RTG3rd March – Will Discuss Polaris, Fury X2, VR, DirectX 12 and More

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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Pariah said:
Did you miss the point they were making that the focus of mobile market was the driving force for the direction of the entire market?
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Well then, it'll be good to see some more focus brought back to us PC peasants then.

I'll give you a prediction. If Zen actually competes with Intel you will see either a drop in pricing, or markedly improved performance, or both. And if AMD does pull this off then you tell me if Intel's research money was well spent all these years.

Improving the performance at the same power draw is improving efficiency. The two things are in no way mutually exclusive. They are actually the same.
 
P

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
3DVagabond said:
Well then, it'll be good to see some more focus brought back to us PC peasants then.

I'll give you a prediction. If Zen actually competes with Intel you will see either a drop in pricing, or markedly improved performance, or both. And if AMD does pull this off then you tell me if Intel's research money was well spent all these years.

Improving the performance at the same power draw is improving efficiency. The two things are in no way mutually exclusive. They are actually the same.
Click to expand...

Kaby Lake is scheduled to be released in the same time frame as Zen. If Zen is able to compete with Kaby Lake, that would be in the running for one of the biggest shocks this industry has ever seen. I'd like to see it, but I certainly wouldn't bet anything on it.
 
S

Silverforce11

Lifer
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
76
Pariah said:
Kaby Lake is scheduled to be released in the same time frame as Zen. If Zen is able to compete with Kaby Lake, that would be in the running for one of the biggest shocks this industry has ever seen. I'd like to see it, but I certainly wouldn't bet anything on it.
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Which isn't the point.

The point is with actual competition, Intel wouldn't be in a position to sell to a tiny die that would be LOW-end category as expensive upper mid-range SKUs.

I was disgusted seeing the die size of Skylake and looking at the price they want for it.

They could easily make a bigger chip, 200mm2 - 240mm2, and selling that for $330-400, with much higher performance for PC users and still profit.

But they don't want to and they don't have to, and so they give you a tiny chip for those prices instead. Maximizing profits.

Really, it's very hard to reason with people who think corporate monopoly is not a poor outcome for consumers.
 
Q

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
126
Well its a bit more complex than that :) A big part of why they haven't had made it bigger is that they can't think of any reason for the majority of their customers to want the bigger.

The massive premium they're charging for core is definitely getting harder to justify over time though, and this is only going to get worse.
 
T

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
Silverforce11 said:
Which isn't the point.

The point is with actual competition, Intel wouldn't be in a position to sell to a tiny die that would be LOW-end category as expensive upper mid-range SKUs.

I was disgusted seeing the die size of Skylake and looking at the price they want for it.

They could easily make a bigger chip, 200mm2 - 240mm2, and selling that for $330-400, with much higher performance for PC users and still profit.

But they don't want to and they don't have to, and so they give you a tiny chip for those prices instead. Maximizing profits.

Really, it's very hard to reason with people who think corporate monopoly is not a poor outcome for consumers.
Click to expand...

Because manufacturing on the latest bleeding edge node doesn't involve a premium...

Simply using die size for what a company should charge without include R&D and other factors is utterly ridiculous.

You're not just paying for the raw cost of hardware are you guys kidding me?
 
B

Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
1,018
91
Pariah said:
Did you miss the point they were making that the focus of mobile market was the driving force for the direction of the entire market?
Click to expand...

Sure because they have no competition in desktop, and ARM has most of mobile so they are trying to compete there.
 
ShintaiDK

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
Bacon1 said:
Sure because they have no competition in desktop, and ARM has most of mobile so they are trying to compete there.
Click to expand...

The world moved to performance/watt the last 10 years. This is what the 99% crowd wants.
 
S

Silverforce11

Lifer
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
76
tential said:
Because manufacturing on the latest bleeding edge node doesn't involve a premium...

Simply using die size for what a company should charge without include R&D and other factors is utterly ridiculous.

You're not just paying for the raw cost of hardware are you guys kidding me?
Click to expand...

Explain the record margins and profits.

Don't think for a second that Intel is selling a low-end size chip for upper mid-range prices is because they are struggling to cope with R&D costs...

They do it because they can, because it maximizes margins and profits.

If I were running a business and I had no competition, I would do the exact same thing. I would stagnate the hell out of the market, giving itty bitty improvements while jacking up the price and laughing to the bank. Wouldn't you do the same? It's just logical.
 
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G

Game_dev

Member
Mar 2, 2016
133
0
0
Silverforce11 said:
Explain the record margins and profits.

Don't think for a second that Intel is selling a low-end size chip for upper mid-range prices is because they are struggling to cope with R&D costs...

They do it because they can, because it maximizes margins and profits.

If I were running a business and I had no competition, I would do the exact same thing. I would stagnate the hell out of the market, giving itty bitty improvements while jacking up the price and laughing to the bank. Wouldn't you do the same? It's just logical.
Click to expand...

It's the same situation in the video card market. NVIDIA has no competition. They have record profits and margins. They are able to use smaller, cheaper, lower power chips because AMD is so far behind.
 
Mahigan

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
0
Game_dev said:
It's the same situation in the video card market. NVIDIA has no competition. They have record profits and margins. They are able to use smaller, cheaper, lower power chips because AMD is so far behind.
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The irony is that for compute (and direct compute) NVIDIA are so far behind. Heck for multi-engine support, NVIDIA are in the dark ages.

So all that added hardware redundancy makes GCN quite power hungry when compared to the simple designs NVIDIA have been releasing since Kepler.

Pascal is re-adding the FP64 units NVIDIA dropped from Maxwell in order to keep the cards power usage down. So we're seeing NVIDIA heading into the direction of making more power hungry GPUs. Of course 16nm finfet will off set some of that gained power usage.

It remains to be seen what changes Polaris will have under the hood in terms of compute tweaks.
 
ShintaiDK

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
Silverforce11 said:
Explain the record margins and profits.

Don't think for a second that Intel is selling a low-end size chip for upper mid-range prices is because they are struggling to cope with R&D costs...

They do it because they can, because it maximizes margins and profits.

If I were running a business and I had no competition, I would do the exact same thing. I would stagnate the hell out of the market, giving itty bitty improvements while jacking up the price and laughing to the bank. Wouldn't you do the same? It's just logical.
Click to expand...

Why dont you tell us what they should release according to you? And I assume the company have to do the work pro bono as well not to disappoint you.

The S7 and iPhone is also overpriced and obviously got no competition, right?
 
Arachnotronic

Arachnotronic

Lifer
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,012
126
Silverforce11 said:
If you think its honest to compare CPU to iPhone or S7 for pricing/perceived value, you don't understand: Ecosystem.
Click to expand...

Bro, what ecosystem does Samsung have? None. It's commodity Android. Even iOS, which I will say is a better OS w/ richer apps, doesn't have some ridiculous commanding lead over Android in terms of app selection or anything like that.
 
ShintaiDK

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
Silverforce11 said:
If you think its honest to compare CPU to iPhone or S7 for pricing/perceived value, you don't understand: Ecosystem.
Click to expand...

You already compare 2 parts you dont understand in terms of business model and demand. Price and die size while ignoring everything else.

The only difference is you see a value in a smartphone that cost 300$ to make and sell for 700-900$. You dont think a Fury X or 980TI at 650$ is overpriced do you? The GPU itself cost what, 50-75$ of the line. And what do you think Polaris 10 and 11 will cost per mm2 vs 28nm products?

Arachnotronic said:
Bro, what ecosystem does Samsung have? None. It's commodity Android. Even iOS, which I will say is a better OS w/ richer apps, doesn't have some ridiculous commanding lead over Android in terms of app selection or anything like that.
Click to expand...

Exactly. :thumbsup:
 
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S

Silverforce11

Lifer
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
76
ShintaiDK said:
Price and die size while ignoring everything else.
Click to expand...

It's quite simple. Record profit and margins. Selling a tiny chip for very high prices.

Does not take a genius.

Hard to see why a gamer/consumer would defend that or even celebrate it. Maybe if you're a shareholder I could understand.
 
ShintaiDK

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
Silverforce11 said:
It's quite simple. Record profit and margins. Selling a tiny chip for very high prices.

Does not take a genius.

Hard to see why a gamer/consumer would defend that or even celebrate it. Maybe if you're a shareholder I could understand.
Click to expand...

So what's different with the S7 and iPhone again?

I dont celebrate it, but I do understand that people want to get paid for their jobs and the company investing in the future.
 
ShintaiDK

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
AtenRa said:
For what ??

For a single core ??? yes

For a Multi-Core CPU not.
Click to expand...

Neither does it for ST performance in a multicore.

8 cores at 3.3Ghz and 140W. Or 4 cores at 4Ghz at 91W.

Its no different than for GPUs either.
 
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