Roe Vs. Wade Roe is jumping ship

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Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,158
59
91
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
You mean like Bill Clinton, Teddy Roosevelt, Richard Nixon, JFK, Rutherford Hayes, Abraham Lincoln, Harry Truman, Woodrow Wilson and James Garfield? Oh, and add GWB to the list, since he just happens to be the most recent to win with a minority of the public vote. Around 20 of our presidents have been elected with a minority of the public vote. GWB is as legitimate as any.

difference being he was selected by a partisan supreme court. he's illegitimate.
You are 100% wrong. Doesn't matter if the supreme court was partisan or not. All they did was uphold the law, and by the rules that were in place at the time of the election, GWB won fair and square. He also won the numerous recounts, even though they were irrelevant.
Get over it, you are wrong, he's 100% legit.

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: ILikeStuff <-- Die hard anti-abortion, because no matter what life brings you, there is no excuse for intentionally killing an innocent child
You know everything that happens in other peoples' lives? Are YOU going to adopt to that child? If the answer was No to either of those, then kindly STFU. edit: btw, this happened years ago and is VERY old news. Apparently Roe got born again or what not...

I would happily adopt an unwanted child.
Not me. The crap and piss all over the place plus they smell and when the become teenagers they get real expensive and loud. It takes a special person to raise an adopted child and though you might be one DA most Pro Lifers aren't, especially if the child is a minority or born with disabilities.
 

Shimmishim

Elite Member
Feb 19, 2001
7,504
0
76
Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: ILikeStuff <-- Die hard anti-abortion, because no matter what life brings you, there is no excuse for intentionally killing an innocent child
You know everything that happens in other peoples' lives? Are YOU going to adopt to that child? If the answer was No to either of those, then kindly STFU. edit: btw, this happened years ago and is VERY old news. Apparently Roe got born again or what not...

Why is it you always tell people who disagree with you to STFU? They have a right to express their stupid POV, whatever it is.

I would happily adopt an unwanted child. There are thousands out there like me. Kindly STFU.

I don't going into the off topic forums for this reason but I think this is a very important issue.

I used to be a die-hard pro-choice person realizing that rape and incest are... good grounds for a woman aborting a baby that shouldn't have been theres in the first place...

but then I came to realize that it's so selfish for me to think that I have a right as to say what is grounds for what life should or shouldn't be taken away. Did I create life? Did you create life?

I believe that all things happen for a reason... good or bad... it's just a matter of how you see that situation. When a woman is raped, how can she see it as it being something good that happened to her? You can't really tell her that "oh, you deserved it" or "oh, it happened for a good reason" and expect her to understand...

I believe in a God that is sovereign... that all things work out in someway or another... no matter how bad the circumstances are, God works in ways in which all things work out for the good of everyone. I know this may sound like religious mumbo jumbo but for me, it is something I firmly believe in and it is something that I have seen in my own life.

Unless we created life, who are we to say that it is right or wrong for a woman to have an abortion? We have no right. The choice is God's and God chose life.

 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
1,490
0
0
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: josphII
Originally posted by: Kev
Originally posted by: josphII
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Pro-choice is a misnomer. A woman gets the choice to destroy a child. The child does not get a choice in this matter, nor does the father of the child. So, thinking about it, Pro-abortion people are anti-choice by taking away the choices of two individuals while only gaining one choice. So we are at -1 choices.

Adoption is a wonderful thing.

so a father has the right to tell a woman that she must grow something in her body?

and for all you people saying that a woman should pay for her mistakes I ask why? Why should somebody pay for their mistakes if they dont have to? simply because you think so? thats quite an argument you got there!
should fat people be allowed to sue fast food restaurants for making them obese?

by your logic they should be allowed - why should they take responsibility for their actions?


my gosh right when i think you pro lifers cant sink any lower you yet again amaze me! obese ppl shouldnt be allowed to sue fast food restaurants and my logic doesnt dictate that. ON THE OTHER HAND your logic dictates that if a group of people decided that fat people shouldnt undergo liposuction (for whatever reason) then liposuction should be illegal because obese people should pay for their actions.

all im saying is if people can get away with making bad decisions (ie unwanted pregnancies), and not interfere with anybody elses personal freedoms (imo a fetus has no personal freedoms), then they should do so and other people should simply stay out of their buisness.

The disagreements (I think) begin where you said that in your oppinion, fetus' have no personal freedoms. I believe that all persons have basic human rights and one of them is the right to live. I'm curious as to why you believe that fetus' have no personal freedoms (no flaming intended).

because a fetus isnt a person. a fetus is, well, a fetus.
 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
1,490
0
0
Originally posted by: Shimmishim
Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: ILikeStuff <-- Die hard anti-abortion, because no matter what life brings you, there is no excuse for intentionally killing an innocent child
You know everything that happens in other peoples' lives? Are YOU going to adopt to that child? If the answer was No to either of those, then kindly STFU. edit: btw, this happened years ago and is VERY old news. Apparently Roe got born again or what not...

Why is it you always tell people who disagree with you to STFU? They have a right to express their stupid POV, whatever it is.

I would happily adopt an unwanted child. There are thousands out there like me. Kindly STFU.

I don't going into the off topic forums for this reason but I think this is a very important issue.

I used to be a die-hard pro-choice person realizing that rape and incest are... good grounds for a woman aborting a baby that shouldn't have been theres in the first place...

but then I came to realize that it's so selfish for me to think that I have a right as to say what is grounds for what life should or shouldn't be taken away. Did I create life? Did you create life?

I believe that all things happen for a reason... good or bad... it's just a matter of how you see that situation. When a woman is raped, how can she see it as it being something good that happened to her? You can't really tell her that "oh, you deserved it" or "oh, it happened for a good reason" and expect her to understand...

I believe in a God that is sovereign... that all things work out in someway or another... no matter how bad the circumstances are, God works in ways in which all things work out for the good of everyone. I know this may sound like religious mumbo jumbo but for me, it is something I firmly believe in and it is something that I have seen in my own life.

Unless we created life, who are we to say that it is right or wrong for a woman to have an abortion? We have no right. The choice is God's and God chose life.

so even if you dont beleive in god you shouldnt be able to have an abortion because "god chose life"? god really has no relevance in this discussion (believe it or not). the legality of abortions should be soley based on the constitutionality of the issue. lets not forget that everybody in this country has freedom of religion and many of us choose to not to believe in god. weather or not abortion is legal or illegal religious ppl, such as yourself Shimmishim, can choose weather or not to have an abortion.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
That is just it, not everyone believes in God and not everyone wants to live 'righteously'...that is their right in america and it's up to laws to keep them in line.

I believe in Pro-Choice, although I probably would never want a potential pregnancy aborted for myself, it's not my place to make someone else believe the way I do.

These Pro-Lifer people remind me of the Spanish Inquistion....you cannot kill, but we have permission from God to kill you. (hmmm one of those 10 commandments or something, I don't remember a clause next to it "(Well sometimes it's ok)"
 

DT4K

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2002
6,944
3
81
Originally posted by: alkemyst
That is just it, not everyone believes in God and not everyone wants to live 'righteously'...that is their right in america and it's up to laws to keep them in line.

I believe in Pro-Choice, although I probably would never want a potential pregnancy aborted for myself, it's not my place to make someone else believe the way I do.

These Pro-Lifer people remind me of the Spanish Inquistion....you cannot kill, but we have permission from God to kill you. (hmmm one of those 10 commandments or something, I don't remember a clause next to it "(Well sometimes it's ok)"

This is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.
Pro-Abortionists like to say that whether or not we think abortion is wrong, it is not our right to force others to conform to our moral beliefs. Pro-Abortionists say that pro-life viewpoints are based on religion and that we have no right to force others to live by those religious beliefs.

If you want to argue that abortion is not murder, and that a fetus is not a person, then go ahead. I may disagree, but at least it is an arguable point. But please do not argue about whether or not we have the right to force our morals on others.

ALL of our laws are based on forcing morals on people. How do you justify having laws against murder, rape, or stealing. Thinking that these things are wrong is a moral belief yet we force these beliefs on everyone whether or not they agree. Couldn't we make the same argument that some people think murder is ok, and it's not our right to force our moral beliefs against murder on them? If not, why not?

Those of you who believe a fetus is not a person, or is not alive, can you tell me what defines a person?
Is it a beating heart, an active brain, fully developed limbs, thinking?
Because all of these things exist very very early in pregnancy.

Or is it simply the act of birth?
If it is the act of birth, then what you are saying is that doctors are the ones who can create life. They perform a c-section and presto, they've created a life.

Is there a certain timeline that determines whether or not an abortion is OK?
If so, what is it and how did you pick it.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Actually what the morning-after-pill does is force a period and since a period is the shedding of the uterine lining the embryo whether or not it is fertilized is shed with it. After 72 hours or so it may still be shed, but the morning-after people don't want to enter the realm of abortion as they are already being attacked on this. After a certain gestation, the embryo isn't affected so much by periods, and some women may have them/or spot and still be pregnant.

NO THAT IS INCORRECT. that is not what happens at all, the reason morning-after people don't want to enter the realm of abortion is because it is simply false. there is no recent medical data that supports your assertion. please do not continue to spread this mis-information.

the morning after pill works just as the regular birth control pill works, which is by delaying ovulation. what does this mean? this mean the egg does not leave the ovaries. it does not enter the fallopian tube, etc, where sperm can get to it. this is why the egg never gets fertilized, and thus how the woman does not get pregnant.

http://www.drdrew.com/Topics/article.asp?id=1279

It turns out that the morning after pill -- or emergency contraception -- works exactly the same way as the daily birth control pill. There is really no difference whatsoever. The morning after pill is basically a double dosage of contraception used within 72 hours of unprotected intercourse. The daily contraceptive pill that many women take suppresses an egg from being released by an ovary. Hence, there can never be fertilization. However, there is a small risk that an ovulation could occur, and if it does, there is also a small risk that the pill could impede implantation of that fertilized egg.

For reasons I cannot understand, activists have chosen to attack the morning after pill form of contraception, believing that its primary mechanism is impairing implantation of a fertilized egg. This cannot be further from the truth.

If people wanted to attack emergency contraception based on its scientific mechanism of action, in order to be philosophically consistent they would also have to work to eliminate all forms of the pill and a couple of anti-inflammatory drugs -- Vioxx and Celebrex -- which also tend to have some effect on implantation.

in summary, morning-after pill does not work through abortion, in any sense of the word
 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
1,490
0
0
Originally posted by: Shanti


This is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.
Pro-Abortionists like to say that whether or not we think abortion is wrong, it is not our right to force others to conform to our moral beliefs. Pro-Abortionists say that pro-life viewpoints are based on religion and that we have no right to force others to live by those religious beliefs.

If you want to argue that abortion is not murder, and that a fetus is not a person, then go ahead. I may disagree, but at least it is an arguable point. But please do not argue about whether or not we have the right to force our morals on others.

ALL of our laws are based on forcing morals on people. How do you justify having laws against murder, rape, or stealing. Thinking that these things are wrong is a moral belief yet we force these beliefs on everyone whether or not they agree. Couldn't we make the same argument that some people think murder is ok, and it's not our right to force our moral beliefs against murder on them? If not, why not?

Those of you who believe a fetus is not a person, or is not alive, can you tell me what defines a person?
Is it a beating heart, an active brain, fully developed limbs, thinking?
Because all of these things exist very very early in pregnancy.

Or is it simply the act of birth?
If it is the act of birth, then what you are saying is that doctors are the ones who can create life. They perform a c-section and presto, they've created a life.

Is there a certain timeline that determines whether or not an abortion is OK?
If so, what is it and how did you pick it.

uh that is not true at all. our laws, generally speaking, are based to protect peoples' personal freedoms (the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness). for example murder is against the law because it takes away somebody's right to live not becuase it is immoral.
 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
1,490
0
0
Originally posted by: gopunk
Actually what the morning-after-pill does is force a period and since a period is the shedding of the uterine lining the embryo whether or not it is fertilized is shed with it. After 72 hours or so it may still be shed, but the morning-after people don't want to enter the realm of abortion as they are already being attacked on this. After a certain gestation, the embryo isn't affected so much by periods, and some women may have them/or spot and still be pregnant.

NO THAT IS INCORRECT. that is not what happens at all, the reason morning-after people don't want to enter the realm of abortion is because it is simply false. there is no recent medical data that supports your assertion. please do not continue to spread this mis-information...

actually i believe there is a new pill out that does as this person describes. the fertalized egg leaves the tubes but is incapable of attaching to the lining of the womans uterus due to the effects of the drug.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: josphII
Originally posted by: gopunk
Actually what the morning-after-pill does is force a period and since a period is the shedding of the uterine lining the embryo whether or not it is fertilized is shed with it. After 72 hours or so it may still be shed, but the morning-after people don't want to enter the realm of abortion as they are already being attacked on this. After a certain gestation, the embryo isn't affected so much by periods, and some women may have them/or spot and still be pregnant.

NO THAT IS INCORRECT. that is not what happens at all, the reason morning-after people don't want to enter the realm of abortion is because it is simply false. there is no recent medical data that supports your assertion. please do not continue to spread this mis-information...

actually i believe there is a new pill out that does as this person describes. the fertalized egg leaves the tubes but is incapable of attaching to the lining of the womans uterus due to the effects of the drug.

which pill is this?
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
This thread is old. All the arguements have been said. All the flames have been extinguished. All that left is to MOVE ON!
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: XZeroII
This thread is old. All the arguements have been said. All the flames have been extinguished. All that left is to MOVE ON!

no, we must squash out the incorrect medical info first :p
 

DT4K

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2002
6,944
3
81
Originally posted by: josphII
Originally posted by: Shanti


This is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.
Pro-Abortionists like to say that whether or not we think abortion is wrong, it is not our right to force others to conform to our moral beliefs. Pro-Abortionists say that pro-life viewpoints are based on religion and that we have no right to force others to live by those religious beliefs.

If you want to argue that abortion is not murder, and that a fetus is not a person, then go ahead. I may disagree, but at least it is an arguable point. But please do not argue about whether or not we have the right to force our morals on others.

ALL of our laws are based on forcing morals on people. How do you justify having laws against murder, rape, or stealing. Thinking that these things are wrong is a moral belief yet we force these beliefs on everyone whether or not they agree. Couldn't we make the same argument that some people think murder is ok, and it's not our right to force our moral beliefs against murder on them? If not, why not?

Those of you who believe a fetus is not a person, or is not alive, can you tell me what defines a person?
Is it a beating heart, an active brain, fully developed limbs, thinking?
Because all of these things exist very very early in pregnancy.

Or is it simply the act of birth?
If it is the act of birth, then what you are saying is that doctors are the ones who can create life. They perform a c-section and presto, they've created a life.

Is there a certain timeline that determines whether or not an abortion is OK?
If so, what is it and how did you pick it.

uh that is not true at all. our laws, generally speaking, are based to protect peoples' personal freedoms (the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness). for example murder is against the law because it takes away somebody's right to live not becuase it is immoral.

I find that extremely ironic that you point out the "right to life". So your argument would be that a fetus is not alive?

What about drug laws?
What about laws against prostitution?

Are these not laws based on morals?

Most of our laws are based on the bible and the ten commandments. Not that I think anyone should be forced to practice religion. I'm not a particulary religious person. But we legislate morality all the time.

We have tons of laws that restrict peoples freedoms rather than protect them. They are based on the majority's view of morality.

But you really didn't answer my question. When does the fetus get to enjoy that "right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" that you pointed out? Is it only after birth or is there some time period prior to birth at which he/she should have his/her freedom and life protected?

Because developmentally, the baby is the exact same right before and right after birth. So what's the difference?
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Most of our laws are based on the bible and the ten commandments. Not that I think anyone should be forced to practice religion. I'm not a particulary religious person. But we legislate morality all the time.


not at all. have you looked at the ten commandments lately? most of it is irrelevant in terms of law.

jefferson studied great philosophers, i'm sure they influenced him more then the 10 commandments:p

i mean really, the 10 commandments has stuff about manservants, and not having gods but me, and not taking the lords name in vain and sh*t. after a while it says u shouldn't kill. but really, most reasonably advanced societies don't condone random killing. u can't advance at all until you feel reasonably safe from your fellow man:p it goes with the turf.


Because developmentally, the baby is the exact same right before and right after birth. So what's the difference?

some logic you have there. i'm about the same as i was yesterday. but am i same as i was 15 years ago? hell no!

as for our laws, our laws are based on our politicians. not long ago there were laws against asians immigrating to the US, we got cut off. the white people were like.. dude... the railroads and stuff are built, we don't need no more chinks! we couldn't own land. we couldn't send for our wives. we couldn't vote or become citizens. were they based on morals? hells no!

 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
1,490
0
0
uh that is not true at all. our laws, generally speaking, are based to protect peoples' personal freedoms (the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness). for example murder is against the law because it takes away somebody's right to live not becuase it is immoral.

I find that extremely ironic that you point out the "right to life". So your argument would be that a fetus is not alive?

What about drug laws?
What about laws against prostitution?

Are these not laws based on morals?

Most of our laws are based on the bible and the ten commandments. Not that I think anyone should be forced to practice religion. I'm not a particulary religious person. But we legislate morality all the time.

We have tons of laws that restrict peoples freedoms rather than protect them. They are based on the majority's view of morality.

But you really didn't answer my question. When does the fetus get to enjoy that "right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" that you pointed out? Is it only after birth or is there some time period prior to birth at which he/she should have his/her freedom and life protected?

Because developmentally, the baby is the exact same right before and right after birth. So what's the difference?

good golly..... a fetus is alive (duh) but it is not a person, thus the personal freedoms granted to us by the constitution dont apply. when the fetus develops into a person (after birth) is the point at when personal freedoms kick in because its only at that point that a person exists! in short, fetus != person

as for drug laws the argument would be that not even you can deprive yourself of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. and because drugs are addictive and can kill, its easy to see why doing these things are against the law.

but your right, people often try to push their morals onto others by making laws. prostitution is a good example. one would be very hard pressed to find a non moral argument on why prostitution should be illegal. sometimes these people succeed, sometimes they dont.

but our legal system is not a derivative of the ten commandments, it's derived from the constitution. its easy to be confussed about this because most of the ten commandments, if not all, go hand and hand with ones constitutional right of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. [edit]im not religious by any means and couldnt even tell you what one of the ten commandments are. that last sentence is more or less an assumption.[/edit] but make no mistake our laws are not set to enforce christian morality, they are set up to protect the rights granted to us by the constitution.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: gopunk

NO THAT IS INCORRECT. that is not what happens at all, the reason morning-after people don't want to enter the realm of abortion is because it is simply false. there is no recent medical data that supports your assertion. please do not continue to spread this mis-information.

the morning after pill works just as the regular birth control pill works, which is by delaying ovulation. what does this mean? this mean the egg does not leave the ovaries. it does not enter the fallopian tube, etc, where sperm can get to it. this is why the egg never gets fertilized, and thus how the woman does not get pregnant.

http://www.drdrew.com/Topics/article.asp?id=1279

It turns out that the morning after pill -- or emergency contraception -- works exactly the same way as the daily birth control pill. There is really no difference whatsoever. The morning after pill is basically a double dosage of contraception used within 72 hours of unprotected intercourse. The daily contraceptive pill that many women take suppresses an egg from being released by an ovary. Hence, there can never be fertilization. However, there is a small risk that an ovulation could occur, and if it does, there is also a small risk that the pill could impede implantation of that fertilized egg.

For reasons I cannot understand, activists have chosen to attack the morning after pill form of contraception, believing that its primary mechanism is impairing implantation of a fertilized egg. This cannot be further from the truth.

If people wanted to attack emergency contraception based on its scientific mechanism of action, in order to be philosophically consistent they would also have to work to eliminate all forms of the pill and a couple of anti-inflammatory drugs -- Vioxx and Celebrex -- which also tend to have some effect on implantation.
in summary, morning-after pill does not work through abortion, in any sense of the word

Please read your own quote above where is says " there is also a small risk that the pill could impede implantation of that fertilized egg"...it also can force a period, which is the shedding of the lining of the uterus. Dr Drew is writing that link towards the anti-abortionists. I do not think it's abortion.

All a birth control does is fool the body into thinking it's pregnant and no more eggs get released....some doctors are even suppressing the period and having good results with healthy women who have not had a period at all in several months/few years (this is very interesting)...however as the article says fertilization could still take place and as such that fertilized egg will not attach and will be passed out the body. The sort of definition of an embryo is a being, in which, is a fertilized egg and also attached to the uterus. However, things like ectopic pregnancies occur so it's just a naming convention and this is a nice clean loophole as a fertilized egg technically is not an embryo and a fetus has to start as one...so no harm no foul...but again when it gets down to the nitty gritty that fertilized egg really no different, however that is the line they drew. Now if the egg hasn't been released then it won't be until the next cycle....or possibly early/late as hormones could upset the balance (sometimes even permanently which is rare).

This is simple biology...Dr. Drew is writing to the layman and sort of sugar-coating the chance that yes, it is possible to be technically pregnant for at least 72 hours (minus the sperm's travel) during that time. It doesn't really matter to me, but they are trying hard to play that fact down. No doctor will say that the "morning after pill" is impossible to terminate a fertilized egg and neither does Dr. Drew. The whole 72 hours thing is for that reason more than anything else....should more than 72 hours pass, the morning after pill may still work if it causes a period or some other effect that terminates the fertilized egg...however more development has happened and it goes into a real gray area. As long as the fertilized egg has not attached it's sort of outside the law as is the case when it's only potentially 72 hours old.

Now RU486 is different...it's really a first trimester drug, but this could cause a termination much later (how far has really yet to be determined and they want to keep this as a first trimester option).

Other meds, such as anti-cancer, hormonal/steroidal, etc, are again sort of a loop hole...it goes down usually as "I think I have cancer we better treat it right away while we await the tests"...no more pregnancy and oh, no more cancer....yet again I am not against that method at all, I am totally pro-choice in that aspect and I don't define it as murder until the fetus is potentially viable.

However, if it were up to me let's do this....allow a pro-life tax, you can pay it and it will provide for the immediate removal of the fetus and placed into an incubator/hospital care. That way the mother has her rights and the fetus has theirs and taking away either's rights is wrong whether or not it kills....I don't think a majority of the pro-lifers would like to pay for their beliefs, but that is a different debate.

Anti-abortionists distort a lot of the biology and to the layman it's believeable.

For instance: The whole "stoppings a beating heart" campaign....well yes it would, but the heart in a fetus only sort of performs the same function and it actually isn't fully developed until birth and prior to that it's not the same heart function an infant has.

The lungs also, sure the fetus appears to be breathing...but no aveoli are there until the 7th month....and actually take a few years after birth to be fully functioned. This is one of the reasons premmies go blind...they can't 'breathe' so they are 'bathed' in ultra high levels of oxygen and as a result blindness results....this is how asphyxiation can also occur in people who paint too much of their skin...your skin has to breath too.

Same time period for the thinking parts of our brains...about month 7...before that it's instinct and reflex only...but yes there is a period of time in the womb where the fetus is thinking of what they don't know, but the 'patterns' are the same, so thought of some sort is happening this however, is during the last two months...

Now all that said, there is a good argument so what if it's not 'pain' or 'aware' of it's impending death, is it right to kill a paralyzed man? is it right to kill a 'total vegetable' (for lack of a better term)? I don't know if it's right or not..but I say let them live on there own and if they are viable they will survive. If we say you cannot allow a relative to die, should we also require one to comb the earth for the hungry and diseased and make sure they survive? It's all about lines in the sand.


 

Revolutionary

Senior member
May 23, 2003
397
0
0
Originally posted by: XZeroII
This thread is old. All the arguements have been said. All the flames have been extinguished. All that left is to MOVE ON!

I wholeheartedly agree. Let it go, for now. I'm Pro-life myself, but I acknowledge that abortion is probably here to stay. Remember Prohibition? You can't revoke long-standing freedoms without massive social upheaval. Period. Its entirely likely that a reversal of RvW would result in a leftist uprising.

But, I have to reiterate this from my earlier post. While I strongly suggest that everyone here take a breather and stop sullying AnandTech with this political strife and bile, those who are suggesting that Lifers are making a moral argument that should have no bearing on a Choicers' choice: that remains a moral argument. It is an appeal to an absolute to insist that moral absolutes have no bearing. It remains a moral argument to insist that an issue is amoral, because you must first address the issue of morality -- you can't just dismiss it. There's no "amorality trump card" or "morality free issue." You can't escape it, and you can't insist that it is irrelevant. Because that is to address a moral topic, and thus invoke a moral code. You simply have to address the DIFFERENCES in moral codes and conducts, and, in a democracy, FIND A COMMON GROUND. Lifers insist on an unbending definition of fetal life; Choicers insist on an unbending breadth of personal freedom. Neither side will make any concession to the other. All this insistence on abslolute freedoms and unbending rights without reference to responsibility and common good (wow, now there's a topic that American's used to talk about a lot!) is tearing this place apart. Try starting a thread on what Lifers and Choicers can AGREE ON and you might come closer than you think to understanding one another and starting to find a solution.

If anyone's interested, I recommend "Rights Talk" by Harvard scholar Mary Ann Glendon for more on America's emergency need for balance between political rights, social responsibilities, and love of the common good.
 

Bantam

Member
May 23, 2003
36
0
0
[/quote]personal responsibility is great and all, but the damage done to society through an unwanted child whom the mother is unable to raise properly, is far greater than the damage from this one instance of allowing personal responsibility to slip. as a member of society, i do not want to have to pay taxes for police protection from their children when they grow up, welfare, or whatever. you can argue that i shouldn't have to pay welfare in the first place, but the fact of the matter is is that no matter what, poor and impoverished people will always be a burden on society in a multitude of ways. now tell me, WHY THE F*CK should i pay for this?[/quote]

I just love the elitist attitude. Hitler didn't like paying for the 'curse' of the Jewish people on his country.



I dare you to click on this
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
alkemyst - Actually what the morning-after-pill does is force a period and since a period is the shedding of the uterine lining the embryo whether or not it is fertilized is shed with it. After 72 hours or so it may still be shed, but the morning-after people don't want to enter the realm of abortion as they are already being attacked on this. After a certain gestation, the embryo isn't affected so much by periods, and some women may have them/or spot and still be pregnant.

alkemyst - Please read your own quote above where is says " there is also a small risk that the pill could impede implantation of that fertilized egg"...it also can force a period, which is the shedding of the lining of the uterus.

i've pasted your original post above, so you can see what you wrote. saying "what the morning-after-pill does is force..." implicitly implies that impeding implantation is the primary mechanism through with the medication works. this is brutally false. first off, if it did impede implantation, it would be through altering the lining so that the egg couldn't stick, not through shedding it altogether. secondly, this constitutes a very small percentage of the times it works in real life... so it is not accurate to say the morning-after-pill works through this mechanism and say nothing more. i do not deny that there is a small probability that it could work by altering the uterine lining... i'm sorry if i made it sound like the primary mechanism it worked through was the only mechanism, this was not my intent.

alkemyst - however as the article says fertilization could still take place and as such that fertilized egg will not attach and will be passed out the body.

no, that is not what the article says at all. re-read it please:

dr. pinksy - However, there is a small risk that an ovulation could occur, and if it does, there is also a small risk that the pill could impede implantation of that fertilized egg.

the difference between this and what you said is that it is only a small risk that the fertilized egg will not attach. in the majority of times the egg gets fertilized, it has no trouble attaching. this is why the chances of the medication working decreases over time, because the longer you wait, the more likely it is the egg was released.

i'm not some guy trying to trick people into unknowingly thinning their uterine lining... i just think it's wrong to say that the way the EC works is by altering uterine lining, because that is not how it works in the vast majority of cases. should people know that there is a risk of such a thing occuring? definitely. should people be led to believe that it's the only way it works, or that it happens with any regularity? absolutely not.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
I somehow must have deleted part of the first post I made, or thought I typed it but didn't, even when I re-read it I put in the missing words in my mind.

alkemyst - Actually what the morning-after-pill does is force a period and since a period is the shedding of the uterine lining the embryo whether or not it is fertilized is shed with it. After 72 hours or so it --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

should read Actually what the morning-after pill does is not only stop ovulation but can also force a period

The other two quotes you quoted: mine- "however as the article says fertilization could still take place and as such that fertilized egg will not attach and will be passed out the body" and Dr. Pinksy - "However, there is a small risk that an ovulation could occur, and if it does, there is also a small risk that the pill could impede implantation of that fertilized egg" are saying the same thing to me so I don't know how one can be right and the other wrong. Also in the article he never really mentions that 2 day window when the egg will be fertilized should a viable sperm reach it, again because they really don't want to mention that case as it could get into a gray area, luckily most have no idea how all this works and know that there is never a fetus/embryo involved so everyone is happy.

The chance, on the day of taking the morning-after pill, the egg is currently being released, in transit, or in the uterus is a pretty good one (about 1/14 based on 2 days of the 28 day cycle)....the odds get a little better for pregnacy because sperm can live for up to 5 days inside the womans body, however just because sperm and eqq are there together it doesn't guarantee pregnancy so the odds also get a little worse for fertilization. Therefore, you have a 5 day window moving across 28 days of which there is a 2 day window for potential fertilization....the odds get even better since you have up to 72 hours to take the pill, so a 3 day window moving over the previous ones. Now that is the small chance he is talking about which to me is not so small, but indeed smaller than the possibility that the egg has not been released which is about 93% of the time just based on the simple assumption that for two days the egg is 'out' and the other 26 days the egg is 'in' with the assumption no variations from very simplified 'textbook' ovulation cycles.

Basically you have a 7% chance the egg has been released, and even less that it is a fertilized egg, and even lesser that the morning-after pill is affecting a fertilized egg, and even less still that the egg has attached to the uterine lining and is affected by the morning-after pill...however it can happen. Of course there is also the chance that pregnancy can still occur (the morning-after pill gives one a 80% reduced risk of pregnancy for use in one act of unprotected sex (source: http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1997/babytabl.html) which equates to 1-(0.8^# of times sex happens yearly) which if all you are using is a morning-after pill then you more than likely will get pregnant.

 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
The other two quotes you quoted: mine- "however as the article says fertilization could still take place and as such that fertilized egg will not attach and will be passed out the body" and Dr. Pinksy - "However, there is a small risk that an ovulation could occur, and if it does, there is also a small risk that the pill could impede implantation of that fertilized egg" are saying the same thing to me so I don't know how one can be right and the other wrong.

you're saying that if fertilization occurs, it won't attach and be passed throught he body. pinksy is saying that if fertilization occurs, there is a small chance that won't attach.

Also in the article he never really mentions that 2 day window when the egg will be fertilized should a viable sperm reach it, again because they really don't want to mention that case as it could get into a gray area, luckily most have no idea how all this works and know that there is never a fetus/embryo involved so everyone is happy.

i really don't know where you're getting this idea of some kind of conspiracy... but i've heard him mention the specifics several times on national radio, so i don't think he is avoiding the topic... he probably just didn't care to go that in depth in that article.

The chance, on the day of taking the morning-after pill, the egg is currently being released, in transit, or in the uterus is a pretty good one (about 1/14 based on 2 days of the 28 day cycle)....the odds get a little better for pregnacy because sperm can live for up to 5 days inside the womans body, however just because sperm and eqq are there together it doesn't guarantee pregnancy so the odds also get a little worse for fertilization. Therefore, you have a 5 day window moving across 28 days of which there is a 2 day window for potential fertilization....the odds get even better since you have up to 72 hours to take the pill, so a 3 day window moving over the previous ones. Now that is the small chance he is talking about which to me is not so small, but indeed smaller than the possibility that the egg has not been released which is about 93% of the time just based on the simple assumption that for two days the egg is 'out' and the other 26 days the egg is 'in' with the assumption no variations from very simplified 'textbook' ovulation cycles.

no, there are two "small chances". first, is what you just described... the small chance that the egg gets fertilized. second, is the small chance that the uterine lining was altered in a fashion such that a fertilized egg could not attach itself. only when both these small chances are fulfilled, will a fertilized egg be discarded.
 

DT4K

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2002
6,944
3
81
Originally posted by: josphII
good golly..... a fetus is alive (duh) but it is not a person, thus the personal freedoms granted to us by the constitution dont apply. when the fetus develops into a person (after birth) is the point at when personal freedoms kick in because its only at that point that a person exists! in short, fetus != person

Wow, a fetus develops into a person after birth?
How exactly does that work?
Is it the exposure to air that causes that rapid developmental change?
If so, how long does that development take?
Could you kill it right after birth but before it becomes a person?
I don't get it. Could you please explain the process to me?

What if a doctor does a C-section at 8 months?
Is it a person then? Or should you still be able to kill it for another month?

What if it's at 6 months gestation?
Does that give you 3 months to decide if you want to keep the baby or kill it?