Rove and Libby discussed Plame

RightIsWrong

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Apr 29, 2005
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If it looks like a conspiricy and smells like a conspiricy....then it must be a conspiricy. I can just imagine Rove with his smug look lying about not talking to anyone about this and then being shown Novak's testimony implicating him. Then he tries to sell Fitzpatrick on the bs that he ONLY spoke to Novak but didn't mention her by name or know that she was an operative. Then comes Cooper's testimony implimenting him further. Oh, yeah....that's right...I think that I might have mentioned it in passing to him. But I swear....that's it. Now comes Libby's testimony.

There are, at the very least, three seperate incidences of Rove discussing this woman. Are the supporters still ardantly saying that he is without any guilt in this whole fiasco?

Linky

Rove, Libby Discussed CIA Operative

By JOHN SOLOMON
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Prosecutors have gathered evidence that top White House aides Karl Rove and I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby exchanged information about their contacts with reporters regarding Valerie Plame in the days just before the CIA officer's cover was blown.

Rove told grand jurors it was even possible he first learned inside the White House from Libby that Bush administration critic Joe Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, according to people directly familiar with the testimony of President Bush's closest political adviser.

The disclosure is the first known intersection between two central figures in the criminal investigation into the leak of Plame's identity.

Rove testified that his discussions with Libby before Plame's identity was made public were limited to information reporters had passed them, the people said. Some evidence prosecutors have gathered conflicts with Libby's account of dealings with reporters.

Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald must determine whether the contacts were part of a concerted effort to illegally divulge Plame's CIA identity and undercut her husband's public criticism of the Iraq war or simply the trading of news and rumors that typically occurs inside the White House.

The prosecutor also is examining whether any witnesses gave false testimony or withheld information from the investigation. His spokesman, Randall Samborn, declined comment Wednesday.

The Rove-Libby contacts were confirmed to The Associated Press by people directly familiar with testimony the two witnesses gave or were shown before the grand jury. All spoke solely on condition of anonymity because of the secrecy of the proceedings.

Libby's lawyer, Joseph Tate, did not return repeated phone calls this week seeking comment.

Rove and Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, have emerged as central figures in Fitzgerald's investigation because both had contacts with reporters who ultimately disclosed Plame's work for the CIA.

Federal law prohibits government officials from knowingly disclosing the identity of intelligence operatives.

Those familiar with the testimony and evidence said that during one of his grand jury appearances, Rove was shown testimony from Libby suggesting the two had discussed with each other information they had gotten about Wilson's wife from reporters in early July 2003.

Rove responded that Libby's testimony was consistent with his general recollection that he first had learned that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA from reporters or government officials who had talked with reporters.

Rove testified that he never intended any of his comments to reporters about Wilson's wife to serve as confirmation of Plame's identity.

On July 9, 2003, columnist Robert Novak told Rove he was writing a column that would report that Plame worked for the CIA, and Rove told the columnist he had heard similar information, according to his testimony.

Novak published a column the next week that said Plame worked for the CIA and had suggested that her agency send Wilson, a former ambassador, on a mission that raised questions about prewar intelligence the Bush administration used to justify invading Iraq.

Rove testified he told Libby about his contact with Novak about two days after it occurred.

In testimony shown to Rove, Libby stated Rove had told him about his contact with Novak and said he had told Rove about information he had gotten about Wilson's wife from NBC newsman Tim Russert, according to a person directly familiar with the information shown to Rove.

Prosecutors, however, have a different account from Russert. The network has said Russert told authorities he did not know about Wilson's wife's identity until it was published and therefore could not have told Libby about it.

Prosecutors also have evidence that Libby initiated the call with Russert and had initiated similar contact with another reporter, Judith Miller of The New York Times, several weeks earlier.

Rove was pressed by prosecutors on several matters, including why he failed to mention during the first of his four grand jury appearances that he also has discussed the Plame matter with a second reporter, Matt Cooper of Time magazine.

Rove testified during the first appearance about his contacts with Novak in the days before the columnist wrote about Plame. When asked generally if he had conversations with other reporters in that session, he answered no.

Rove and his lawyer subsequently discovered an e-mail Rove had sent top national security aide Stephen Hadley referencing a brief phone interview he had with Cooper.

The e-mail jogged Rove's memory and during a subsequent grand jury appearance, he volunteered his recollections about his conversation with Cooper, and his lawyer provided the e-mail to prosecutors. Cooper also wrote a story about Plame.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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Here is another interesting article that brings to question if a crime was even committed:

The Plame Game: Was This a Crime?
By Victoria Toensing and Bruce W. Sanford

Wednesday, January 12, 2005; Page A21

Why have so many people rushed to assume that a crime was committed when someone "in the administration" gave columnist Robert D. Novak the name of CIA "operative" Valerie Plame? Novak published her name while suggesting that nepotism might have lurked behind the CIA assignment of her husband, Joseph Wilson, to a job for which he was credentially challenged: The agency sent him to Niger to determine whether Iraq was interested in acquiring uranium from that country, although he was an expert neither on nuclear weapons nor on Niger.

Journalists are being threatened with jail for not testifying who gave them information about Plame -- even journalists who did not write about Plame but only talked with sources about her. Ironically, the special prosecutor has pursued this case with characteristic zeal after major publications editorialized that a full investigation and prosecution of the government source was necessary. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution even claimed that the allegations came "perilously close to treason."

It's time for a timeout on a misguided and mechanical investigation in which there is serious doubt that a crime was even committed. Federal courts have stated that a reporter should not be subpoenaed when the testimony sought is remote from criminal conduct or when there is no compelling "government interest," i.e., no crime. As two people who drafted and negotiated the scope of the 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act, we can tell you: The Novak column and the surrounding facts do not support evidence of criminal conduct.

When the act was passed, Congress had no intention of prosecuting a reporter who wanted to expose wrongdoing and, in the process, once or twice published the name of a covert agent. Novak is safe from indictment. But Congress also did not intend for government employees to be vulnerable to prosecution for an unintentional or careless spilling of the beans about an undercover identity. A dauntingly high standard was therefore required for the prosecutor to charge the leaker.

At the threshold, the agent must truly be covert. Her status as undercover must be classified, and she must have been assigned to duty outside the United States currently or in the past five years. This requirement does not mean jetting to Berlin or Taipei for a week's work. It means permanent assignment in a foreign country. Since Plame had been living in Washington for some time when the July 2003 column was published, and was working at a desk job in Langley (a no-no for a person with a need for cover), there is a serious legal question as to whether she qualifies as "covert."

The law also requires that the disclosure be made intentionally, with the knowledge that the government is taking "affirmative measures to conceal [the agent's] relationship" to the United States. Merely knowing that Plame works for the CIA does not provide the knowledge that the government is keeping her relationship secret. In fact, just the opposite is the case. If it were known on the Washington cocktail circuit, as has been alleged, that Wilson's wife is with the agency, a possessor of that gossip would have no reason to believe that information is classified -- or that "affirmative measures" were being taken to protect her cover.

There are ways of perceiving whether the government was actually taking the required necessary affirmative measures to conceal its relationship with Plame. We can look, for example, at how the CIA reacted when Novak informed the press office that he was going to publish her name. Did the general counsel call to threaten prosecution, as we know has been done to other reporters under similar circumstances? No. Did then-Director George Tenet or his deputy pick up the phone to tell Novak that the publication of her name would threaten national security and her safety, as we know is done when the CIA is serious about prohibiting publication? No. Did some high-ranking government official ask to visit Novak or the president of his newspaper syndicate to talk him out of publishing -- another common strategy to prevent a story? No.

Novak has written that the CIA person designated to talk with him replied that although Plame was probably not getting another foreign assignment, exposure "might cause difficulties if she were to travel abroad." He certainly never told Novak that Plame would be endangered. Such a meager response falls far legally shy of "affirmative measures."

There is even more telling CIA conduct about Plame's status. According to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence's "Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq," when the agency asked Plame's husband to take on the Niger assignment, he did not have to sign a confidentiality agreement, a requirement for just about anybody else doing work for an intelligence agency. This omission opened the door for Wilson to write an op-ed piece for the New York Times describing his Niger trip. Did it not occur to our super sleuths of spycraft that a nationally distributed piece about the incendiary topic of weapons of mass destruction -- which happens to be Wilson's wife's expertise -- could result in her involvement being raised?

The special prosecutor and reporters should ask Chief U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan, who is overseeing the grand jury, to conduct a hearing to require the CIA to identify all affirmative measures it was taking to shield Plame's identity. Before we even think about sending reporters to prison for doing their jobs, the court should determine that all the elements of a crime are present.

Victoria Toensing was chief counsel to the Senate intelligence committee from 1981 to 1984 and served as a deputy assistant attorney general in the Reagan administration. Bruce Sanford is a Washington lawyer specializing in First Amendment issues. The authors will take questions today at 2 p.m. on www.washingtonpost.com.

My read on things is that media curiosity towards Wilson's trip to Nigeria led to the accidental release of Plame's name...given the criteria outlined by Toensing, Plame's status with the CIA did not necessarily require the government to protect her identity, and given that her husband was sent to Nigeria, her involvement was not exactly covert.

I know a lot of people on this forum can't stand Rove, but I fail to see the smoking gun in this case...if you want a fish to fry in the Bush Administration, there is a stronger case against DeLay for criminal behavior...in Rove's case, there really isn't enough to gain traction for building a case against him.

There are, at the very least, three seperate incidences of Rove discussing this woman. Are the supporters still ardantly saying that he is without any guilt in this whole fiasco?
I don't think anyone questions Rove's involvement in leaking Plame's name...the question is, did he do so with malicious intent, which is difficult to prove in a court of law...also, given the criteria for such scenarios under the law, it is not clear if he even committed a crime, as not all CIA operatives and employees have the same identity secrecy constraints.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
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this all should be given to a jury. teach them exactly what the law states and let the lawyers open fire.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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this all should be given to a jury. teach them exactly what the law states and let the lawyers open fire.
For it to go to jury, there has to be a crime to prosecute...the debate with the whole Plame fiasco, as pointed out in the article I posted, is that Rove may not have committed a crime, as defined under the 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
this all should be given to a jury. teach them exactly what the law states and let the lawyers open fire.
For it to go to jury, there has to be a crime to prosecute...the debate with the whole Plame fiasco, as pointed out in the article I posted, is that Rove may not have committed a crime, as defined under the 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act.


yeah i meant the grand jury, the one that decides if a crime was committed. set a date, line em all up, and make them all tesitfy in front of each other..
 

totalcommand

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2004
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Starbuck1975, search for the huger Rove thread in P&N.

Everything in that article has been argued over, down to the last itty bitty point. Nothing in that National Review article is novel thinking.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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I think it is funny liberals, the media, and democrats continue to focus on this case when in the last bush approval poll 29% thought Rove didnt commit a crime and 40% dont even care or know who Plame or what the case is about.

Only about 20% of responents in the last poll cared enough to even say they felt Rove was guilty of something or did something wrong.

Picking your fight is half the battle. Right now liberals are frothing at the mouth to get an advisor, somebody who wont ever run for office. So if you get him what did you gain? Nothing politically except you wasted a whole lot of time and energy getting him.


 

judasmachine

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Sep 15, 2002
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Originally posted by: Genx87
I think it is funny liberals, the media, and democrats continue to focus on this case when in the last bush approval poll 29% thought Rove didnt commit a crime and 40% dont even care or know who Plame or what the case is about.

Only about 20% of responents in the last poll cared enough to even say they felt Rove was guilty of something or did something wrong.

Picking your fight is half the battle. Right now liberals are frothing at the mouth to get an advisor, somebody who wont ever run for office. So if you get him what did you gain? Nothing politically except you wasted a whole lot of time and energy getting him.

I don't really care if someone steals something from you, or leaks some embarrasing photo of you to the internet, does that make it less of a crime? We have to maintain our civility, and laws if we are to have a society right? And our leaders should be held up to a brighter candle, no?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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Everything in that article has been argued over, down to the last itty bitty point. Nothing in that National Review article is novel thinking.
It may not be novel thinking, but it is still a legitimate point, and one worth considering...or have partisan politics become so dirty, that we initiate a witch hunt against the opposite side every time we see a broom?
 

totalcommand

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Everything in that article has been argued over, down to the last itty bitty point. Nothing in that National Review article is novel thinking.
It may not be novel thinking, but it is still a legitimate point, and one worth considering...or have partisan politics become so dirty, that we initiate a witch hunt against the opposite side every time we see a broom?


then go find the other thread and pop it back up. make sure you read it all first.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
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Why should we if care every CIA or Secret Service or every FBI employee's identity was made public and have their faces and profiles on the internet..... they supposedly couldn't stop 19 men from hijacking FOUR commercial aircraft in one day... *I still have my doubts.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Crime or no crime, the fact that the administration lied and said nobody in this White House was "involved" is cause for mass firings.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
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Originally posted by: Genx87
I think it is funny liberals, the media, and democrats continue to focus on this case when in the last bush approval poll 29% thought Rove didnt commit a crime and 40% dont even care or know who Plame or what the case is about.

Only about 20% of responents in the last poll cared enough to even say they felt Rove was guilty of something or did something wrong.

Picking your fight is half the battle. Right now liberals are frothing at the mouth to get an advisor, somebody who wont ever run for office. So if you get him what did you gain? Nothing politically except you wasted a whole lot of time and energy getting him.

I think Rove is really seen as one of the huge brains behind the presidency and the point-man when it comes to energizing the base, crafting political strategies, and getting congress to bend to the will of the President. if he were removed, dems think it would be a huge blow to Bush's effectiveness as a leader, which in turn would be a black mark on the republican party, which could potentially help them in the 06 and 08 elections.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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then go find the other thread and pop it back up. make sure you read it all first.
By that logic, there was no reason to start this thread, as it doesn't really add much more to the discussion already contained within the multiple Rove threads floating around.

Let's face it folks...this whole affair wreaks as much of partisan bickering as it does of wrong doing...I know the Democrats want a win against the Bush Administration, but they haven't been to keen at picking the right battles.
 

totalcommand

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Apr 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
then go find the other thread and pop it back up. make sure you read it all first.
By that logic, there was no reason to start this thread, as it doesn't really add much more to the discussion already contained within the multiple Rove threads floating around.

Nope. I can't believe you're arguing with me on this one - it's not even a matter of politics, it's common sense.

The thread has new facts.

What you posted is old opinion, already posted and talked about much in another thread.

I can't see any reason why we shouldn't be discussing the new facts here, and taking the old opinion back to an already created thread.

Though it would be fine with me if this thread never existed and the news was posted in that old thread.

Let's face it folks...this whole affair wreaks as much of partisan bickering as it does of wrong doing...I know the Democrats want a win against the Bush Administration, but they haven't been to keen at picking the right battles.

Last I checked, the investigation was being done by an independent person, not the Democratic Party.

I even asked Zendari if there is any dirt on Fitzgerald (the investigator), and as of yet, nothing has popped up in Republican circles related to partisanship or anything on else on him for that matter.
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
then go find the other thread and pop it back up. make sure you read it all first.
By that logic, there was no reason to start this thread, as it doesn't really add much more to the discussion already contained within the multiple Rove threads floating around.

Let's face it folks...this whole affair wreaks as much of partisan bickering as it does of wrong doing...I know the Democrats want a win against the Bush Administration, but they haven't been to keen at picking the right battles.

Yup that article is old and busted.

I liked this one better

"There is an explicit and implicit contract between the United States and its NOCs. It has many parts, but there is one fundamental part: A NOC will never reveal that he is or was a NOC without special permission. When he does reveal it, he never gives specifics. The government also makes a guarantee -- it will never reveal the identity of a NOC under any circumstances and, in fact, will do everything to protect it. If you have lied to your closest friends for 30 years about who you are and why you talk to them, no government bureaucrat has the right to reveal your identity for you. Imagine if you had never told your children -- and never planned to tell your children -- that you worked for the CIA, and they suddenly read in the New York Times that you were someone other than they thought you were."

http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2005/10/18/113537/65
 

musicc

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Jul 3, 2005
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Quick questions?

I don?t know much about our legal system. One, if Rove or Libby were to be convicted who determine the sentencing? Two, once convicted can a dependant defense his or herself in a grand jury or high court through retrial, other motives etc. In America as I understand it, being convicted does not mean you really convicted. You can apply for retrial (2 times I think) etc.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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Looks like they are establishing a pecking order of who's important enough to keep and who's expendable.
Rove shifting the blame to Libby gives him an inside track to stay on as Bush's assistance -
as in Libby is not nearly as important to Cheney as Rove is to Bush.

Which person would be more incapacitated by that high of a level of advisor loss - Cheney or Bush ?
Cheney remains so secretive that it wouldn't matter. Dracula spends more time in the sunlight than Cheney does.

It's scapegoat picking time.
 

EatSpam

Diamond Member
May 1, 2005
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Originally posted by: Genx87
I think it is funny liberals, the media, and democrats continue to focus on this case when in the last bush approval poll 29% thought Rove didnt commit a crime and 40% dont even care or know who Plame or what the case is about.

Only about 20% of responents in the last poll cared enough to even say they felt Rove was guilty of something or did something wrong.

Picking your fight is half the battle. Right now liberals are frothing at the mouth to get an advisor, somebody who wont ever run for office. So if you get him what did you gain? Nothing politically except you wasted a whole lot of time and energy getting him.

Rove is a political mastermind. Bush wouldn't have gotten reelected, if not for Rove. Who turned the 2004 election into something about Kerry and Gay Marriage when it should heve been a referendum on the previous 4 years? Rove. The last thing we need is Rove pulling for another scumbag come 2008, that's why I'm eager to see Rove go down.
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
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I just want to see some indictments. Rove and Libby should both be indicted, and if it could be proved, Cheney and Bush for possible conspiracy and obstruction of justice charges.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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Yup that article is old and busted. I liked this one better

Your article was certainly an interesting read, but it does not clarify the lawful obligations to protect Plame's prior role as an NOC within the larger scope of the governing regulations outlined under the 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act, or how her cover may have become compromised in the role her husband assumed in the Nigeria mission, perhaps an oversight or negligance on the intelligence community's part.

Similarly, the article you posted also raises the ethical behavior of Novak in revealing Plume's identity...as your article mentions, under the 1st Amendment, he certainly had the right to reveal this information to the public...but what was the public good created in doing so?

Let us assume the scenario of Rove intentionally providing the leak to Novak...in releasing the leak, Novak allowed himself to serve as a propoganda tool of the Rove machine...does not say much for Novak's ethical integrity as a journalist.

Second scenario is that Rove simply verified information already obtained by Novak...again it raises the question of what important Plame's identity had to the Nigeria mission.

Also, I do not see what political gain the Rove machine, or Bush Administration, would make in revealing Plame's identity...the specifics of the Nigeria mission, and Wilson's findings, had hit the airwaves with little more then a bump, even after people in this country began to increasingly question why we went into Iraq.

Nope. I can't believe you're arguing with me on this one - it's not even a matter of politics, it's common sense.
Partisan bias aside, the argument remains what, if any, criminal act was committed. While there are those throwing criticism at Rove, and wish very much for this to be the "scandal" that destroys the Bush Administration, I have yet to read anything that not only defines a specific timeline events, but demonstrates how the law was broken in that timeline...granted, a lot of information in that regard is still speculation, and perhaps Fitzgerald's investigation will find evidence of wrong doing. However, last I checked, our society has a precedent of innocent until proven guilty, and I have yet to discover a compelling case that proves guilt on the part of Rove...granted, what we do know does not paint a pretty picture of Rove, but then again, I cannot see what gain, if any, Rove or the Bush Administration hoped to gain in the supposed unlawful exposure of Plame.
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
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"However, last I checked, our society has a precedent of innocent until proven guilty, and I have yet to discover a compelling case that proves guilt on the part of Rove...granted, what we do know does not paint a pretty picture of Rove, but then again, I cannot see what gain, if any, Rove or the Bush Administration hoped to gain in the supposed unlawful exposure of Plame."

The exposure of Plame was an attempt to discredit Wilson's assertion that Iraq had not attempted to purchase uranium from Niger, which was the leading reason for the invasion of Iraq with it's supposed nuclear capabilities or intentions for such, and it's already existing WMDs.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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The exposure of Plame was an attempt to discredit Wilson's assertion that Iraq had not attempted to purchase uranium from Niger, which was the leading reason for the invasion of Iraq with it's supposed nuclear capabilities or intentions for such, and it's already existing WMDs.
See but that is the logic jump in this whole affair...exposing Plame as a CIA operative is mutually exclusive to Wilson's mission in Nigeria...her status had nothing to do with his findings, nor was exposing his wife a tactic to somehow silence him, as his report and subsequent opinion on the matter had already hit the airwaves.

Similarly, Plame's status as working at Langley essentially revealed, to anyone who might be taking note in the espionage community, that Plame works for the CIA in some capacity.

Let us assume for the moment that Plame worked covert on some overseas assignment at some time in the past...if there were security implications in anyone finding out she worked for the CIA, having her work at Langley doesn't exactly keep her employer a secret.
 

RightIsWrong

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Apr 29, 2005
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I believe that that what was hoped to be gained would be Wilson being deemed a liar and therefore, any criticism he shined on the administration could be dismissed without having to address the merits of it.

The spin machine had already gone into effect that Cheney hadn't authorized the mission. If they out his wife as working at the CIA, then they can play the...she sent him...not Cheney...he is a liar and you can't believe anything that he said card. Which was played.