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rubbing alcohol as a disinfectant

Talcite

Senior member
Ok so I've been wondering how alcohol manages to kill most the bacteria and viruses it comes across. That's why a doctor disinfects your skin before injecting you with something right?

I really have 2 questions. How does alcohol manage to kill stuff? what's the biology/chemistry behind it?

And why hasn't anything developed a resistance to alcohol yet? You see staph infections with resistance to every antibiotic ever discovered, but you never hear of bugs that can thrive in 95% alcohol

btw, rubbing alcohol i've seen is usually isopropyl, or things like it.
 
The resistance we're used to thinking about (to say, penicillin) usually involve changes to or acquisition of one single gene. Usually the resistant bacteria has either changed the target of the antibiotic, acquired a gene that destroys the antibiotic or has a way to exclude the antibiotic from the cytoplasm.

Alchohol though, isn't a drug with a single target, it's a hydrophobic solvent. It's a strong denaturant to both the cell membrane and the majority of proteins in the cell. A number of proteins probably crash right out of solution on treatment, maybe even nucleic acids. To overcome this, the cell would have to change it's entire repertoire of proteins, all at once and probably it's membrane lipid composition (drastically) as well. In the incredibly unlikely event that these things happen, the changes would probably not be compatible with surviving in an aqueous environment.

There are bacterial endospores that are highly resistant to treatment with alcohol, and you might expect repeated exposure and selection to render them more resistant. But that's another story.
 
Great answer, Gibsons. I had wondered about this too. Thanks for taking the time to write that.
 
Its a completely different type of thing. For example Humans can become immune to diseases like chicken pox etc, but you can't develop and immunity to sulfuric acid....

Drugs work on bacteria by shutting down one of their metabolic pathways, or atacking a very specific chemical in the cell wall etc.. Alcohol, along with a ton of other chemicals is toxic due to its reactivity with the chemicals that make up the bacteria, but obviously it takes WAY more of it to kill a bacteria cell. The whole point of an antibiotic is that it kills bateria and not you, wheras an organic solvent will kill most anything on the planet when it is bathed in it like the bacteria are. I mean if you are an organic life form and you are exposed to something which disolves organic matter then that is a bad thing...
 
icic... So there's very little/no chance of an organism evolving to the point where it has immunity? I mean cause early bacteria were anaerobe obligates, and when oxygen came, they all died, but some had evolved to the point where they were immune.

So what is the actual chemical reaction that ends up breaking down organic matter?

Oh and why does alcohol not burn skin/our stomach linings or stuff like that then?
 
Our skin is ALOT thicker than the membrane of a bacteria, so it will take considerably longer for it to get into the body and do any damage. Also, I wouldn't suggest drinking 70% isopropanol, or ethanol for that matter. The "chemical reaction" will likely take several pathways the most destructive is likely protiens denaturing. Obviously in humans isopopanol will disrupt the signal pathways in the brain and death would occur of that before the concentrations were high enough to start killing normal cells.

But the point is that drugs have specific areas of attack where this is just a chemical reaction that will destroy alot of chemicals. So, for instance 1 molocule of ricin is enough to kill a human cell becasue it catalizes a permanent change in the rhibosomes of humans (but it only effect one increadibly specific chemical bond and fits like a key into a lock). This is how many drugs work, they block the active sites of very specific protiens. It takes concentrations many order of magniture larger (like a million times) for something like alchohol to kill you.
 
Originally posted by: Talcite
Ok so I've been wondering how alcohol manages to kill most the bacteria and viruses it comes across. That's why a doctor disinfects your skin before injecting you with something right?

I really have 2 questions. How does alcohol manage to kill stuff? what's the biology/chemistry behind it?

And why hasn't anything developed a resistance to alcohol yet? You see staph infections with resistance to every antibiotic ever discovered, but you never hear of bugs that can thrive in 95% alcohol

btw, rubbing alcohol i've seen is usually isopropyl, or things like it.

Alcohol is not really a disinfectant - it clears just about 60% of the bacteria on the skin. It is better than nothing, anyway, and there are other advantages:
people expect it (it's like a time-honoured tradition)
it cleans
by evaporation, it cools a bit the skin, so the sting is less painful
 
Originally posted by: Talcite
icic... So there's very little/no chance of an organism evolving to the point where it has immunity? I mean cause early bacteria were anaerobe obligates, and when oxygen came, they all died, but some had evolved to the point where they were immune.

So what is the actual chemical reaction that ends up breaking down organic matter?

Oh and why does alcohol not burn skin/our stomach linings or stuff like that then?

Think of it this way:

The antibiotic resistance is like a person slowly develping a resistance to a snake poison by injecting himself.

The alcohol is like a person trying to gain a resistance to his head being crushed by a sledgehammer by having someone hit him as hard as they can.

Sometimes you can survive the first one and then pass that on, you don't get to do that with the sledgehammer.
 
Originally posted by: Yossarian451

Think of it this way:

The antibiotic resistance is like a person slowly develping a resistance to a snake poison by injecting himself.

The alcohol is like a person trying to gain a resistance to his head being crushed by a sledgehammer by having someone hit him as hard as they can.

Sometimes you can survive the first one and then pass that on, you don't get to do that with the sledgehammer.

That's a very inaccurate analogy.

Antibiotics work on one (or a few) specific mechanism. They are highly active, so work effectively in very low concentration.

Because antibiotics work on one mechanism, and rely on their precise moelcular shape to block that mechanism effectively, any minor change in the molecular mechanism.

Essentially, imagine the biochmeical functions of a bacteria as a complex clockwork mechanism. The antibiotic is a precisely shaped key that can jam the mechanism. You only need one key, in the right place, to totally jam the mechanism. Resitance develops because a minor change in the mechanism stops the key from fitting.

Alternatively, you can get resistance due to a filter being put up around the mechanism through whcih the key can't go; dummy targets that soak up and destroy the antibiotic keys, etc.

Disinfectants are non-specific, they affect all biological processes, to a relatively small extent. They need to be delievered in high concentration (alcohol 70%, or bleach 10% solutions).

In the analogy above, imagine disinfectants are like syrup or molasses. They coat the whole mechanism, slowing it down (but not totally destroying it, unless they entirely flood it). There is no clever fit, so minor changes to the mechanism won't stop it from being jammed. It doesn't matter how many changes are made - the disinfectant will still work.

And, because the disinfectants are usually delivered at high concentration, there is little scope for bacteria to develop a system capable of filtering out the disinfectant.

So, in the case of antibiotics, a minor variation in the mechanism (which may in itself, be just a variant of equivalent performance, or even a minor disadvatage) can stop the 'key' from binding, and become a powerful selective advantage.

In the case of disinfectants, there is no single (or even small group) of changes that have a meaningful effect on sensitivity. So, little selective advantage through which resistance can develop.

Originally posted by: Talcite
So what is the actual chemical reaction that ends up breaking down organic matter?

Lots of them.

Alcohol tends to change the solubility of different proteins (due to alterations in the hydrogen bonding). There is therefore a tendency for proteins to coagulate and precipitate out of solution. (In the same way that cooking causes egg albumen to coagulate, and turn from a colourless, clear liquid into the characteristic white semi-solid 'white' - In fact if you drop an egg into 100% alcohol, the proteins will coagulate in much the same way).

Bleach, peroxide and other oxidisers, cause production of free radicals - these highly reactive intermediates will react will all manner of biological compounds, proteins, DNA, fats and oils,.

Detergents, (including quaternary ammonium compounds) tend to generally interfere with solubility in a similar way to alcohol.

Oh and why does alcohol not burn skin/our stomach linings or stuff like that then?

It does.

In the case of skin, the outer layers of the skin are dead cells which have turned into dry flakes of waterproof/solvent proof keratin. This keeps the delicate inner layers of the skin protected from the alchohol.

Hold neat alcohol in your mouth and it will burn it, or at least start causing the skin to blister and peel off.

You don't get 100% alcohol for drinking, and it will get diluted by the fluid in your stomach. And, the stomach is protected by a thick layer of mucus - and the lining continually replaces itself - so in general, you won't get much serious damage.

In the case of bleach, peroxide, or other chemicals, you can get severe burns of the mouth, oesophagus and stomach.



 
Originally posted by: Talcite
And why hasn't anything developed a resistance to alcohol yet?

There are certain limits to adaptation you know. Have you seen any animal that grown natural protection against flamethrowers or thermonuclear warheads?

 
Originally posted by: Kyanzes
Originally posted by: Talcite
And why hasn't anything developed a resistance to alcohol yet?

There are certain limits to adaptation you know. Have you seen any animal that grown natural protection against flamethrowers or thermonuclear warheads?

Lol... well i'm sure humans can't, but that's mostly because DNA replication is relatively accurate, and we have a small population with a small gene pool.

If you were talking about RNA replication, like in some primitive bacteria or viruses, then you'd have a fairly high chance of surviving a flamethrower or thermonuclear warhead... provided the base population was large enough, and that it was constantly evolving.

Anyways, these replies have been great. Thanks alot guys. You answered all my questions.
 
Originally posted by: BrownTown
The whole point of an antibiotic is that it kills bateria and not you, wheras an organic solvent will kill most anything on the planet when it is bathed in it like the bacteria are. I mean if you are an organic life form and you are exposed to something which disolves organic matter then that is a bad thing...


Don't they store organs and bodies in alcohol?
 
Originally posted by: Talcite
You might be thinking about formaldahyde

There are a number of different fixatives, but formaldehyde and paraformaldehyde are pretty common, as is phenol. But there's also some use of alcohol, gluteraldehyde, etc. Most fixatives are definitely not something you'd want on your skin.
 
Originally posted by: Gibsons
Alchohol though, isn't a drug with a single target, it's a hydrophobic solvent. It's a strong denaturant to both the cell membrane and the majority of proteins in the cell. A number of proteins probably crash right out of solution on treatment, maybe even nucleic acids.

Post is right on, I'll just confirm that isopropyl alcohol (along with ethanol, isopropanol, I would assume other forms of alcohol) doesn't degrade DNA, in fact, it's usually used to purify DNA.
 
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Our skin is ALOT thicker than the membrane of a bacteria, so it will take considerably longer for it to get into the body and do any damage. Also, I wouldn't suggest drinking 70% isopropanol, or ethanol for that matter. The "chemical reaction" will likely take several pathways the most destructive is likely protiens denaturing. Obviously in humans isopopanol will disrupt the signal pathways in the brain and death would occur of that before the concentrations were high enough to start killing normal cells.

But the point is that drugs have specific areas of attack where this is just a chemical reaction that will destroy alot of chemicals. So, for instance 1 molocule of ricin is enough to kill a human cell becasue it catalizes a permanent change in the rhibosomes of humans (but it only effect one increadibly specific chemical bond and fits like a key into a lock). This is how many drugs work, they block the active sites of very specific protiens. It takes concentrations many order of magniture larger (like a million times) for something like alchohol to kill you.

Drinking 70% ethanol can be done 🙂

/OT
 
You can drink 100% ethanol, too. Just not much of it. And it will give you a terrible hangover if you're not careful. But it has no taste so it's good for mixed drinks.

We used to make jello shots out of agarose gel & lab grade ethanol. Got ya drunk in a hurry. (If you're going to try it yourself, make sure you use regular ethanol - NOT denatured alcohol.)
 
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