Rudy Giuliani just obliterated the goal posts on Trump-Russia collusion

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/Rudy-Giuliani-just-obliterated-the-goal-posts-on-13116506.php

Rudy is now saying that collusion isn't a crime.

"Trump's lawyer/spokesman Rudolph Giuliani appeared on Fox News's and CNN's morning shows on Monday to downplay the idea that colluding with the Russians would have even been illegal and to argue against strawmen."

They keep throwing shit on the walls to see what may stick.

And this:
""I'm happy to tell Mueller that Trump wasn't at the Trump Tower meeting," Giuliani said. Asked how he can say that, he said: "Because Cohen is a liar, and Don Jr. says he wasn't there."

Ha ha ha ha. That bar for trump truth just keeps dropping.
How low can rudy go?

Stay tuned.
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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Not every one agrees with your statement.
https://www.businessinsider.com/collusion-russia-trump-crime-2017-6

"Former White House counsel Robert Bauer, now a partner at the law firm of Perkins Coie , said the view that collusion would not be a crime is "flawed."

"It fails to consider the potential campaign finance violations, as suggested by the facts so far known, under existing law," Bauer wrote on Just Security earlier this month. "These violations are criminally enforceable."

Bauer pointed to a campaign finance law that prohibits foreign nationals from providing "anything of value … in connection with" an election."
 
Feb 4, 2009
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I heard a summary of Rudy’s words today. He’s moved from Trump knew nothing of the Russian meeting in Trump tower to Trump wasn’t at the Russian meeting in Trump Tower
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Rudy would argue that it wasn't against the Law for the President to Murder someone in Time Square, if it was necessary.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
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grammarist.com/usage/conspiracy-vs-collusion/

Conspiracy describes two or more people secretly plotting an action, usually but not limited to a harmful or illegal action. Conspiracy may refer to the plot itself or the act of planning of the plot. Conspiracy comes from the Old French word conspiracie, which means plot or conspiracy. The plural form is conspiracies, the verb form is conspire.

Collusion describes two or more people secretly plotting an illegal or fraudulent action. Collusion may refer to the plot itself or the act of planning the plot. Collusion comes from the Old French word, collusion. The verb form is collude. Remember, conspiracy describes a secret plot that may or may not be illegal, collusion is always an illegal or fraudulent plot.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Not every one agrees with your statement.
https://www.businessinsider.com/collusion-russia-trump-crime-2017-6

"Former White House counsel Robert Bauer, now a partner at the law firm of Perkins Coie , said the view that collusion would not be a crime is "flawed."

"It fails to consider the potential campaign finance violations, as suggested by the facts so far known, under existing law," Bauer wrote on Just Security earlier this month. "These violations are criminally enforceable."

Bauer pointed to a campaign finance law that prohibits foreign nationals from providing "anything of value … in connection with" an election."


That would be campaign law violations. "Colluding" is a crime proper for violations of antitrust laws and price fixing.

Do people call a prosecutor who brings a charge of collusion otherwise? Fired.

It matters because Trump is denying something completely irrelevant and we are collectively gaslighting ourselves with wrong terminology. He can deny collusion with impunity, but if someone gets in his face and pushes conspiracy instead and disabuses Rudy and makes the proper crimes be directly addressed then there's no wiggle room.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
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Hey...not MY definitions...and I was actually kind of surprised at that, but I'm under the weather today...and didn't bother chasing definitions...but let's go this way instead:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a56338/trump-collusion-conspiracy/

Black's Law Dictionary defines collusion as "a deceitful agreement or compact between two or more persons, for the one party to bring an action against the other for some evil purpose, as to defraud a third party..." A conspiracy, on the other hand, is defined as "a combination or confederacy between two or more persons formed for the purposes of committing, by their joint efforts, some unlawful or criminal act, or some act which is innocent in itself, but becomes unlawful when done by the concerted action of the conspirators." Got it? You can have collusion without having a criminal conspiracy, but you can't have a criminal conspiracy without some sort of collusion.

There is no federal crime of collusion. No one is sitting in a dank prison cell whining to his cellmate that he is innocent of collusion. And if you ask 10 lawyers or former government officials, you are likely to get 10 different answers about the accuracy of its role in describing the Trump-Russia scandal. Iconic Watergate figure John Dean, for example, who knows a thing or two about White House conspiracies, says it's a "perfect word" to cover the crimes that may have been committed here. Others disagree. The usually sage Jonathan Turley worries about the free speech implications of what's happening. So does Eugene Volokh. Rick Hasen calls this preformed defense hooey. But can't you just see the Gorsuch-infused Supreme Court creating a new First Amendment exception for international collusion under the guise of political speech?

Let's agree, for now, that "collusion" is a political word, a media word, a polite word countless hacks have settled on because its use allows everyone to cover this catastrophe without having to actually accuse the president and his tribunes of something that sounds like a crime. "No one here engaged in a conspiracy" sounds an awful lot like: "I swear I never touched her, officer," while the phrase "There is no collusion here" sounds an awful lot like a phrase from a science book that the Secretary of Education soon will be asking school officials around the country to burn.

Each time a Trump tribune says the word "collusion" is one less time that mouthpiece has to use the word "conspiracy." And each time the word "conspiracy" is not uttered, it helps frame the fight the way the White House wants it framed. To their credit, the president's enablers and defenders have brilliantly employed the word "collusion" to emphasize, from their point of view, the political (even partisan) nature of the investigation. But it's clearly getting harder.

First, they said, there was no possible collusion. Next they said there was no clear evidence of collusion. Then they said that whatever collusion may have taken place was either unintentional or unsuccessful. Now, Kellyanne Conway and company are claiming that the only actionable collusion here must be "sustained, systemic, and furtive." Pretty soon, the company line will be that only a confession under oath of such persistent, pernicious collusion, administered live in the presence of the Pope, will suffice to render unlawful whatever happened between Trump's team and the Russians.

And then, if the day comes when we do see a conspiracy charge, or even allegations of a conspiracy, the same loud voices that have been denying the existence of collusion will pivot and say: You think collusion is hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt? Try proving the existence of a criminal conspiracy! There will be no end to the excuses, the deflections, the dodges, not after a trial or a conviction or a sentence if we ever seen one here. There are still Americans who believe that Timothy McVeigh didn't blow up the Alfred P. Murrah federal building on April 19, 1995. There are people who believe the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting was a hoax. There will always be people who refuse to believe that the president and his men were politically canoodling with the Russians before the election. (No, there is no federal crime of canoodling.)

The good news, for those of us in the rational world or those of us who simply want to understand the scope of what has happened here, is that Mueller and his team know the difference between collusion and conspiracy. If there is evidence a criminal conspiracy took place here, or if there is evidence of obstruction of justice or any other criminal conduct, Mueller will be the one to tell us so. And if there is a criminal case with this scandal at its core, ultimately it will be up to judges and jurors to separate the convenient words with the words that really matter. The deeper we get into the legal component of this story, the more it shifts from cable television to courtrooms, the less the word "collusion" will matter. The letter "c," you could say, is for context.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Did you know if you hire someone to kill on your behalf, you get charged with murder? Trump colluding with Russia's election interference would definitely include criminal acts. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is ridiculous.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
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Did you know if you hire someone to kill on your behalf, you get charged with murder? Trump colluding with Russia's election interference would definitely include criminal acts. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

Because it's straw man argument the right is using to discredit the Mueller investigation. They don't argue against conspiring because they can't but they can yell witch hunt and argue against collusion.
 

deathBOB

Senior member
Dec 2, 2007
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The focus on legal definitions is a red herring. The only body that can or will act against Trump himself is Congress, and they only need to find that his actions warrant impeachment not breach some specific law.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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The hangup on legal vs. colloquial terms is just an attempt to divert the conversation. Conspiracy is the crime, not collusion. That doesn’t change the fact that what the average person takes collusion to mean also covers conspiracy.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,060
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The hangup on legal vs. colloquial terms is just an attempt to divert the conversation. Conspiracy is the crime, not collusion. That doesn’t change the fact that what the average person takes collusion to mean also covers conspiracy.
Maybe we need to focus on the "actual orders" given to the special counsel. Did Trump make up the "collusion" talking point?
(b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI
Director James 8. Corney in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:
(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).


https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download
 
Feb 4, 2009
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It could end up like Spidey07 and the guy who killed the kid for loud music.
Spidey: he didn’t get convicted of murder so he won
Me: he got sentenced to 30 years in prison
Spidey: he didn’t get convicted of murder


So. Much. Winning!
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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That would be campaign law violations. "Colluding" is a crime proper for violations of antitrust laws and price fixing.

Do people call a prosecutor who brings a charge of collusion otherwise? Fired.

It matters because Trump is denying something completely irrelevant and we are collectively gaslighting ourselves with wrong terminology. He can deny collusion with impunity, but if someone gets in his face and pushes conspiracy instead and disabuses Rudy and makes the proper crimes be directly addressed then there's no wiggle room.

The word "collusion" in this context was never meant to be a description of a particular crime. It's a description of certain behavior which may or may not constitute one or more crimes. The entire argument "collusion is not a crime" is thus a straw man.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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The word "collusion" in this context was never meant to be a description of a particular crime. It's a description of certain behavior which may or may not constitute one or more crimes. The entire argument "collusion is not a crime" is thus a straw man.

One which has been working well to Trump's advantage.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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22


One which has been working well to Trump's advantage.

Trump is being protected by a fanatically delusional base. Arguing "collusion is not a crime" after repeatedly arguing "no collusion" isn't helping him. It isn't hurting him with his base, but then nothing ever will.