Mavtek3100
Senior member
Funny, we were on a gold standard until 1971, it wasn't until we had Vietnam did we decide to scrap it. Prior to that savings and loans cough cough, and hyper inflation weren't huge issues.
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Ron Paul unveils plan to stimulate economy
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TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
The gold standard was dying long before 1971. It began dying back in the 30s. btw, the US didn't even adopt the gold standard until 1900.
The reason why commodity-based monetary value is a bad idea is because one, or a group, of countries can corner the market on one or more of those commodites. In fact at one time the US did that very thing with gold. That makes for volatility in international currency markets, even with major currencies, which is not a good thing in this day and age.
The gold standard is dead. People just need to bury it and let it be a thing of the past. Using the gold standard today makes as much sense as parking huge round stones with holes in the middle in front of our house to denote our wealth.
Mavtek3100
Senior member
Guns and butter, Guns and butter.
You are being lied to, but I won't be the truth teller for you tonight as I'm too tired. Needless to say a Commodity based standard does not inhibit the creation of money nor does it inhibit the value of money. It keeps both the value and the growth steady.
You are being lied to, but I won't be the truth teller for you tonight as I'm too tired. Needless to say a Commodity based standard does not inhibit the creation of money nor does it inhibit the value of money. It keeps both the value and the growth steady.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
Well feel free to come back and explain how that is so. I'd like to hear your explanation of how it's possible because history has already demonstrated otherwise.
LegendKiller
Lifer
Our growth has been relatively steady. As far as the value, provided inflation is not rampant, is not highly variable, and is not out of alignment with growth, it is not unhealthy.
People fear inflation and try to drum up more fear by saying that it's evil and erodes value. However, they fail to balance the equation with the other side of things.
LegendKiller
Lifer
What's funny is that if we took a poll of people about which argument was more convincing it'd split down the lines of Ron Paul supporters and everybody else. If it was done nationally, it'd be 94% for me, 6% for them. On here, it might be a bit more, in fact, they'd probably marshall their whole base to defeat yet another evil anti-gold guy. There'd be hundreds of new registrants and they'd spam the poll with votes against me.
See, the mob mentality only works virtually, not realistically, much like their knowledge about economics and finance. It fails utterly.
What is amazing is that they fail to see this themselves, leaving their ideas to the wayside of fringe politics. If they kept to a core message, such as Fiscal Responsibility, they might get more votes. However, by marginalizing themselves with things they really have no clue about, they eliminate any prospect of them ever being a major player.
CitizenKain
Diamond Member
No man, its a conspiracy by everyone else in the world and thousands of economists who all hold the gold standard down, and only Paul and the Von Mises school can show us the light. That light is a shiny metal.
lozina
Lifer
<LegendKiller>
If we took a national poll there would be 90% who would agree with me, and 10% with you. But then out of the 10% that voted for you, 99% are stupid people. They are stupid because they don't agree with me. Because when people don't agree with me I call them stupid. Then I can go claim I "thrashed" them because I couldn't refute points anymore but instead resorted to calling the person stupid.
</LegendKiller>
That's pretty much the conclusion we can derive from LegendKiller's postings
Other conclusions I may derive:
- He thinks rampant inflation is a good thing. He thinks it's wonderful that workers in this country by default get a loss of their wage every year thanks to this inflation. Their only hope of keeping their purchasing power is by getting a "raise" each year and most companies don't see it the same way- they see "raises" and bonuses awarded to employees who outperform. So you basically have to outperform yourself every year just to keep the same pay.
- He thinks the only alternative to rampant inflation is absolutely no inflation. He doesn't seem to realize there is a gray area where inflation is subtle enough you don't fall into the trap described above. He thinks people who prefer a gold standard over fiat money think that there will never be inflation ever again.
-He thinks bigger numbers means growth. Look, the stock market has a larger number - must mean growth. Look our GDP is a bigger number. Growth! Look, the amount of dollars in my savings account is a larger number! Prosperity! However he fails to realize that thanks to the rampant inflation mentioned above, the measuring stick we use (the US Dollar) is dropping in value itself. So it's as if you are repeatedly measuring something with a ruler whose spaces between the lines are getting smaller and smaller. So one day you measure your height you are 75". Next day the space between the lines is shrunk (the inches have "devalued", if you will) and you measure again and now see 76". Wow you must have grown one inch overnight? Wrong.
-He thinks because most modern economies now are based on fiat money system, that it *must* be the best solution. He must also think Microsoft Windows is the best operating system in the world, because most modern business use it. He must also think fossil fuels such as oil is the best source of energy, because most people are currently using it. We are wasting our money on alternative energies, we are already using the best!
Am I right in those conclusions?
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
No. You took what he said and spun into a fantasy of your own making that completely mischaracterized his statements.
But that's the discussion tactic certain people like to employ in here. They think if they demonize their opposition they have somehow won the argument. Apparently they don't realize though that anyone with a lick of common sense can see right through that tactic and it makes those employing it look really, really foolish in the process.
BeauJangles
Lifer
Actually, I think your position is pretty contradictory. You support "gray area" inflation just like LegendKiller, but you don't think inflation is a good thing?
Please, clarify.
LegendKiller
Lifer
Good one. I only resort to calling somebody a moron when they just refuse to accept anything with a preponderence of proof. Pretty much everybody, except for your fellow zealots, agrees that you have no basis. You have no good arguments. You've got nothing. Sorry charly, not everybody agrees with everything I say, but even people that disagree with me on a lot of stuff acknowledge that your points fall short.
Please point out where I think "rampant" inflation is "good". Please find my dozens of posts saying that moderate, steady, predictable inflation is good. What is the definition of "rampant"?
From dictionary.com
in full sway; prevailing or unchecked: a rampant rumor.
Wow, since when was inflation prevailing or unchecked? Last time I saw inflation it's running at ~3.1% and it's been pretty steady at around that rate, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less, but right around that. Almost all companies I know of give a COLA adjustment. My dad, who was a union worker at Coca Cola got one every year. My brother and mother, who are union workers at the USPS gets one. My friend from high school who fixed bobcats in rural MN, gets one. Sorry sparky, that one fails the bullshit test.
Again, where did I mention "rampant" inflation? Is there rampant inflation? no. Furthermore, where did I say the alternative is no inflation? What trap above? The one that leads to predictable increases in prices, countered by increases in wages?
I challenged you to provide solid proof of erosion of real wages over a long period of time. Yet, you have provided nothing. are you going to do so now?
I think that people who prefer gold over fiat are people who think that gold solves everything and that, somehow, inflation will be reduced. Yet, you somehow believe that varience in inflation/deflation instead of predictability, is a good thing. There's a reason why people come here to invest and it ain't because they think that we are pretty.
Ohh yes, I have always said this. Sorry sparky, but I know that there are different components to growth and that inflation is one of them. I am the one who argues that oil hasn't gotten more expensive, but that the dollar has declined. Nice try at polarizing and pigeonholing, but it doesn't quite work against me. It's ok, you're not the first person to try and fail at doing that.
Most modern economies? Show me *one* that doesn't use a fiat based system. Even your beloved austria, home to your gold hero, uses the Euro, a fiat system.
You see, this is what separates zealots from realists. I realize that while the current system may not be the best system, it's the best system out of all of the others that have been tried so far. However, you claim that the other is the best, despite being proven that it isn't and every modern economy in the world acknowledging that fact.
It's the same with Windows. MS attempts to accomplish what no other company before has tried, to provide an operating system that works with any piece of hardware known, by any manufacturer, for any user, at any point in computing history. Additionally, it keeps it's system open so that it has the highest amount of flexibility with all users.
The sacrifice is that you have to deal with crappy drivers, hackers abusing the flexibility, a cludgy system that's memory intensive, and something that is a jack of all trades but a master at none.
So, I have a balanced viewpoint on Windows, much as I do everything else. However, you strike me as a person who just hates and doesn't have a balance. You never look at the other side of the equation, which is where you fail to convince anybody. It's why you will always be marginalized and why Ron Paul will never even get close to even mattering.
It's really sad because you guys are your own worse enemies. If you shut up and balanced your viewpoint a bit more, while stopping your attacks on things you don't have any clue about, you might actually get somewhere. Instead, you wrap yourself inside of conspiracies, half-truths, and complexity. That minimizes your viewpoint and marginalizes your political base, making you fringe players.
Enjoy it, because 6-10% is as far as you're ever going to get. That's fringe, marginalized, and pathetic.
LegendKiller
Lifer
It's the only way he can "win" at this debate. I actually feel bad for him, he's outmatched and he knows it. He can't provide any solid proof that inflation is evil and it has eroded much value. Nor can he defend the assertion that the gold/hard backed dollar would be any better, since the same things that happen now happened under it.
All that a fiat currency does is keep things in check, it provided a stable environment to grow an economy, which is why we have had so much success.
People just can't understand that providing this type of environment is actually good. predictability is good.
Naw, they just want to demonize what they don't understand. It's the only way they can fight.
Those who want gold standard or commodity based standard back can shut up already. It's a dumb idea and there is zero nation in the world use it anymore. For all the doom and gloom news politicians and media have been feeding us, US economy hasn't stop growing the last 5/6 years, and that's in the real term too. (you gold standard people may wanna look up what real term means when you say our GDP is inflated.) We may have a recession once a while, but over the last 50 years, we probably have 4 up year for every 1 down year on average if not more. With gold standard, you will stop all kinds of economic activities and slow the economy to no end while solving none of the inherent economic problems like business cycle that causes recession.
Go take some real course in some decent school before talking about what you don't know.
Go take some real course in some decent school before talking about what you don't know.
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
I repeatedly post this question to the big believers of abolishing the Fed and I never hear a response. Every industrialized nation in the world uses a central bank, but only Ron Paul of the United States of America agitates for a change. I guess he and his followers are just that brilliant. Never mind the decades of proof that the system does work and is needed. But hey, go USA! Go Ron Paul!
I've concluded that these people are simply buffoons who've bought into something that looks sinister because it's fun to believe in the boogeyman. All of these people have little to no training in the area that they profess opinions in.
BeauJangles
Lifer
It's because abolishing the Federal Reserve has become analogous with fixing the economy and strengthening the dollar. While that might even be true in the short-term, the consequences of such a policy would be disastrous in the future.
LegendKiller
Lifer
I know I am preaching to the choir, but there are dozens of ways to fix things, first of which is demanding a balanced budget and coming to the realization that that mandates reduced services *and* increased taxes.
This has nothing to do with the Fed, it has to do with knowing that if income doesn't equal expenditures, you have to balance somehow.
Instead of preaching this, RP-bots run around demonizing the Fed, something which people know nothing about normally and the people that do know something (people like me) know that it's a flawed system, but the best flawed system we have. Thus, they are missing the target.
What else can fix the system? For flucks sake, balance the credit equation. In 2005 banks and credit companies got their way with enhanced rights during bankruptcy. However, they abused their position by wrapping up thousands and then screwing them down. The equation need to be balanced and I have outlined ways to do that.
Other suggestions? you want a smaller government? Then accept that you might be at risk for a terrorist attack. Personally, I work right across from the Chrysler building and while I was scared during the steampipe explosion in aug, I went back to work with the knowledge that it wasn't a big deal and I wasn't going to run and hide. Why be afraid your whole life?
Why is it so hard to imagine that the simple things, like not voting in the polticial class, is the reason why we have our problems? I can think of dozens of reasons why we are facing the problems we are and not one of them is the Fed's fault, nor would they be prevented by the gold standard.
Mavtek3100
Senior member
Looks like Ron Paul was right, again...............
Oh and LK was wrong, again...........
Oh and LK was wrong, again...........
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