dont believe all the propoganda you hear. Bin Laden will still hate your guts even if there was no palestinian
problem. And Saddam will still like to see you rot with his homebrew bioweapons. So dont hug your
local suicide bomber just yet.
dont believe all the propoganda you hear. Bin Laden will still hate your guts even if there was no palestinian
problem. And Saddam will still like to see you rot with his homebrew bioweapons. So dont hug your
local suicide bomber just yet.
BrunoPuntzJones
Lifer
- Feb 24, 2001
- 14,513
- 4
- 81
So...why don't they just invade? If Israel could whoop em up what's stopping them? Seems like it'd be better to lose a few thousand soldiers than the kids and women that have been/will be killed if stuff just keeps up.
Invade what? its not like they have a capital or wear "i'm a terrorist" uniforms. And what about the civilians living
there? Besides, it had already been tried in the 6 day war.
BrunoPuntzJones
Lifer
- Feb 24, 2001
- 14,513
- 4
- 81
Always see them taking their tanks into some towns, then backing out a few days later. Why not just set up shop and claim it as theirs?
Or are the pales less of a problem that I think? Is it like 1 outta 500 that don't like them, or more like 1/3? If it's just a few folks, that can be tough to get rid of, if it's half a population you could take their stuff I guess. Not like there is a cut off point. Just trying to figure out how many folks are the "bad guys" to the Israelis.
keeping soldiers and tanks in there is expensive and bad for morale. also Israel
is not good at imposing a civil administration in the territories. That is what led to
the first intefada which was legitimate (as opposed to the current one).
As for the palestinians, I think about 1 out of 1 dont like Israelis
(but relatively few are active members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad). they are taught/brainwashed to hate israelis as soon as they are born. I dont know how recently,
but there was a story about a kindergarden girl who proudly displayed her drawing
of the lynching of two Israeli reservists.
The terrorists are hard to get at because most of them are anonymous, and the well-known ones hide and move around alot. They try to stay in densely populated
areas (like Gaza city) because the death of human shields makes a good media story and
is good for propoganda.
First, I am a Republican, and one would think that Democrats would be the first to point this out, however, you have to remember that American workers were hired and paid to produce these military goods. It helps support blue collar American families when these large orders come in.
I realize that your main objective is to point out that Israel is sort of the Microsoft of ingenuity. But, your tone is certainly condecending toward the US providing these weapons as gifts to Israel. Remember, these "gifts" are actually purchasing us a base of operations and presense in the Middle East. There are a lot of "under the radar" type benefits for being there. Sure, its expensive, but understand that it is worth the price. The United States is and will be everywhere.
Damn, you say you are a Republican but you must have voted for Gore . . . better yet Nader. Since you clearly retained nothing mumbled by Bush during Campaign 2000 or etched in stone tablets by the Texas GOP . . . expand your horizons.
I didn't take the time to read the entire article, but, the title "America Is Not Rome" implies that you assume that I meant that the United States would take on an Imperialistic Rule over other countries. Rome was an Empire. The United States is not. The point that the representative is making in the article you linked is to say that we shouldn't (and even couldn't) "rule the world" by occupation (he points out our military is made to be self-defense orriented and not for conquering and holding nations).
This is not what I meant. I simply was stating that the US will have a physical presense (through alliances with OTHER NATIONS (stressing the fact that we are working with a seperate nation)) in every part of the world, and with satallites, be able to see everywhere. I don't think that the last administration was a good example of an imperialistic US (as you implied were my intentions and your qoute about voting for Gore). That is not to say that Bush is doing anything other than clean up the mess left by Clinton (and you could argue Bush Sr.) by attacking these terrorist forces and harboring nations.
I voted for Bush, btw.
Reasons why Israel doesnt want to take the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as their own.
1. Under international law the Palestinians would be Israeli responsibility, as in Israel would have to supply basic healthcare, sanitation, water, and other basics.
2. As a democratic country the Palestinians would becaume a part of Israel. That would bug the zionists who want Israel as a pure jewish state also it would totaly screw up Israeli political system because Arab Israelis would now have much much more power.
1. Under international law the Palestinians would be Israeli responsibility, as in Israel would have to supply basic healthcare, sanitation, water, and other basics.
2. As a democratic country the Palestinians would becaume a part of Israel. That would bug the zionists who want Israel as a pure jewish state also it would totaly screw up Israeli political system because Arab Israelis would now have much much more power.
Wrong, the entire Arab world had antiquated Soviet and Warsaw Pact weapons then as it does today (with the exception of Saudi Arabia, who also gets its military hardware from the US), while the Israeli military has always possessed the most modern US military hardware that was cleared for export to ally nations. You think Israel won such sweeping victories because the Arabs weren't good fighters? lol!
This is immaterial to the discussion.
Whitecloak
Diamond Member
- May 4, 2001
- 6,074
- 2
- 0
I think he is confusing the Six Day war with the Yom Kippur war. In the Yom Kippur war, you can't deny that Egypt was getting and using the latest Soviet equipment, the SAM 6's at the Canal virtually shut down the vaunted Israeli airforce so effective in the Six Day war, they were getting Soviet advisors, and even getting a portion of the Soviet Air Force. On the Syrian side, the tank units completely over-ran the Israelis on the Golan, with their tank forces well outnumbering the Israelis, and should have been on their way to Tel Aviv. For some strange reason they stopped, giving the Israelis a needed breather to regroup and fight them back.
The Israelis toughed out the Yom Kippur war on their own, only late in the picture after the Israelis were able to recoup their losses, did the U.S. concede to an airlift to resupply. Keep in mind that at the time Nixon was not a friend to the Israelis and the State Department was earnestly trying to salvage a relationship with the Arabs to fend off an oil embargo.
Hey at least you read the title . . . forget the imperialist bluster for a moment. Just say "nation-building" repeat it several times . . . the nausea will go away with repetition. We're not very good at nation-building; hell Haiti sticks to our soles like fresh dog poop after billions and billions of resources and decades of meddling. But success stories . . . Germany, Japan, Korea . . . what do they have in common tens of thousands of US troops, billions-trillions of taxpayer dollars, and we're STILL hanging around decades later. Can you imagine what Afghanistan will look like in 10 years? How about Iraq? What do you think the going rate is for functioning, democratic governments in the Middle East? How about time horizons?
Global influence is a good thing. But we need friends and allies not patrons. A Marshall Plan for Africa is a great idea especially since we financed decades of civil unrest b/c we hated the Soviets. But ultimately Africans have to decide they can live together before it will ever emerge from the scourge of poverty, AIDS, and warfare.
Our foreign policy lacks logic. It is goal-directed but concept poor. Two of our best buddies Pakistan and India; absolutely hate each other. Our top friend, Israel, the only legitimately elected leader other than Turkey is systematically denying human rights to the majority population in occupied lands. Our next best friend is a dictator/president who seized power during a crime. Our greatest enemy, Iraq, used to be our best friend b/c our greatest enemy of Iran . . . they still don't like us. Then again we are advocating overthrowing the legimately elected represented government in both countries . . . granted there's nothing legitimate about Iraq.
BrunoPuntzJones
Lifer
- Feb 24, 2001
- 14,513
- 4
- 81
The Arab forces have always had a select few modern Soviet weapons, but that is a far cry from the 'ground-up' modernization and support that Isreal has benefitted from via Western money. If you've got the best available Soviet SAMS, that isn't going to mean a whole lot overall when your soldiers are lacking shoes or aren't properly trained because you've spent an inordinate portion of your available funds on acquiring a few modern weapons.
You could give a country the best available fighters, but with no money for extensive training of your pilots, maintanence crews, munitions crews, air defense radar and tracking crews, etc. they're not effective.
Israel has never had to worry about finding adequate funds for the entire spectrum of military readiness and capability - never.
I'm not making a value judgement here. The United States gives economic aid to many Arab nations as long as they don't use it for military reasons and to support extremism. We have promised them even more if they would only stop threatening Israel.
I'm simply answering what should be a rhetorical question: "Why don't the two sides just go to war?" Because there would be NO contest, it would be a turkey shoot. I'm all for two opposing sides resolving a conflict by fighting it out until the last man is standing, until they find some adversarial respect for one another, upon which better relations can be built, or until they just get sick and tired of killing each other and start talking.
But I cannot give my support to what would amount to a slaughter.
After the Arabs are thrown out of Gaza and Judea and Samaria which you refer to as the ever so propagandic "West Bank" it will be settled by Jews. This reminds me when America built a sewer system for Egypt, the thing was clogged within a week. You can give all the health and sanitation to the Arabs, but their incestuous relations will always guarantee genetic defects.
What "Democratic country"? What are you talking about? Arabs cannot govern democracy, I think they've proven this fact time and time again.
I don't "think" so, this is quite obvious. Israel has the most powerful army in the world per capita. In all wars the Arabs ran like cowards in shame. This is why they attack women and children, because they know that if they go up against the military might of the genious Israeli army, they would be devastated and even lose more land.
Not only are the Arabs not good fighters, history has shown that they are the biggest cowards. Just like when Muhammad broke the signed treaty with the Jewish Quraish Tribe and attacked them when they thought they had peace with them so they weren't ready. This is acceptable in the Koran BTW, to lie to the Kafir untill u are powerful enough to defeat them. This is why Israel's treacherous "treaty" with Egypt and Jordan are worthless. In fact Mubarak exclaimed recently "For 10 billion dollars I will start a war with Israel", whilst Egypt currently as-we-speak allows underground tunnels to be built to transfer weapons to the Arab squatters living in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, and Jordan allows cross border hezbollah mortar attacks into Israel's cities.
True, thanks almost entirely to the United States and the UK, not to Israel.
haha, I'd like to see you go up against a .50cal machine gun with a handful of rocks, you'd ruin your third pair of drawers this month.
Retreating to save your life because you don't have a fighting chance in hell against a modern military is not cowardice. If I were deprived of all weaponry except backwards implements I had to make in my basement, no I certainly would not go toe-to-toe with a half dozen soldiers armed to the teeth with modern weaponry (paid for by someone else). Doing so would be suicide, and in a war, committing suicide without inflicting at least SOME damage to the enemy before you go out is simply a meaningless and unproductive way to lose one's life.
Which requires more cowardice? To lob tank shells into family homes from the safety and comfort of an armored vehicle against which your enemy possesses no effective weapons, drop bombs onto family homes from the safety and comfort of aircraft against which your enemy has no effective weapons, mow down a group of rock-throwing teens with a .30 caliber machine gun from the safety and comfort of an armored vehicle against which your enemy has very few effective weapons, or to strap explosives to one's self, travel through communities littered with dangers, pitfalls, and soldiers looking to kill you, find a target and use one's body as a weapon against your enemy in an act that guarantees your death?
I don't know where you get your notions of 'cowardice' and 'bravery', but where I come from, killing others without any risk to one's self is cowardice, bravery is killing while also taking great risk to one's self.
MadRat
Lifer
- Oct 14, 1999
- 11,999
- 307
- 126
<<I think he is confusing the Six Day war with the Yom Kippur war. In the Yom Kippur war, you can't deny that Egypt was getting and using the latest Soviet equipment, the SAM 6's at the Canal virtually shut down the vaunted Israeli airforce so effective in the Six Day war, they were getting Soviet advisors, and even getting a portion of the Soviet Air Force.>>
The Isrealis were using the same lessons they learned from 1967 in 1973 and they didn't work per se. The tactics were changed and the losses were minimized. The differences in the SA-6 launchers of 1973 and the SA-2 batteries of 1967 was the mobility factor. SA-2 sites were easy to distinguish from the landscape and were not integrated into a coordinated air defense plan. The SA-6 were used in a much more aggressive manner and they were intentionally hidden from view, a lesson they should have learned back in the 1967 campaign. Besides that the SA-2 were radar-guided beam-rider missiles susceptible to chaff and radar jamming, while the SA-6 were semi-active radar-guided command-fire missiles that are much less prone to countermeasures. The SA-6 launchers were readily slain by anti-radar missiles when America rushed them to Isreal.
<<On the Syrian side, the tank units completely over-ran the Israelis on the Golan, with their tank forces well outnumbering the Israelis, and should have been on their way to Tel Aviv. For some strange reason they stopped, giving the Israelis a needed breather to regroup and fight them back.>>
The Syrians lacked night tactics and tried to hold their ground until morning. The Isrealis crept silently in the darkness to close proximity to the Syrians then hunted their enemy with powerful flashlights on the barrels of their tanks. Its been a decade or more since I read an eye-witness account but it is a very entertaining story. At close range it was like having laser pointers on their tank barrels, only this was before the idea of laser designators... Add in the use of anti-tank rockets by Isreali infantry and what should have been a one-side invasion turned into a defensive rout.
The Isrealis were using the same lessons they learned from 1967 in 1973 and they didn't work per se. The tactics were changed and the losses were minimized. The differences in the SA-6 launchers of 1973 and the SA-2 batteries of 1967 was the mobility factor. SA-2 sites were easy to distinguish from the landscape and were not integrated into a coordinated air defense plan. The SA-6 were used in a much more aggressive manner and they were intentionally hidden from view, a lesson they should have learned back in the 1967 campaign. Besides that the SA-2 were radar-guided beam-rider missiles susceptible to chaff and radar jamming, while the SA-6 were semi-active radar-guided command-fire missiles that are much less prone to countermeasures. The SA-6 launchers were readily slain by anti-radar missiles when America rushed them to Isreal.
<<On the Syrian side, the tank units completely over-ran the Israelis on the Golan, with their tank forces well outnumbering the Israelis, and should have been on their way to Tel Aviv. For some strange reason they stopped, giving the Israelis a needed breather to regroup and fight them back.>>
The Syrians lacked night tactics and tried to hold their ground until morning. The Isrealis crept silently in the darkness to close proximity to the Syrians then hunted their enemy with powerful flashlights on the barrels of their tanks. Its been a decade or more since I read an eye-witness account but it is a very entertaining story. At close range it was like having laser pointers on their tank barrels, only this was before the idea of laser designators... Add in the use of anti-tank rockets by Isreali infantry and what should have been a one-side invasion turned into a defensive rout.
db
Lifer
- Dec 6, 1999
- 10,575
- 292
- 126
Neither side is a saint nor blameless.
However, Sharon is accomplishing what he wants: legitamacy for Isreal, and the opposite for the Palistinians.
And he does not care if innocent Isrealies have to die to get that point across. In that regard Sharon and Hamas have a beautiful relationship.
However, Sharon is accomplishing what he wants: legitamacy for Isreal, and the opposite for the Palistinians.
And he does not care if innocent Isrealies have to die to get that point across. In that regard Sharon and Hamas have a beautiful relationship.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 22K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 411
Facebook
Twitter