Russia's influence on the election might be bigger than you thought

[cytg111]

Here's the problem which is why Obama didn't want to escalate, we are as vulnerable as Russia. Our electricity grids for example are not safe from hacking.

And Putin would use such a fact to rally his citizens. Just as he has used the sanctions. All those sanctions from the EU and US, stupid if you ask me.. Talk about building *real* walls - not imaginary mexican ones...

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think the question we have to ask ourselves here is this : If Putins extra political ambitions are escalating, ie. gaining momentum, then where is it likely to end. Show me the endgame, what is it he wants to achieve? When is enough enough? - And is that something that is tolerable? - and if not, you better start dealing with it now, proactively instead of reactively. Oh noes, we've been hacked, those damn ruskies again (puts another meaningles sanction into effect.)

The problem ordinary people like us have is we're dealing with speculation. We don't know what's known by intelligence agencies and it needs to be that way of course, but I can't imagine we aren't hacking into them at least as much as they are doing to us. Intel however is intel. It's not policy but something policy can be based upon. Sadly the current Office holder seems to avoid that resource, even disparage it. We're pretty screwed when it comes to prudent action.

 

[zinfamous]

I don't think it's a ideological conflict with western liberalism per se much as any threat to himself, which is why for example he fights conservative/extremist muslims aligned against him with actual physical armies. It also plays really well at home to be under siege by enemies whom he's the strongman solution to. He'll definitely be seen as outwitting the west here.

It is a conflict with western liberalism, and it is a means to centralize power around himself. Putin has never left his days with the KGB. He made his bones in East Germany has a hardcore believer in the USSR and that remains with him. The disaster (from the Russain perspective) of the Gorbachev --> Yeltsin economic contraction and loss of world respect as enemy #1 is a scar deeply felt and loudly displayed by Putin in every single thing he does. Now, he's not entirely wrong here as the turn over from the USSR into a market-based economy was extremely difficult for much of Russia which, if you can appreciate, has never really been a "free" country in any contemporary or modern, or classical sense. You have to go back to well before the time of the Tsars and even then, pre-Imperial Russia, I honestly do not know what you find other than families of serfs living in and serving under their various Lord's properties and land. Unique to any advanced, first-world modern society, Russia has essentially never experienced a free democracy. I'm honestly not sure if the average Russian would be a willing participant in such a paradigm (some certainly are--Putin has many, many detractors within Russia, but their voices are largely silenced).

Putin makes no secret that he wants to return to the "glory days" of the USSR, which essentially means that they are on the world's collective mind as the "Real threat." This is all he really understands. He promises "glory days" to people that actually never experienced the true horror of the USSR because, frankly, their lives do kind of suck these days and they have no other basis of comparison. Putin has a shit-ton of young, ignorant, stupid-ass fans that, not unlike the core Trump supporters, do nothing but rage and vote against their own best-interests.

 

[ivwshane]

Hyperbole isn't useful. This is more like the Cold War- bad, but the nukes aren't flying. Duck and cover? No.

It makes perfect sense for Russians to try to interfere with the internet to use as a propaganda tool but you lost me when you got to the level of Anandtech. That smacks of looking for commies under the bed. Who is suspect? Me because I didn't and still don't trust Hillary? I'm some mind control expert of Russian origin? Strong Trump supporters who don't convert anyone but get dumped on? Perk? He's an admin after all and may be cleverly controlling the boards. Er, no and he'll probably have a good laugh when he sees this. Moonbeam?

The point is that this is what propaganda is designed to do, create distrust between people as well as manipulate towards a desired set of ideas. Your concern at the gross level of control is warranted and I'm not dismissing it, but complete manipulation to the granular level that is AT? That's a bit much, but that's what a Russian agent would say, right?

I don't know about you but acts against a country that aims to fundamentally change it identity is far worse than the temporary pain of loss of life and structures.

But hey, war has always had a consistent definition, right?


My question about anandtech is because anandtech is a technology website who has a long history of using/building/controlling it's own servers and is quite capable of detecting potential anomalies. It was also apparently hacked last year as well when almost everyone was banned. They question was asked to gain insight into the how.

 

[ivwshane]

This is American exceptionalism at its finest. We militarily remove govts from power and interfere with elections everywhere. The mere suggestion another country does the same to us and it is WWIII. Whatever that is supposed to mean. I take that as an armed conflict needs to be waged.

I think the most funny part about this is how the left have turned into 1980s republicans with a hint of 1950s McCarthy.

Ah, so if we do it it means we are ok with it. I'm amazed at how much straw you are able to pull from your ass.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I don't know about you but acts against a country that aims to fundamentally change it identity is far worse than the temporary pain of loss of life and structures.

But hey, war has always had a consistent definition, right?


My question about anandtech is because anandtech is a technology website who has a long history of using/building/controlling it's own servers and is quite capable of detecting potential anomalies. It was also apparently hacked last year as well when almost everyone was banned. They question was asked to gain insight into the how.

AT has been hacked a few times. It wasn't Russian when I was on board. As "temporary loss of of life and structures", we had a tiny problem on 9/11, something insignificant really and that's changed this country. Now make that a hundred thousand or a million times worse and tell me that Russians doing very bad things indeed is much much worse. War isn't Counterstrike- no one respawns.

 

[ivwshane]

AT has been hacked a few times. It wasn't Russian when I was on board. As "temporary loss of of life and structures", we had a tiny problem on 9/11, something insignificant really and that's changed this country. Now make that a hundred thousand or a million times worse and tell me that Russians doing very bad things indeed is much much worse. War isn't Counterstrike- no one respawns.

Uh, due to 9/11 we've changed quite a few things and compromises our values, we are now doing the same thing without being physically attacked. Hell, just to give you an example of what this path looks like, take a look at Irans history and the path they were on before we meddled in their politics.

You are underestimating the impact their influence has and has had on this country. And yes people don't respawn but they do have children and as new generations are created their attachment to war disappears but our values remain. Now take those same generations and change their values and tell me what had a bigger impact on the country.

 

[agent00f]

It is a conflict with western liberalism, and it is a means to centralize power around himself. Putin has never left his days with the KGB. He made his bones in East Germany has a hardcore believer in the USSR and that remains with him. The disaster (from the Russain perspective) of the Gorbachev --> Yeltsin economic contraction and loss of world respect as enemy #1 is a scar deeply felt and loudly displayed by Putin in every single thing he does. Now, he's not entirely wrong here as the turn over from the USSR into a market-based economy was extremely difficult for much of Russia which, if you can appreciate, has never really been a "free" country in any contemporary or modern, or classical sense. You have to go back to well before the time of the Tsars and even then, pre-Imperial Russia, I honestly do not know what you find other than families of serfs living in and serving under their various Lord's properties and land. Unique to any advanced, first-world modern society, Russia has essentially never experienced a free democracy. I'm honestly not sure if the average Russian would be a willing participant in such a paradigm (some certainly are--Putin has many, many detractors within Russia, but their voices are largely silenced).

Putin makes no secret that he wants to return to the "glory days" of the USSR, which essentially means that they are on the world's collective mind as the "Real threat." This is all he really understands. He promises "glory days" to people that actually never experienced the true horror of the USSR because, frankly, their lives do kind of suck these days and they have no other basis of comparison. Putin has a shit-ton of young, ignorant, stupid-ass fans that, not unlike the core Trump supporters, do nothing but rage and vote against their own best-interests.

Putin is hardly any USSR ideologue, or else he would be running with the communist party in elections; there's ~zero attempt to return to soviet socialism, just a cult of personality for himself as the man who can run the country. He's much more of a fascist, running the country like a CEO, and most russians love him for it. If there's an election tomorrow he'd win fair and square for sure.

I suppose in some way that's in conflict with the progressive west, but not ideologically at the level of Marx vs Hayek or something, just largely a matter of coincidence that Stalin was power-hungry opposite some western countries at one point in time and Putin inherited that geopolitical dynamic.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Uh, due to 9/11 we've changed quite a few things and compromises our values, we are now doing the same thing without being physically attacked. Hell, just to give you an example of what this path looks like, take a look at Irans history and the path they were on before we meddled in their politics.

You are underestimating the impact their influence has and has had on this country. And yes people don't respawn but they do have children and as new generations are created their attachment to war disappears but our values remain. Now take those same generations and change their values and tell me what had a bigger impact on the country.

Propaganda is a big thing, but you talk about children. Dead people don't have children. Dead children don't grow up. Remember that we're talking radioactive slag, fallout, ecological catastrophe, pestilence, famine and more. There is no America after a full out nuclear war, just pockets of survivors that if they do have children, Russia, the US and any other more than third world nation will be as remote as Carthage. Starving, plague ridden people really don't care about the internet.

 

[ivwshane]

Propaganda is a big thing, but you talk about children. Dead people don't have children. Dead children don't grow up. Remember that we're talking radioactive slag, fallout, ecological catastrophe, pestilence, famine and more. There is no America after a full out nuclear war, just pockets of survivors that if they do have children, Russia, the US and any other more than third world nation will be as remote as Carthage. Starving, plague ridden people really don't care about the internet.

Good god guy, stop being obtuse.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Good god guy, stop being obtuse.

OK, I'll assume I'm missing something. Let's start over?

 

[Thebobo]

I have trouble watching Maddow too. She is so intellectually gifted and mentally precise in her logic there's no room to critique or rationalize away what she says in any intelligently meaningful way. She sucks all of the truth out of what she describes and on top of everything else is mildly bemused she has to explain what she is saying, like isn't all of this perfectly obvious. Also I can't shake the knowledge that she's not sexually interested in men which is a bit off-putting to my ego. As a man I derive great ego satisfaction in being the dominant gender and she threatens that on top of the big brain thing. I have a terrible suspicion deep in side of me that I suffer from some kind of sense of inferiority. At least I'm a world champion nobody.

lol nice.

I'm a simple minded male I just like they way she weaves her news into a story.

 

[Fern]

It is a conflict with western liberalism...
-snip-

Yes it is.

Putin himself has pitched it that way. IIRC, Putin made a big deal out of it a while ago, had something to gay rights etc. He claims we're morally and cultural corrupt etc. Russia is holding down the fort.

Fern

 

[woolfe9998]

Yes I did see the Maddow piece last night. Most of it I have heard before. Some of this was reported months ago, even before the election. I posted this link before and I strongly recommend that anyone interested in what Russia is up to read it:

https://warontherocks.com/2016/11/trolling-for-trump-how-russia-is-trying-to-destroy-our-democracy/

It's a fairly thorough examination of Russia's online tactics last year. It raises serious alarm bells about continued Russian interference.

 

[Fern]

A long time ago.

Yeah, we've been in a digital WW for a long while now.

Vanity Fair had a long piece on it some years ago (2011). We released STUXNET and other countries (e.g., Russia, China) have gotten hold of it, modified and fired it back at us. That, and whole lot of other viruses that have been developed.

(I found the Vanity Fair piece but you need a subscription. Too bad, was full of a lot of details and actual events IIRC.)

So, serious digital warfare has been going on for a long time and mostly goes unreported.

From what I saw last night on the news (I think it was Maddow), social media was heavily used to influence our elections (and likely every other country too). Welp, I've never used social media. You youngster better beware

Fern

 

[Jhhnn]

Looks like Vlad may be getting a lot more bang for the buck with his troll army than we get from our own military & they never fire a shot.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes it is.

Putin himself has pitched it that way. IIRC, Putin made a big deal out of it a while ago, had something to gay rights etc. He claims we're morally and cultural corrupt etc. Russia is holding down the fort.

Fern

Yep- Russia has redefined itself as kleptocracy & the keepers of conservative moral values via authoritarian control. They're natural allies of the Repubs at this point.

 

[Jaskalas]

Stealing DNC info and using it to influence our election is an act of War. If someone hacks an electronic account and uses the info, it is theft. They may have well have dropped into the country overnight, broke into paper files, copied info and exited before dawn.

Question is now what do we do about it?

If you really believe that to be true, the only possible answer is to sever Russia from the internet. By brute force. Target their infrastructure on their border. Identify the routers they typically pass through, and DOS them or worse. If you consider acts of war have been engaged, then you engage them with "acts" of your own.

If communication is their tool, you thoroughly attack it. It can be brought down.

 

[ivwshane]

If you really believe that to be true, the only possible answer is to sever Russia from the internet. By brute force. Target their infrastructure on their border. Identify the routers they typically pass through, and DOS them or worse. If you consider acts of war have been engaged, then you engage them with "acts" of your own.

If communication is their tool, you thoroughly attack it. It can be brought down.

Personally I think that is exactly what should be done and it should be done with NATO members blessing. Its not just the US they are targeting.

 

[Jhhnn]

Stealing DNC info and using it to influence our election is an act of War. If someone hacks an electronic account and uses the info, it is theft. They may have well have dropped into the country overnight, broke into paper files, copied info and exited before dawn.

Question is now what do we do about it?

It's a crime but not an act of War, particularly not when Donald begged for their help & Repubs eagerly accepted it as a basis for their own ongoing slime attack.

What do we do about it? With Repubs in charge? Not a damned thing. They welcome Russian complicity in their efforts to cripple the govt of the people & mold it into something like Oligarch control in Russia.

 

[Vic]

Trump cut a deal with Putin that for Russian support in the election, financial and logistical, Trump would ease the economic sanctions against Russia and look the other way to Putin's expansionist agenda. There's pretty much no doubt of that at this point. And because Trump isn't going to be able to deliver on that, he's got bigger problems than Congress and the American people, if you get my meaning.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy IMO.

 

[Younigue]

Trump cut a deal with Putin that for Russian support in the election, financial and logistical, Trump would ease the economic sanctions against Russia and look the other way to Putin's expansionist agenda. There's pretty much no doubt of that at this point. And because Trump isn't going to be able to deliver on that, he's got bigger problems than Congress and the American people, if you get my meaning.
Couldn't of happened to a nicer guy IMO.

My theory is that Putin will cut him loose and let him flounder. He likes the idea of an America in crisis/upheaval, to whatever end he can orchestrate in whatever way. He plans for Trump to affect him in the least way possible. Again, just my theory.

 

[Vic]

My theory is that Putin will cut him loose and let him flounder. He likes the idea of an America in crisis/upheaval, to whatever end he can orchestrate in whatever way. He plans for Trump to affect him in the least way possible. Again, just my theory.

You're probably right. Putin wins either way. America.. not so much.

 

[sandorski]

So, apparently the Secretary of State is skipping a NATO meeting and going to Russia instead.

 

[sandorski]

You're probably right. Putin wins either way. America.. not so much.

Indeed. There is no downside for Putin in this.