Roger Waters is an jerk

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SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
I'm speaking more of Water's overindulgent constant re-hashing of his life history as the ultimate tragedy of all of humanity. The Wall, the Final Cut, blah blah. Not so much the band on stage. The band essentially became a vehicle for Waters to cry about himself. Don't get me wrong, I like the dude, I think he's quite brilliant. Far more gifted muscially than people give him credit for, but:

His schtick gets annoying.

I don't get that out of the albums. I think you must be specifically referring to The Wall. The Wall in my opinion is the collective unconsciousness of the post WWII European generation growing up without fathers along with a few measures of personal hubris aimed squarely at the recording industry, the British system of public education, the emotionally closed nature of British culture, and the personal failings of the band. The Final cut was written at the same time, and was really cutting room floor material from The Wall, which is why its themes and sound are identical.

I do not see this message in, Meddle, DSotM, WYWH, or Animals, two of which deal almost exclusively with life and effects on the band of, Syd Barret.
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
136
Absolutely. Good bands are generally comprised of angry people you can identify with but would rather not know.

I just don't like how so many people assume Roger was the bad guy in the scenario. He wrote 100% of the song lyrics for the songs people can name, he wrote most of the music, he sang almost all leads, and harmonized on every track. His insistence about how the songs should sound resulted in how the songs sound on the albums. If there was a single genius in the band, he was it. Of everyone in the band, only he and Wright could not be replaced. Dave was guitar player number 4 for the band, and let's face it, Nick had the drum kit. When you start a band, everyone is a slave to the drummer.

Without Gilmour, PF would never have been as successful or prolific. He isn't just "guitar player #4." When people listen to Time, Comfortably Numb, Echoes, Money, Dogs, Cigar, they don't remember that wickedly intense 4/4 bass line comprised of root notes, they connect with the phrasing and tone of the guitar solos. Gilmour's soundscaping inspiried countless hundreds of bands to push music into the next realm compared to where it was at the time.

There is no denying that Waters was important in the equation. While lyrically PF albums have never been that inspiring as a whole, he managed to pen some pretty fucking powerful lyrics here and there and he deserves respect for that, no question. His arrangements are also worthy of praise as the whole concept album genre basically started with his help.

The best anyone can tell, Gilmour decided he'd had enough of Waters' crying recorded on tape and felt that it wasn't in the band's best interest to release The Final Cut with the dedication to his father. Waters became petty and requested Gilmour's name be removed from the album as a producer. Waters then went on to petition that the name Pink Floyd not be used by anyone and even went as far as to try and get released from his contracts citing breach of contract because no new albums were being made. For the years after the rest of the band toured and recorded without him (another vote for the Waters is the real 'enemy' here) Waters would publically make slights towards his former band mates. PF would continue on and make substandard music for the most part. Waters presence was definitely missed but his ego surely wasn't.

Point being from all of this, PF only worked as a complete band. If you listen to Gilmour's solo efforts, the talent is clearly there and that is why the other members stuck with him. I do not blame Gilmour in the slightest for not wanting to be part of a cash grab like this. I certainly wouldn't. If Waters thinks that he can somehow change what the Wall was originally about into some limp dicked anti-war thing, more power to him. The war sentiment is clearly in the original recording but I feel it more a basis for the protagonist's isolationism than a war statement. Perhaps it was both... but the incident that spurred the creation of the Wall was not one of anti-war. The quote now on Waters' home page about why he felt it was time to bring 'The Wall' back has literally nothing to do with the original intent.
 
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SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
Without Gilmour, PF would never have been as successful or prolific. He isn't just "guitar player #4." When people listen to Time, Comfortably Numb, Echoes, Money, Dogs, Cigar, they don't remember that wickedly intense 4/4 bass line comprised of root notes, they connect with the phrasing and tone of the guitar solos. Gilmour's soundscaping inspiried countless hundreds of bands to push music into the next realm compared to where it was at the time.

There is no denying that Waters was important in the equation. While lyrically PF albums have never been that inspiring as a whole, he managed to pen some pretty fucking powerful lyrics here and there and he deserves respect for that, no question. His arrangements are also worthy of praise as the whole concept album genre basically started with his help.

The best anyone can tell, Gilmour decided he'd had enough of Waters' crying recorded on tape and felt that it wasn't in the band's best interest to release The Final Cut with the dedication to his father. Waters became petty and requested Gilmour's name be removed from the album as a producer. Waters then went on to petition that the name Pink Floyd not be used by anyone and even went as far as to try and get released from his contracts citing breach of contract because no new albums were being made. For the years after the rest of the band toured and recorded without him (another vote for the Waters is the real 'enemy' here) Waters would publically make slights towards his former band mates. PF would continue on and make substandard music for the most part. Waters presence was definitely missed but his ego surely wasn't.

Point being from all of this, PF only worked as a complete band. If you listen to Gilmour's solo efforts, the talent is clearly there and that is why the other members stuck with him. I do not blame Gilmour in the slightest for not wanting to be part of a cash grab like this. I certainly wouldn't. If Waters thinks that he can somehow change what the Wall was originally about into some limp dicked anti-war thing, more power to him. The war sentiment is clearly in the original recording but I feel it more a basis for the protagonist's isolationism than a war statement. The quote now on Waters' home page about why he felt it was time to bring 'The Wall' back has literally nothing to do with the original intent.

I disagree with your assessment of DG's guitar playing skills and influence 5000%. Of the instruments, only Wright created a unique style. Mason was a complete hack, and there are 91782649827348274872 David Gilmours in high schools all over the world. There is nothing about his playing that I find the least bit interesting, imaginative, unique, or impressive. I have About Face. It's godawful in every conceivable way. I would rather listen to water buffalo fuck than David Gilmour sing.

I agree almost 100% with your assessment of the band as a whole music group was brilliant and as anything else, unremarkable at best.

I disagree completely with your take on the personal situation with the band members and who was at fault for the demise of PF, or at least who was the biggest douche in the situation.

At the time of The Wall and The Final Cut, the "band" was only David and Roger. Wright was out, and if not for Roger, Mason would have been out too. They scrapped and fought about the recording more so than any others, but they always scrapped about the recording. In the end they got The Wall done and toured it. FC was cutting room stuff for The Wall. David didn't want to even bother with it. Roger knew it and wanted it to be PF's last album. The band broke up due to numerous factors none of which are Gilmour "had enough of Waters' crying recorded on tape". Let's try financial Armageddon, cocaine, cheating wives, and a long and tiresome career in the rock and roll industry, which kills most bands far more quickly.

The trouble with Waters' image really started years later after Gilmour and Mason wanted to tour as PF. To Roger, PF was dead. Anybody who has listened to MLoR and DB can tell you he was right. Was he really so wrong to want it to stay that way? Mason and Gilmour were only in it for the cha ching. Wright was only invited to make their legal case stronger. How is it the only guy with enough integrity to leave PF dead gets the blame? Even Mason has said publicly that Roger was right about the whole MLoR fiasco.

He made public sleights? The rest of the band were essentially laughing in his face and collecting money while they did it. Wouldn't you say something? Yep, he did everything in his power to stop M/G from touring or recording as PF and most of it was under legal advice. Unfortunately, he lost.

Saucer Full of Secrets
 
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Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
136
I disagree with your assessment of DG's guitar playing skills and influence 5000%. Of the instruments, only Wright created a unique style. Mason was a complete hack, and there are 91782649827348274872 David Gilmours in high schools all over the world. There is nothing about his playing that I find the least bit interesting, imaginative, unique, or impressive.

I agree almost 100% with your assessment of the band as a whole music group was brilliant and as anything else, unremarkable at best.

I disagree completely with your take on the personal situation with the band members and who was at fault for the demise of PF, or at least who was the biggest douche in the situation.

At the time of The Wall and The Final Cut, the "band" was only David and Roger. Wright was out, and if not for Roger, Mason would have been out too. They scrapped and fought about the recording more so than any others, but they always scrapped about the recording. In the end they got The Wall done and toured it. FC was cutting room stuff for The Wall. David didn't want to even bother with it. Roger knew and wanted it to be PF's last album.

The trouble really started only after Gilmour and Mason wanted to tour as PF. To roger, PF was dead. Anybody who has listened to MLoR and DB can tell you he was right. Was he really so wrong to want it to stay that way? Mason and Gilmour were only in it for the cha ching. Wright was only invited to make their legal case stronger. How is it the only guy with enough integrity to leave PF dead gets the blame?

He made public sleights? The rest of the band were essentially laughing in his face and collecting money while they did it. Wouldn't you say something?

Nothing says I'm a complete douche like trying to prevent the other 3/4ths of a band you were in from continuing on as Pink Floyd or getting any royalties for doing so.

If you can't see Gilmour's talent then I have to question why you even like Pink Floyd at all.. what about the band was compelling for you?
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
Nothing says I'm a complete douche like trying to prevent the other 3/4ths of a band you were in from continuing on as Pink Floyd or getting any royalties for doing so.

If you can't see Gilmour's talent then I have to question why you even like Pink Floyd at all.. what about the band was compelling for you?

No. Nothing says complete douche like selling out. I would have no problem with PF touring and making new albums in the 80s had they included Roger. You do not tour without the main songwriter, lyric writer, and lead singer and call yourself the same thing. The simple fact of the matter is that had they recorded and toured under a different name, MLoR would have sold about three copies.

Richard Wright is one of the best keyboardists that ever lived and is literally everything that set them apart from other bands. The rest of the musicianship is what I would call serviceable. Roger wrote terrific and powerful nerve-striking lyrics. The band also benefited from large doses of technical mastery in the studio. Their engineers tricks are still used today. Possibly only The Beatles did better in the studio.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
dude they're talking about this issue on another forum I'm with

that wall has been tagged up for YEARS
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
aters' "projection and wheat pastings" project, which focused on promoting his "The Wall" tour with posters featuring a sketch and a Dwight D. Eisenhower anti-war quote, was scheduled for Friday night on the west side of LA and Saturday night downtown. Silver Lake was not on the original map.
The Waters pastings were taken to task by the LA Weekly and Los Angeles Times, to which Waters responded by saying "it was an accident." An official post on "The Wall" Facebook page, signed by Waters, read:
"Some of you may have seen a story going round, claiming that I paid person or persons unknown to deface a mural featured on the cover of the 2000 album, 'Figure 8,' by the late Elliott Smith, intentionally disrespecting his memory. What a load of crap! I'm told the mural in question has been there for 10 years and has been tagged many times. What possible motive could I have for targeting it?
"However, I'm also told that there are fans of the late Elliott Smith who look upon that particular piece of 'Wall' as a memorial to him, I respect their feelings and would not wish to offend them for the world, so I shall ask my guys to remove our biodegradable Wheatpaste a.s.a.p."
In a postscript, Waters added: "Elliott Smith fans, check out the Wheatpaste text, I think Elliott would have approved."

lol @ IT HAS TO BE PAINT