thinking why wasnt it posted in For Sale/Trade Forum

Another vote for selling your employer

rockhard =)