Russia threatens U.S. over possible sanctions

[fskimospy]

Crimea asked Russia to come in for defense against Ukraine.

Russia claims that none of the forces occupying Crimea are theirs, they are just "self defense forces". If Russia's invasion is legitimate, why are they claiming to have nothing to do with it?

 

[JEDIYoda]

So you're accusing the Russians of committing war crimes now?

where do you come up with that nonsense??

 

[WelshBloke]

Crimea asked Russia to come in for defense against Ukraine.

Defence against what? What was happening in Crimea that they needed defending against?

Maybe the foreign troops surrounding the army bases? What about the foreign troops occupying state buildings?

Or maybe the foreign troops shooting at the Crimean military?

 

[Genx87]

CNN and Foxnews specifically have popped out for me as huge propaganda sites. They headline rumors and quote "sources" and have been doing nothing but spouting tabloid trash. They do not convey any kind of understanding on what is actually going on. I think they fail to cover either the Ukrainian or Russian point of view at all. They are just spouting propaganda to get Americans into the cold war mood again.

Swedish newspapers spent the day pointing out how this is one of the larger wars being fought in the media. The propaganda machine is in full swing from all sides. Of special note would be this idea that people are evacuating. They have been posting fake pictures or mislabeled pictures.

I think your best bet for news on the subject is going to be multiple sources. If you read from multiple international sources it becomes very clear how poorly some sources are covering this. Especially CNN and Foxnews.

Oh absolutely. I have been trying to get a collection of sources. Especially from outside the US because our media is just horrible. But I am not going to go link stories for spatiallyaware to learn about Russia troops outside their bases in Crimea. Google is his friend.

 

[Nintendesert]

where do you come up with that nonsense??

Google?

 

[theeedude]

Russia claims that none of the forces occupying Crimea are theirs, they are just "self defense forces". If Russia's invasion is legitimate, why are they claiming to have nothing to do with it?

I don't know. Maybe that's the agreement they had with the new Crimean government.

 

[JEDIYoda]

They are not sending troops to occupy the country. They have occupied specific military installations that they have funded. They did this specifically with troops without insignia as to not cause any more issues than required.

If peurto rico had some sort of uprising, do you think we wouldn't send our military down there to protect the bases? Same with mexico or anywhere else.

A lot of this has to do with the fact that yanukovych was not legally impeached. They did not get enough votes for parliament. The country is a total mess. Since there's no way to know what will end up happening, russia sent troops to specific locations to protect their assets and interests.


And LOL at "let ukraine figure this out"..... Do you have any idea of the potential for absolute chaos? Again... not saying russia is right with this, but if you don't understand the logic behind it then you really need to get your news from somewhere other than CNN.

actually that is only partially true....I think I was the first to mention on these forums that Russian commandos were in the Ukraine on I believe the 28th of February..wearing unmarked military clothing. They occupied anything that was of importance to the Russians..including the parliament building and other such places. They arrived heavily armed and several eye witness account said you could tell they were professionals--ie Russians commandos...

No the Ukrainians will not be able to sort this out it would appear....yet that is now guaranteed with the Russian involvement!

 

[theeedude]

Defence against what? What was happening in Crimea that they needed defending against?

Maybe the foreign troops surrounding the army bases? What about the foreign troops occupying state buildings?

Or maybe the foreign troops shooting at the Crimean military?

It's what's happening in Kiev that they need defending against. Government by mob rule.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Google?

This originated from RT Question More...a Russian News source....a lot of credibility there...

One person out of how many use the words -- war crimes and it actually means something to you.....
The source is a Russian News Source that even in Russia is NOT considered to be main stream...

http://rt.com/news/war-crime-ukraine-troops-425/

The self-imposed president of Ukraine Aleksandr Turchinov will be considered a “war criminal” in case he uses military force against the population of south-eastern part of Ukraine, Russia’s lower house Speaker Sergey Naryshkin reportedly warned.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't know. Maybe that's the agreement they had with the new Crimean government.

It's interesting how you view the Ukranian government as illegitimate but view the unconstitutionally created Crimean government as legitimate.

Additionally, the presence of such soldiers predates any creation of such a "government", which would make that kind of agreement impossible.

Your explanation is full of holes.

 

[theeedude]

It's interesting how you view the Ukranian government as illegitimate but view the unconstitutionally created Crimean government as legitimate.

Additionally, the presence of such soldiers predates any creation of such a "government", which would make that kind of agreement impossible.

Your explanation is full of holes.

Ukrainian government was unconstitutionally created. That is beyond dispute. There was no impeachment, nothing, it was just a violent coup.
Crimea has its own local government, congress, and Constitution. They were voted for and represent the will of the Crimean people. Regime in Kiev seized power using force, and was never voted on in Crimea. But they want to be taken seriously.

 

[fskimospy]

Ukrainian government was unconstitutionally created. That is beyond dispute. There was no impeachment, nothing, it was just a violent coup.

Crimea has its own local government, congress, and Constitution. They were voted for and represent the will of the Crimean people. Regime in Kiev seized power using force, and was never voted on in Crimea. But they want to be taken seriously.

Crimea is not a sovereign government over that territory. Any such government that claims so was unconstitutionally created. That is beyond dispute.

Still waiting for answers from you.

 

[theeedude]

Crimea is not a sovereign government over that territory. Any such government that claims so was unconstitutionally created. That is beyond dispute.

Still waiting for answers from you.

Crimea is no longer interested in the Ukrainian Constitution.
And even if it was, the Kiev regime was not Constitutionally elected, and thus not sovereign over Crimea either.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Crimea is no longer interested in the Ukrainian Constitution.

And even if it was, the Kiev regime was not Constitutionally elected, and thus not sovereign over Crimea either.

Exactly.

The current government of crimea is exactly as legal as the current new government of ukraine.

 

[fskimospy]

Crimea is no longer interested in the Ukrainian Constitution.
And even if it was, the Kiev regime was not Constitutionally elected, and thus not sovereign over Crimea either.

Irrelevant. You said that Russian troops' presence may be at the invitation of the Crimean government, which you acknowledge is unconstitutional.

So again, what are these troops in Crimea doing that are "not Russian"?

 

[theeedude]

Exactly.

The current government of crimea is exactly as legal as the current new government of ukraine.

Yes, and so it's up to Crimea to decide which government they want to follow ad give legitimacy to. Referendum is coming up on March 30th. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Genx87]

Yes, and so it's up to Crimea to decide which government they want to follow ad give legitimacy to. Referendum is coming up on March 30th. We'll just have to wait and see.

What is there to wait and see? Russian troops in crimea and the referendum's outcome is in doubt?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Irrelevant. You said that Russian troops' presence may be at the invitation of the Crimean government, which you acknowledge is unconstitutional.

So again, what are these troops in Crimea doing that are "not Russian"?

You know if people weren't likely to be screwed by all this it would be comical. Strange bedfellows indeed.

 

[theeedude]

Irrelevant. You said that Russian troops' presence may be at the invitation of the Crimean government, which you acknowledge is unconstitutional.

So again, what are these troops in Crimea doing that are "not Russian"?

Unconstitutional in Ukraine, maybe. But Crimea no longer recognizes the government of Ukraine or its Constitution.

 

[theeedude]

What is there to wait and see? Russian troops in crimea and the referendum's outcome is in doubt?

Yes, it is very much in doubt. Crimea could vote for greater autonomy or independence, or neither. If Russian troops weren't in Crimea, it wouldn't be in doubt, because Ukraine would not allow the vote at all, like they don't allow Crimea to vote for its own governor, or Sevastopol to vote for its own mayor. Now it has to. I am all for international observers to monitor the vote. Ukraine is the one against it, because it would give the vote international legitimacy.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Yes, it is very much in doubt. Crimea could vote for greater autonomy or independence, or neither. If Russian troops weren't in Crimea, it wouldn't be in doubt, because Ukraine would not allow the vote at all, like they don't allow Crimea to vote for its own governor, or Sevastopol to vote for its own mayor. Now it has to. I am all for international observers to monitor the vote. Ukraine is the one against it, because it would give the vote international legitimacy.

Bingo again


The sooner you all stop listening to our Dear Leader's America channel one (CNN) the sooner this will all make sense.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

And the only reason EU even cares about hanging on to crimea and sevastopol is russian $$.

 

[AViking]

Unconstitutional in Ukraine, maybe. But Crimea no longer recognizes the government of Ukraine or its Constitution.

According to who?

 

[fskimospy]

Unconstitutional in Ukraine, maybe. But Crimea no longer recognizes the government of Ukraine or its Constitution.

Then the exact same argument could be made for the protesters in Kiev. I'm not sure why you are so stubbornly clinging to this. Russia invaded Ukraine in violation of the UN Charter, international law, and countless agreements. Period. End of story.

Russia is now trying to shield itself from international law by declaring that the troops there aren't under their control due to the weakness of their legal position. This isn't hard to figure out.

Just accept that this is an illegal occupation and move on. If you want to endorse the illegal occupation of parts of the Ukraine for other reasons you are free to do so, but don't try to lie to yourself about what the reality of the situation is.

 

[fskimospy]

You know if people weren't likely to be screwed by all this it would be comical. Strange bedfellows indeed.

It's still a little comical, maybe because I'm not a very good person.