S/A - Intels Thunderbolt pointless? USB3 design upward of 25 Gbps!

[Arkadrel]

Basically Thunderbolt does the exact same thing USB does... just slightly faster at a much more expensive solution.

Great for people that desperately need the speeds? for say lots of external hard drives.

However what is the point, if there is soon to be a 25 Gbps USB3?


http://semiaccurate.com/2011/04/15/usb-design-allows-for-25-gbps/

During IDF here in Beijing we sat down with Jeff Ravencraft the president of USB-IF (Universal Serial Bus – Implementer’s Forum).

Apart from the news about AMD having two chipsets certified for Superspeed – which we have already reported several weeks ago, Jeff also let it slip that USB has been designed with the future in mind.

Even though Superspeed USB runs at a respectable rate of 5 Gbps there is a lot of headroom in the design, Jeff told us. Basically they can turn the speed up to at least 25 Gbps – thereby surpassing Intel and Apple’s proprietary Thunderbolt technology.


The USB-IF has no immediate plans of releasing a SuperDuperSpeed USB, but expects this to happen in the next 3 to 5 years.


They of course also have to take the economy of producing silicon into consideration. Producing silicon that runs at 25 Gbps instead of 5 Gbps is currently a very expensive proposition, but might well be worthwhile in some years. Also by then there may actually be a real need for the higher speed.


And talking about USB and IDF, it is worth mentioning that Intel is still nowhere to be seen – and USB was not even mentioned in a single keynote. It is interesting that Intel is refusing to integrate Superspeed into their chip sets, while adding a discrete controller on all their motherboards.S|A

 

[exar333]

Remember that Thunderbolt is only the initial solution for this tech; when they move to optical fibers, the speed will be pretty incredible.

 

[Diogenes2]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2148157&highlight=thunderbolt

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2146047&highlight=thunderbolt


And it still has nothing to do with CPUs and Overclocking...

 

[Cerb]

Basically Thunderbolt does the exact same thing USB does (em. added)... just slightly faster at a much more expensive solution.

A USB 3 controller has native support for putting PCI-e traffic on a cable?

 

[Edrick]

I thought Lightpeak had a speed rating of 100Gbps (using optical cables). And may be out the same time as this "USB4". So we will see what the next 4-5 years brings.

That is like saying Sandy Bridge is useless because in 5 years Rockwell will be out. Poor logic in my opinion.

 

[exar333]

I am not a 'Thunderbolt' fanboy or anything, but the product was built from the ground up to really provide a lot of features. The speed is only one aspect of the connection type. It was designed to connect almost all peripherals with one connection while providing the ability to daisy-chain displays and other items into a single connection. This is why Apple is adopting this initially, as this provides huge value in the mobile sector. Delay/lag is also MUCH better with Thunderbolt vs. USB solutions.

Time will tell how this tech works and is adopted, but competition is generally good.

 

[exar333]

[insert anti-Intel fanboi response here related to how Intel makes terrible products and forces customers and end-suers to adopt their technologies]

Just to pre-empt this inevitable comment(s)...

 

[Nemesis 1]

So whos going to do the work on USB4 . Intel did the grinding work on USB 3 . They won't do USB4 . Maybe AMD can get USB ready for everyone else .

 

[Nemesis 1]

[insert anti-Intel fanboi response here related to how Intel makes terrible products and forces customers and end-suers to adopt their technologies]

Just to pre-empt this inevitable comment(s)...

Intel did the development work on USB 3 . There is a thread here on the subject of how AMD and NV were saying Intel was holding back information from them LOL.

 

[gevorg]

I am not a 'Thunderbolt' fanboy or anything, but the product was built from the ground up to really provide a lot of features. The speed is only one aspect of the connection type. It was designed to connect almost all peripherals with one connection while providing the ability to daisy-chain displays and other items into a single connection. This is why Apple is adopting this initially, as this provides huge value in the mobile sector. Delay/lag is also MUCH better with Thunderbolt vs. USB solutions.

Time will tell how this tech works and is adopted, but competition is generally good.

Good point! Its not only about speed, things like latency and jitter matter too, especially for audio/video/display.

I wonder if any of these technologies will make external gaming cards possible.

 

[Edrick]

The thought of being able to daisy-chain my monitors, speakers, keyboard, mouse, HDs, etc via a single cable to the back of my PC really excites me. I am so bad at cable management that this would make my year.

 

[Phynaz]

Basically Thunderbolt does the exact same thing USB does... just slightly faster at a much more expensive solution.

USB is neither cpu independent, memory mapped, nor low latency to mention just a few things.

Don't be fooled by an easy to "compare" number.

 

[Golgatha]

USB is neither cpu independent, memory mapped, nor low latency to mention just a few things.

Don't be fooled by an easy to "compare" number.

Thunderbolt isn't backwards compatible with every computer manufactured in the last 10 years or so as far as transferring data back and forth between computers is concerned. I expect Thunderbolt to replace Firewire perhaps, but USB is here to stay.

 

[Phynaz]

Thunderbolt isn't backwards compatible with every computer manufactured in the last 10 years or so as far as transferring data back and forth between computers is concerned. I expect Thunderbolt to replace Firewire perhaps, but USB is here to stay.

I never said USB was going anywhere. I was just pointing out a few of the important differences.

 

[hans007]

I am not a 'Thunderbolt' fanboy or anything, but the product was built from the ground up to really provide a lot of features. The speed is only one aspect of the connection type. It was designed to connect almost all peripherals with one connection while providing the ability to daisy-chain displays and other items into a single connection. This is why Apple is adopting this initially, as this provides huge value in the mobile sector. Delay/lag is also MUCH better with Thunderbolt vs. USB solutions.

Time will tell how this tech works and is adopted, but competition is generally good.

i somehow doubt anyone will ever use all those extra functions.

its just like display port. no one uses the daisy chaining or any of the extra features to take advantage of its serial nature.

and it doesnt look like its changing any time soon.

hell rambus was serial and it had all sorts of cool serial repeater hubs, and firewire could be used as network topology. and all those things failed... guess why? because they cost more for the meat of the purpose even if they did have "cool" extra features.

 

[Phynaz]

Firewire is far from a failure. It is the video transport on all but the lowest end video equipment. Specifically because it requires no cpu involvement - no dropped frames due to the cpu being busy.

 

[Idontcare]

Remember that Thunderbolt is only the initial solution for this tech; when they move to optical fibers, the speed will be pretty incredible.

This is true. For a first-gen iteration the technology certainly does aim to deliver. No real technical shortcomings that I have heard of. Cost seems to be the concern but that is a matter of volume and market penetration I am assuming, so time will cure that.

 

[piesquared]

The drawback is compatibility and whether SI will want to continue to support both standards when. Here's a good analysis.

AMD, Intel Partners Support USB 3.0 In Fusion Chipsets Over Thunderbolt

 

[Idontcare]

The drawback is compatibility and whether SI will want to continue to support both standards when. Here's a good analysis.

AMD, Intel Partners Support USB 3.0 In Fusion Chipsets Over Thunderbolt

To be honest though, thunderbolt could be the the difference between world peace and total anarchy and AMD would have no choice but to argue the case for total anarchy because thunderbolt is an Intel product and they know what it is like trying to get the necessary info from Intel to implement simple ISA extensions in a timely fashion...not viable.

 

[piesquared]

USB won't be going away anytime soon. There is too much existing hardware out there, so USB is really the only thing that makes sense. If the industry continues on the same trajectory it's on now, which is highly unlikely, it can turn on a dime overnight, then it'll take at least 5 years for all existing USB devices to be phased out of the market to the point where it could be completely replaced by thunderbolt. It's disruptive and not in a good way, there's no clear advantage other than bandwidth which evidentley can be mitigated by higher speed USB 3. Unless SI integrate both thunderbolt and USB 3, thunderbolt needs to go. The last thing the PC industry needs right now is more disruption.

 

[Arkadrel]

Well speed isnt the reason to advocate Thunderbolt, USB3 is capable of 25 Gbps if they wanted to make chips for them that funktioned at those speeds (they dont because of price costs atm, but thunderbolt is bound to make them push it out soon).

Intel motherboards are gonna go up in price because of thunderbolt thats for sure.

 

[Cerb]

USB won't be going away anytime soon. There is too much existing hardware out there, so USB is really the only thing that makes sense. If the industry continues on the same trajectory it's on now, which is highly unlikely, it can turn on a dime overnight, then it'll take at least 5 years for all existing USB devices to be phased out of the market to the point where it could be completely replaced by thunderbolt. It's disruptive and not in a good way, there's no clear advantage other than bandwidth which evidentley can be mitigated by higher speed USB 3. Unless SI integrate both thunderbolt and USB 3, thunderbolt needs to go. The last thing the PC industry needs right now is more disruption.

...and why would anyone phase out anything but external display adapters, for TB? IMO, that's the only case where it would warrant phasing out USB devices, in favor of TB. TB could become the next Firewire, maybe a successful replacement, even, if Intel doesn't mismanage it.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The whole point of USB is ubiquity, and if they phase out USB in favor of some new Intel standard, I'll be disappointed. USB has flaws, certainly, but it is also perhaps one of the best standards that the computer industry has, in terms of interoperability, save for perhaps the VGA port.

 

[Idontcare]

If we substituted these arguments with one of ATA-133 vs. SATA, or DVI vs. HDMI or Display-Port, or VLB vs. PCI, or EDO ram vs SDRAM...or Parallel-ports & serial ports vs USB.

Most new tech intersects existing tech at comparable performance and features, it is the scalability of the new tech that makes it favored in the long run.

I'm not about to bet against thunderbolt, unavoidable change comes in many shapes and forms, but I can totally understand AMD's position on the subject anything that is to become an industry staple while being proprietary to Intel. It is the least favorable business terms one could imagine for a competitor landscape like that of the x86 ecosystem.

 

[Mopetar]

i somehow doubt anyone will ever use all those extra functions.

I can see a lot of uses for it, especially in the professional space. There's now an easy one cable solution for using a notebook for video editing. The Thunderbolt port can chain the external monitor, external storage, and USB hub for keyboard and mouse.