Russian Hacking (You People are Idiots) Part 2

[interchange]

I was listening to conservative media on my trip home last night. Erik Erikson was discussing the recent developments in the Mueller investigation. Part of this was an striking concession (framed not as a concession but rather a consistently held and obvious reality) wherein he stated that "no one doubts Russia tried to influence our election". I thought that striking because this has been very far from the opinion of conservative media for a long time, but now that focus has shifted the reality of this is readily adopted by even the most vocal Trump supporters.

And from the Papadopoulos papers, we have learned that several members of the Trump campaign had open awareness of Russia's possession of Clinton emails and intent to aid Trump in winning the campaign. Whether Trump actively colluded with them is a separate and extremely important question under active investigation and currently occupying the minds of the majority of politically attentive Americans.

But what we, again, are losing sight of is Russia. Now, even the right does not deny Russia's activity in undermining our democratic process. And, as Comey warned, this is no isolated, inactive project. Yet, response to Russia and investigation and countermeasures for their interference are minimal. Even more appalling is that, in light of recent documents, even if Trump did not collude with Russia, members of his administration had clear knowledge of their attempts well before public release. And not only have they knowingly falsely cast doubt into the existence of Russian involvement at all, they have failed to even do their part in implementing congressional sanctions in response to Russia (abolished the portion of the state department dedicated to this purpose and are a month late on responding to Congress). They failed to investigate activities of Russia to undermine our democracy in ways completely unrelated to the Trump campaign. And have made such an honest investigation so politically charged and partisan that existing congressional intelligence committees are seriously hampered in addressing our known and extremely dangerous enemy which is guaranteed to continue operation long after Trump's presidency ends.

And we the people are lapping it up. We are afraid of Trump or afraid of Hillary at the exclusion of everything else.

Imagine Putin's position at the moment. He is in pure profit mode. He gets to sit back and watch America fight each other and ignore his contributions to our actions. He gets to see us grow increasingly divided and increasingly normalize horrifying human behavior to maintain cohesiveness of the Republican party and the Trump administration. And, should Trump go down, he'll be replaced by Pence. If this happens making Putin fail to reach a perfect score, don't let that deter you from realizing that Putin will still have won the game handily.

As far as the Trump administration goes, I'll repeat what I've already said. We are extreme fools for caring so much about the results of Mueller's investigation. If nothing else, the administration's knowledge of the validity of Russia's interference and activities to undermine America's ability to investigate and appropriately respond to this threat is an impermissible criminal threat to US sovereignty. We don't need the Mueller investigation to produce fruits to realize that Trump is knowingly endangering America to protect his image. No more evidence is needed. Trump deserves to be removed. And America needs to seriously explore and respond to Putin's continuing threat.

Reference to part 1: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/russian-hacking-you-people-are-idiots.2494857/

 

[woolfe9998]

I would caution against assuming that "the right" has come to grips with Russia's interference in the election last year. I don't know about Erik Erikson, but it's a common believe among conservatives that the Russians did not do this hacking, that Seth Rich or someone else did it, and that the Clintons are the ones who colluded with Russia.

 

[hal2kilo]

I was listening to conservative media on my trip home last night. Erik Erikson was discussing the recent developments in the Mueller investigation. Part of this was an striking concession (framed not as a concession but rather a consistently held and obvious reality) wherein he stated that "no one doubts Russia tried to influence our election". I thought that striking because this has been very far from the opinion of conservative media for a long time, but now that focus has shifted the reality of this is readily adopted by even the most vocal Trump supporters.

And from the Papadopoulos papers, we have learned that several members of the Trump campaign had open awareness of Russia's possession of Clinton emails and intent to aid Trump in winning the campaign. Whether Trump actively colluded with them is a separate and extremely important question under active investigation and currently occupying the minds of the majority of politically attentive Americans.

But what we, again, are losing sight of is Russia. Now, even the right does not deny Russia's activity in undermining our democratic process. And, as Comey warned, this is no isolated, inactive project. Yet, response to Russia and investigation and countermeasures for their interference are minimal. Even more appalling is that, in light of recent documents, even if Trump did not collude with Russia, members of his administration had clear knowledge of their attempts well before public release. And not only have they knowingly falsely cast doubt into the existence of Russian involvement at all, they have failed to even do their part in implementing congressional sanctions in response to Russia (abolished the portion of the state department dedicated to this purpose and are a month late on responding to Congress). They failed to investigate activities of Russia to undermine our democracy in ways completely unrelated to the Trump campaign. And have made such an honest investigation so politically charged and partisan that existing congressional intelligence committees are seriously hampered in addressing our known and extremely dangerous enemy which is guaranteed to continue operation long after Trump's presidency ends.

And we the people are lapping it up. We are afraid of Trump or afraid of Hillary at the exclusion of everything else.

Imagine Putin's position at the moment. He is in pure profit mode. He gets to sit back and watch America fight each other and ignore his contributions to our actions. He gets to see us grow increasingly divided and increasingly normalize horrifying human behavior to maintain cohesiveness of the Republican party and the Trump administration. And, should Trump go down, he'll be replaced by Pence. If this happens making Putin fail to reach a perfect score, don't let that deter you from realizing that Putin will still have won the game handily.

As far as the Trump administration goes, I'll repeat what I've already said. We are extreme fools for caring so much about the results of Mueller's investigation. If nothing else, the administration's knowledge of the validity of Russia's interference and activities to undermine America's ability to investigate and appropriately respond to this threat is an impermissible criminal threat to US sovereignty. We don't need the Mueller investigation to produce fruits to realize that Trump is knowingly endangering America to protect his image. No more evidence is needed. Trump deserves to be removed. And America needs to seriously explore and respond to Putin's continuing threat.

Reference to part 1: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/russian-hacking-you-people-are-idiots.2494857/

The Mueller investigation is even more important if you believe what you say, and I don't doubt you. If none of this is brought to light. The Trump administration and the Republicans will pretend none of this ever happened.

 

[interchange]

The Mueller investigation is even more important if you believe what you say, and I don't doubt you. If none of this is brought to light. The Trump administration and the Republicans will pretend none of this ever happened.

More important for what aim? To destroy the Republican party? I do not think that would be good for America.

 

[interchange]

I would caution against assuming that "the right" has come to grips with Russia's interference in the election last year. I don't know about Erik Erikson, but it's a common believe among conservatives that the Russians did not do this hacking, that Seth Rich or someone else did it, and that the Clintons are the ones who colluded with Russia.

This is fair, particularly in the everyday person at the water cooler or on internet message boards, though I'll observe the statements from media pundits and Republican politicians more carefully. I do not think they could credibly make that claim at this point. Most likely they will adopt it casually as if it were never denied in the first place and continue to benefit from their early denial work through the ongoing conspiracy theories of the less legitimate conservative media and know-it-alls on social media.

 

[vi edit]

There's so much that needs to be done, it's a question of where to even start.

1) We *DO* need to get a definitive ruling on how involved the Trump campaign was with a hostile, foreign government.
2) All those involved need to prosecuted to the fullest extent possible. No mercy. No exceptions. LIFE IN PRISON. You don't fuck with our democracy. Period.
3) Every appointed official by this administration is to be removed. Purge the cancer and compromised people in office.
4) Remove every Executive Order that has been signed as they are considered compromised.
5) More accountability, transparency, and possible limiting of campaign funding needs to happen.
6) We need to inoculate our social media platforms to protect the stupid and gullible
7) We need to somehow as a society be less stupid and gullible
8) We address those and we can protect ourselves internally.

Then we figure out what to do with Russia. But ultimately we did this to ourselves because we are fucking dumb and gullible as a society.

 

[VRAMdemon]

We shall see if the Trumpists will "come to grips" with this..Most of this information won't get reported at all to the 37% who approve of the President. Today's talking point: "Nobody has ever heard of Popadopolous, and even if we have, he's a poopypants liar! HILLARY CLINTON DID IT!"

A shift against Trump will require movement in their state/district within the GOP.

Convicting Manafort and Popadopoulos doesn't strike me in any reasonable way as affecting Russia. Increased sanctions do. Cutting off Facebook and Twitter, securing the Internet, etc. are all things that hurt Russia. But of course, the Russians would argue that the West was interfering with their elections, political processes and economic decision-making from the fall of communism until the advent of the saviour Putin. Which pretty much boils down to, "Putin ran a crooked election, Hillary Clinton said it the results were tainted, so Russians think Clinton interfered in the elections." In other words, bullshit.

 

[IronWing]

More important for what aim? To destroy the Republican party? I do not think that would be good for America.

Why not? The Republican Party is a broken, corrupt organization. Clear away the debris and another party will have space to replace it.

 

[zinfamous]

This is fair, particularly in the everyday person at the water cooler or on internet message boards, though I'll observe the statements from media pundits and Republican politicians more carefully. I do not think they could credibly make that claim at this point. Most likely they will adopt it casually as if it were never denied in the first place and continue to benefit from their early denial work through the ongoing conspiracy theories of the less legitimate conservative media and know-it-alls on social media.

the right wing media understands that it no longer needs to make credible statements. They have long been aware that their dedicated viewers will listen to them, and them only. Look at people like JC and boomerang on here: not one of them steps outside the comfy bubble to challenge, even for a second, the lies that are being force-fed down their goose gullets. The rightwing media simply needs to get its overarching story straight because as long as you have a dozen or so voices on the same side repeating the same lies over and over, it begins to sound like confirmation and facts to the people that want to believe it anyway.

 

[interchange]

There's so much that needs to be done, it's a question of where to even start.

1) We *DO* need to get a definitive ruling on how involved the Trump campaign was with a hostile, foreign government.
2) All those involved need to prosecuted to the fullest extent possible. No mercy. No exceptions. LIFE IN PRISON. You don't fuck with our democracy. Period.
3) Every appointed official by this administration is to be removed. Purge the cancer and compromised people in office.
4) Remove every Executive Order that has been signed as they are considered compromised.
5) More accountability, transparency, and possible limiting of campaign funding needs to happen.
6) We need to inoculate our social media platforms to protect the stupid and gullible
7) We need to somehow as a society be less stupid and gullible
8) We address those and we can protect ourselves internally.

Then we figure out what to do with Russia. But ultimately we did this to ourselves because we are fucking dumb and gullible as a society.

Why all of that first? Russia is an incontrovertible enemy still acting against the interest of all Americans. Why not, at minimum, prioritize them such that serious parallel action occurs.

 

[vi edit]

the right wing media understands that it no longer needs to make credible statements. They have long been aware that their dedicated viewers will listen to them, and them only. Look at people like JC and boomerang on here: not one of them steps outside the comfy bubble to challenge, even for a second, the lies that are being force-fed down their goose gullets. The rightwing media simply needs to get its overarching story straight because as long as you have a dozen or so voices on the same side repeating the same lies over and over, it begins to sound like confirmation and facts to the people that want to believe it anyway.

I don't even know what to do about Fox news and the like. When some of your headliners (Like Hannity) start peddling absolute conspiracy theories (Seth Rich) you are no longer news. You are tabloid. Entertainment. Whatever. There needs to be some sort of massive disclaimer and banner around every story of that type saying this is for entertainment purposes only and has not been corroborated with any credible sources.

Not that it prevents the dumb and gullible from lapping it up. But it's a start.

 

[vi edit]

Why all of that first? Russia is an incontrovertible enemy still acting against the interest of all Americans. Why not, at minimum, prioritize them such that serious parallel action occurs.

Because we have to fix ourselves first. Otherwise we have no faith that any sanctions or pressure will be authentically enforced. Has Trump even pushed to put the sanctions into law yet? Oh wait, they just dismantled the sanctions office.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/26/state-department-scraps-sanctions-office/

 

[interchange]

Because we have to fix ourselves first. Otherwise we have no faith that any sanctions or pressure will be authentically enforced. Has Trump even pushed to put the sanctions into law yet? Oh wait, they just dismantled the sanctions office.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/26/state-department-scraps-sanctions-office/

That's outrageous! Why aren't we doing something about that?! Like impeaching Trump now instead of waiting for the Mueller investigation! And working to seriously investigate and immediately respond to Russia in a way divested from the Trump administration!

 

[Nietzsche-san]

I'm curious why no one is mentioning the Clinton Foundation's links to Russia and the Uranium deal. If Melania Trump had met with the Russians and been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for a speech, and then around the same time, people related to the Trump Foundation were involved with selling 20% of the U.S.'s uranium to Russia, it seems like the large majority of those in this subforum would be all over it.

But strangely, when it was shown that Bill Clinton did meet with the Russians and was paid that much around the time of the Uranium deal, no one is talking about it.

And before anyone tries, no this is not irrelevant. And no it doesn't matter that HRC was not president at the time or isn't currently. She was SoS and her husband is a former president. If you're going to be suspicious, you must be universally suspicious when it is warranted. In fact, these are two separate cases, but both of which all of you, so worried about our democracy, should be investigating with impunity.

Not going digging into both suspicious avenues is....silly.

And yet, there seem to be no ties between Trump and Russia. Nothing has turned up. The dossier was faked and paid for by the DNC, through a subsidiary hiring. The dossier was also used to obtain a FISA warrant for wire-tapping Trump. How are none of you talking about this? A president knowingly wiretapping a political opponent via a warrant obtained through false information, or, actually, purposefully falsified information.

Btw, Manafort's alleged crimes all happened before he joined the Trump campaign. If Trump knew about this should be investigated, but it seems like all this time and money poured into investigating Trump is a nothing-burger, and it's HRC and the Podesta Group that is most likely camp to be guilty of collusion with Russia.

Btw, you can't impeach a President until it is demonstrated that he actually did anything wrong. Cuz, ya know, constitution.

It's very obvious this forum is very left-leaning, so I'm curious if I'll get anything nearing a reasonable response.

 

[IronWing]

I'm curious why no one is mentioning [FUD].

No you're not. You're another in a long line of Trump-humpers trying to divert attention from the topic at hand.

Also, Congress can impeach a President for wearing plaid. No evidence of actual wrong-doing is required.

 

[zinfamous]

I don't even know what to do about Fox news and the like. When some of your headliners (Like Hannity) start peddling absolute conspiracy theories (Seth Rich) you are no longer news. You are tabloid. Entertainment. Whatever. There needs to be some sort of massive disclaimer and banner around every story of that type saying this is for entertainment purposes only and has not been corroborated with any credible sources.

Not that it prevents the dumb and gullible from lapping it up. But it's a start.

Fox News and the true Right Wing tabloid media was born of the end of the FCC Fairness doctrine, a process that was the brainchild of the Reagan administration and truly gave birth to the type of disinformation peddling that has become so crucial and so completely necessary for the current right-wing zietgest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine

When your only means of existing as a legitimate media outlet is the removal of requirements to report actual facts, (vis-a-vis presenting counterpoints to whatever chosen story you choose to produce) and yet you subsequently claim that you are the only entity "reporting all the facts! but fair and balanced!" you really have no actual credibility to claim either. Simply, Fox News and the rightwing propaganda arm of this country could never populate the radio or airwaves if they were legally required to adopt long-standing journalist ethics, and were beholden to actually reporting the truth, and nothing but. It truly is this simple, and there is no objective argument against this fact. If you are no longer required to suggest that what you are producing may not be true, or may not be accurate, you then claim autonomy to "the one truth." This is the kind of propaganda that is necessary to reinvent the culture of an entire nation, and is extremely effective against the poorly-educated or even those with no interest in paying attention.

The Fairness Doctrine was repealed in 1987. Before this year, there was essentially zero conservative "media." And that which existed prior was nothing like what came after.

So, imagine what would happen if ethics were once again legally required in broadcast journalism?

 

[alien42]

Faux News drivel

i'm curious if you really don't know that no uranium has been exported out of the US.

now that you do, what's the problem?

 

[zinfamous]

I'm curious why no one is mentioning the Clinton Foundation's links to Russia and the Uranium deal. If Melania Trump had met with the Russians and been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for a speech, and then around the same time, people related to the Trump Foundation were involved with selling 20% of the U.S.'s uranium to Russia, it seems like the large majority of those in this subforum would be all over it.

But strangely, when it was shown that Bill Clinton did meet with the Russians and was paid that much around the time of the Uranium deal, no one is talking about it.

And before anyone tries, no this is not irrelevant. And no it doesn't matter that HRC was not president at the time or isn't currently. She was SoS and her husband is a former president. If you're going to be suspicious, you must be universally suspicious when it is warranted. In fact, these are two separate cases, but both of which all of you, so worried about our democracy, should be investigating with impunity.

Not going digging into both suspicious avenues is....silly.

And yet, there seem to be no ties between Trump and Russia. Nothing has turned up. The dossier was faked and paid for by the DNC, through a subsidiary hiring. The dossier was also used to obtain a FISA warrant for wire-tapping Trump. How are none of you talking about this? A president knowingly wiretapping a political opponent via a warrant obtained through false information, or, actually, purposefully falsified information.

Btw, Manafort's alleged crimes all happened before he joined the Trump campaign. If Trump knew about this should be investigated, but it seems like all this time and money poured into investigating Trump is a nothing-burger, and it's HRC and the Podesta Group that is most likely camp to be guilty of collusion with Russia.

Btw, you can't impeach a President until it is demonstrated that he actually did anything wrong. Cuz, ya know, constitution.

It's very obvious this forum is very left-leaning, so I'm curious if I'll get anything nearing a reasonable response.

Among many weird things in your post, this is also completely untrue. I don't think you understand much about the constitution, because not only are requirements for impeachment intentionally vague, they are actually left open to the "determined will of the Congress," more or less. Meaning, a POTUS can be impeached for whatthefuckever reason they wanted to. Of course it is unlikely without real crimes, but you are making a claim through the constitution that is completely false.

 

[interchange]

Btw, you can't impeach a President until it is demonstrated that he actually did anything wrong. Cuz, ya know, constitution.

It's very obvious this forum is very left-leaning, so I'm curious if I'll get anything nearing a reasonable response.

Is publicly undermining the credibility of American Intelligence agencies in finding that Russia attempted to influence our election despite the campaign knowing that it was absolutely true well before the media did wrong? How about abolishing the part of the state department that is responsible for drafting foreign sanctions and subsequently failing to comply with Congress in responding to Russia?

Although your narrative about the Clinton foundation is going to be attacked in short order, I don't particularly care. It is grist for the mill and all the more reason to support my premise for this thread: we need to be very active and intentional and prompt in looking at Russia's influence on our democracy.

 

[hal2kilo]

Fox News and the true Right Wing tabloid media was born of the end of the FCC Fairness doctrine, a process that was the brainchild of the Reagan administration and truly gave birth to the type of disinformation peddling that has become so crucial and so completely necessary for the current right-wing zietgest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine

When your only means of existing as a legitimate media outlet is the removal of requirements to report actual facts, (vis-a-vis presenting counterpoints to whatever chosen story you choose to produce) and yet you subsequently claim that you are the only entity "reporting all the facts! but fair and balanced!" you really have no actual credibility to claim either. Simply, Fox News and the rightwing propaganda arm of this country could never populate the radio or airwaves if they were legally required to adopt long-standing journalist ethics, and were beholden to actually reporting the truth, and nothing but. It truly is this simple, and there is no objective argument against this fact. If you are no longer required to suggest that what you are producing may not be true, or may not be accurate, you then claim autonomy to "the one truth." This is the kind of propaganda that is necessary to reinvent the culture of an entire nation, and is extremely effective against the poorly-educated or even those with no interest in paying attention.

The Fairness Doctrine was repealed in 1987. Before this year, there was essentially zero conservative "media." And that which existed prior was nothing like what came after.

So, imagine what would happen if ethics were once again legally required in broadcast journalism?

Probably one of the worst thing to happen to this country. Yep, it all starts right there.

 

[hal2kilo]

Is publicly undermining the credibility of American Intelligence agencies in finding that Russia attempted to influence our election despite the campaign knowing that it was absolutely true well before the media did wrong? How about abolishing the part of the state department that is responsible for drafting foreign sanctions and subsequently failing to comply with Congress in responding to Russia?

Although your narrative about the Clinton foundation is going to be attacked in short order, I don't particularly care. It is grist for the mill and all the more reason to support my premise for this thread: we need to be very active and intentional and prompt in looking at Russia's influence on our democracy.

Sadly, with the Repugs having majority in both the house and senate we will get none of this. Its party over country. Mueller is our only hope. This is what I don't think you are getting.

 

[dank69]

That's outrageous! Why aren't we doing something about that?! Like impeaching Trump now instead of waiting for the Mueller investigation! And working to seriously investigate and immediately respond to Russia in a way divested from the Trump administration!

Because America voted resoundingly for Republican control.

 

[Puffnstuff]

More important for what aim? To destroy the Republican party? I do not think that would be good for America.

Nixon didn't care so why should the current batch?

 

[Jhhnn]

Heh. The sad truth behind "Russia tried to influence our elections" is that they succeeded brilliantly. Republican politicians will never concede that point because they are the beneficiaries of it. Their voters won't, either, because they're too proud & too stubborn to admit that it affects them, that they've been had. Trump is President & he carried Repub candidates to victory on his coat tails.

And why wouldn't the Russians side with Repubs in general? They're of the same ideological bent. Russia has transformed herself into an authoritarian plutocracy of financialized capitalistic greed. Republicans have yet to completely succeed in this country but it's not for lack of effort.

 

[dank69]

I'm curious why no one is mentioning the Clinton Foundation's links to Russia and the Uranium deal. If Melania Trump had met with the Russians and been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for a speech, and then around the same time, people related to the Trump Foundation were involved with selling 20% of the U.S.'s uranium to Russia, it seems like the large majority of those in this subforum would be all over it.

But strangely, when it was shown that Bill Clinton did meet with the Russians and was paid that much around the time of the Uranium deal, no one is talking about it.

And before anyone tries, no this is not irrelevant. And no it doesn't matter that HRC was not president at the time or isn't currently. She was SoS and her husband is a former president. If you're going to be suspicious, you must be universally suspicious when it is warranted. In fact, these are two separate cases, but both of which all of you, so worried about our democracy, should be investigating with impunity.

Not going digging into both suspicious avenues is....silly.

And yet, there seem to be no ties between Trump and Russia. Nothing has turned up. The dossier was faked and paid for by the DNC, through a subsidiary hiring. The dossier was also used to obtain a FISA warrant for wire-tapping Trump. How are none of you talking about this? A president knowingly wiretapping a political opponent via a warrant obtained through false information, or, actually, purposefully falsified information.

Btw, Manafort's alleged crimes all happened before he joined the Trump campaign. If Trump knew about this should be investigated, but it seems like all this time and money poured into investigating Trump is a nothing-burger, and it's HRC and the Podesta Group that is most likely camp to be guilty of collusion with Russia.

Btw, you can't impeach a President until it is demonstrated that he actually did anything wrong. Cuz, ya know, constitution.

It's very obvious this forum is very left-leaning, so I'm curious if I'll get anything nearing a reasonable response.

You know why people aren't talking about Clinton-Russia-Uranium? Because that issue was made public and scrutinized years ago. Only ignorant conservative-media dittoheads like yourself actually think this is new, interesting, and/or significant.