Rock the non-vote

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Since tomorrow is election day (at least here in CA), I thought I'd put this out there. One of my favorite anti-voting articles:

Rock the Non-Vote, Part Two

by Gene Callahan

I've often been mistaken, as I would guess most published writers have, about the level of response a particular article of mine will elicit. There have been times when I was convinced that some column would really strike a chord with readers, only to receive almost no feedback after its publication. On the other hand, I have written pieces that I feared were too esoteric or obscure to draw much interest, but whose public debut elicited a flood of comments.

However, once in a while, I do get it right. Recently, for example, when I sent "Rock the Non-Vote" to LewRockwell.com, I suspected it might generate many comments, and, lo and behold, it did! (By the way, I try to respond to every reader who writes to me. However, especially when I receive many letters about an article, I often can't find time to answer all of them as they arrive. Then, some of them may drop off the first screen of my inbox, at which point they become "out of sight, out of mind." Occasionally, during one of my periodic purges of old messages, I encounter such neglected correspondence, with the result that a reader receives an apologetic response many months after writing to me. In any case, if I've ever failed to answer an e-mail of yours it was probably because I simply lost track of it, so please don't take it personally!)*

"Rock the Non-Vote" prompted a roughly equal number of positive and negative responses. Since the basic thrust of the supportive e-mails was that I was right, there is little more to say about them. It is the notes from my critics that prompt either clarification of or expansion on my original arguments, and they are what I will address here.

I will begin by tackling what I think is the weakest objection to not voting that I received. (It's kind of like jogging slowly to warm up for a fast run: start out easy, loosening up the muscles so that they're prepared for the harder stuff ahead.) While it was advanced by several of my correspondents, one in particular phrased it quite succinctly, saying, "if a citizen doesn't vote he has no right to bitch about illegal wars or tax n' spend."

However, I think that contention is precisely backwards. To see why, imagine a stranger approaching you, a gun in his hand, and declaring that you have the "right" to play Russian roulette with him. If you don't exercise your right, he says, he still plans to aim his gun at you, spin the cylinder, and then pull the trigger. If you agree to take part in his proposed game, it seems to me, then you have weakened the force of any protest you might lodge about the outcome. On the other hand, if you tell him you want no part of such foolishness, and that he should leave you alone, then how in the world would that negate your right to object to his plan?

Isn't our "right" to vote closely analogous to that situation? Although I'm offered the chance to take my own turn spinning the cylinder and pulling the trigger of the gun, I'm not permitted to opt out of my role as a potential target. If I attempt to ignore the outcome of an election, based on the simple fact that I never agreed to abide by it in the first place, the State is prepared to use deadly force against me, in order to compel me to pay attention. Why should my refusal to participate in the State's aggressive schemes mean that I could no longer criticize them?

Another common objection was that my stance is cynical. Of course, even if that charge is true, it is hardly a knockdown argument. It is quite sensible to be cynical about some things. And, in one respect, these correspondents are correct: I am cynical about the pretensions of "public service" put forward by politicians, and about the "choice" represented by the Democratic and Republican parties.

However, in a more important sense, I regard my view as quite the opposite of cynical: I have a deep faith in the ability of ordinary people to choose for themselves and to cooperate with each other, if they are not in thrall to "leaders" who reinforce their grip on power by pitting class against class, race against race, and nation against nation.

Others among my critics agreed that the Democrats and Republicans don't really offer voters much of a choice, but they held that voting for a minor party candidate is a more effective form of protest than lethargically sitting on the sidelines. I disagree, for several reasons. First of all, "lethargically sitting on the sidelines" doesn't accurately portray my recommended alternative. This article is the 136th I've written for LewRockwell.com. I also write (or at least have written) for about ten other libertarian or free market print or web publications, I have given a number of public talks, and I speak to people I meet about political affairs when they seem receptive. I don't do those things for money ? I made far more when I was a computer programmer ? or for fame ? I was already established as a writer for software magazines when I began to focus on politics and economics. (And I'm not mentioning these facts because I'm fishing for compliments about what a noble chap I am ? believe me, I'm not all that noble! ? but only to illustrate that "lethargy" is not what I practice or advise.)

Secondly, even if you eschew the Republicrats and vote Libertarian, Constitution, Green, or whatever else, you are still implicitly agreeing that whichever party garners the most support for its platform has won the right to force it on everyone else. (What's more, the party's candidates are not even bound to pay any heed to the platform they campaigned on once they are in office!) But I regard the idol worship of "the will of the people" as perhaps the most common, fundamental error in the political thought of our age. Bowing before that idol is unlikely to advance the cause of freedom. (I'm not suggesting that it is always wrong to vote. Voting against, say, a proposed new tax strikes me as a valid defensive measure, and, if I lived in Ron Paul's congressional district I might very well vote for him.)

What's more, on a purely pragmatic level, I don't envision that support, even very broad support, for a minor party will result in any really significant progress toward freedom. Certainly, as I said in my previous column, we might see some positive changes on the margin, such as some easing of our drug laws or slightly lower tax rates. It's not that I wouldn't welcome those changes, but they certainly don't "strike the root" of the weed that is strangling our liberty ? no serious blow to that root can be delivered through participating in a process that feeds and waters it.

If, for instance, Libertarian Party candidates began getting 20% of the votes in any significant number of important races, the politically powerful would just make sure that they captured control of the party, which they could do easily ? that's why, after all, we call them "politically powerful." Do you recall that, in 1980, Reagan was an "outsider" candidate who was leading a "conservative revolution"? But, at the GOP convention, the establishment Republicans told him that if he didn't accept Bush Sr. as his running mate, and place a bunch of their boys in his administration, they wouldn't support him. (Murray Rothbard details that history in his essay "The Reagan Phenomenon.") And so, despite Reagan's conservative rhetoric, the Federal government kept growing throughout his presidency.

Or consider that, this year, the top concerns of most Democratic voters include the war in Iraq, which they believe was unnecessary and unjust, the possibility of more such military adventurism to come, which they hope to prevent, and their suspicion that the current administration is run by and for the rich. So whom do they wind up with as "their" candidate for president? John Kerry, who voted for the war, who is committed to keeping American soldiers in Iraq indefinitely, has discussed sending even more US troops there, who has promised to take a hard line with Iran and Syria, and who is a multi-millionaire member of the very same elitist, secret society as the president whom "his" voters despise.

Howard Dean's positions were more in line with those of most Democrats. But, when it looked like such a non-establishment candidate might win the party's nomination for president, the mainstream media suddenly found all sorts of things wrong with him, and within a few weeks he went from being the clear favorite to being roundly whomped in almost every primary. (By the way, we don't need to embrace any conspiracy theory to explain those events. The media elite and the political elite move in the same circles, so that they are continually informed of and influenced by each other's views. If the idea that Dean was a "fringe" candidate, whose nomination would spell certain victory for Bush, began to circulate widely in that social milieu, his campaign was sunk, whether or not there was any cabal devoted to torpedoing it.)

Today, the American ruling class can generally ignore all political parties except the two biggies, since the other ones almost never win important races. In fact, their existence helps to sustain the two-party system, by providing a safety valve for dissidents to vent their frustration. But, should a third party ever become a political force with which to be reckoned, the ruling class's interest in it will swiftly be piqued.

So, no, I don't think that voting for minor-party candidates is a generally better strategy than abstinence. However, if you believe that voting in some particular election will forward the cause of liberty, then I'm certainly not going to berate you for casting it. I'm not quite so arrogant as to think I always know what choices other people should make. I merely suggest that the larger struggle will not be won or lost in the polling booths, and that we will actually retard the cause of freedom if we put too much focus on them.

A fourth argument I received for voting is that the people running the country couldn't care less if only 10% of eligible voters show up for a presidential election. Now, perhaps I didn't make my point clearly enough, because I wasn't implying that those folks will feel guilty or bashful about ruling if they don't have a "popular mandate." But they are generally not stupid, and they know that any government relies on the consent of the governed for its continued existence. For example, I recently attended a lecture by Dr. Anna Ebeling, a historian who grew up in the Soviet Union, in which she said that the USSR lasted as long as it did only because the vast majority of the Russian people took the rule of an autocratic, secretive state as a given aspect of life in their country; the Communists were merely carrying on in the tradition of the czars. But once a generation that had been exposed to liberal ideas came of age, too many Soviet subjects came to regard their government as illegitimate, resulting in its collapse.

The need to sustain the appearance of legitimacy is the prime motivation for the repeated, energetic efforts to "get out the vote." The widespread idea that, whomever a person supports, the most important thing is that he at least votes for someone, is really rather curious. It would seem to be in the interest of Democrats that Republicans not vote, and vice versa. Yet I find that people are usually more upset to learn that I don't plan to vote at all than they would be if they discovered I intended to vote for a candidate they oppose. I get the feeling that they might even regard my casting a ballot for a Pol Pot or an Adolf Hitler as morally preferable to not participating: "Well, at least you are fulfilling your civic responsibility and making your voice heard in our democracy!" But a little reflection should expose such an attitude as nutty: voting for an evil, murderous monster is clearly far more reprehensible than staying home on election day.

The long and short of it is that no one who wrote to disabuse me of my silly idea succeeded. Nevertheless, I appreciated their comments ? at least those of the bulk of them who were polite and didn't call me names ? and they spurred me to think more deeply about my position. I hope that at least a few of my critics might find this article equally useful.

Text

Tons more anti-voting goodness

Around election time I always watch in amazement as people try to get other people to vote. These otherwise well meaning/good individuals end up being proselytizers for the state and the religion known as 'democracy.'

I urge everyone to stay home and do something more productive with your time. Remember, your single vote is not going to ever determine the outcome of an election.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,349
10,872
136
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Since tomorrow is election day (at least here in CA), I thought I'd put this out there. One of my favorite anti-voting articles:

Rock the Non-Vote, Part Two

by Gene Callahan

I've often been mistaken, as I would guess most published writers have, about the level of response a particular article of mine will elicit. There have been times when I was convinced that some column would really strike a chord with readers, only to receive almost no feedback after its publication. On the other hand, I have written pieces that I feared were too esoteric or obscure to draw much interest, but whose public debut elicited a flood of comments.

However, once in a while, I do get it right. Recently, for example, when I sent "Rock the Non-Vote" to LewRockwell.com, I suspected it might generate many comments, and, lo and behold, it did! (By the way, I try to respond to every reader who writes to me. However, especially when I receive many letters about an article, I often can't find time to answer all of them as they arrive. Then, some of them may drop off the first screen of my inbox, at which point they become "out of sight, out of mind." Occasionally, during one of my periodic purges of old messages, I encounter such neglected correspondence, with the result that a reader receives an apologetic response many months after writing to me. In any case, if I've ever failed to answer an e-mail of yours it was probably because I simply lost track of it, so please don't take it personally!)*

"Rock the Non-Vote" prompted a roughly equal number of positive and negative responses. Since the basic thrust of the supportive e-mails was that I was right, there is little more to say about them. It is the notes from my critics that prompt either clarification of or expansion on my original arguments, and they are what I will address here.

I will begin by tackling what I think is the weakest objection to not voting that I received. (It's kind of like jogging slowly to warm up for a fast run: start out easy, loosening up the muscles so that they're prepared for the harder stuff ahead.) While it was advanced by several of my correspondents, one in particular phrased it quite succinctly, saying, "if a citizen doesn't vote he has no right to bitch about illegal wars or tax n' spend."

However, I think that contention is precisely backwards. To see why, imagine a stranger approaching you, a gun in his hand, and declaring that you have the "right" to play Russian roulette with him. If you don't exercise your right, he says, he still plans to aim his gun at you, spin the cylinder, and then pull the trigger. If you agree to take part in his proposed game, it seems to me, then you have weakened the force of any protest you might lodge about the outcome. On the other hand, if you tell him you want no part of such foolishness, and that he should leave you alone, then how in the world would that negate your right to object to his plan?

Isn't our "right" to vote closely analogous to that situation? Although I'm offered the chance to take my own turn spinning the cylinder and pulling the trigger of the gun, I'm not permitted to opt out of my role as a potential target. If I attempt to ignore the outcome of an election, based on the simple fact that I never agreed to abide by it in the first place, the State is prepared to use deadly force against me, in order to compel me to pay attention. Why should my refusal to participate in the State's aggressive schemes mean that I could no longer criticize them?

Another common objection was that my stance is cynical. Of course, even if that charge is true, it is hardly a knockdown argument. It is quite sensible to be cynical about some things. And, in one respect, these correspondents are correct: I am cynical about the pretensions of "public service" put forward by politicians, and about the "choice" represented by the Democratic and Republican parties.

However, in a more important sense, I regard my view as quite the opposite of cynical: I have a deep faith in the ability of ordinary people to choose for themselves and to cooperate with each other, if they are not in thrall to "leaders" who reinforce their grip on power by pitting class against class, race against race, and nation against nation.

Others among my critics agreed that the Democrats and Republicans don't really offer voters much of a choice, but they held that voting for a minor party candidate is a more effective form of protest than lethargically sitting on the sidelines. I disagree, for several reasons. First of all, "lethargically sitting on the sidelines" doesn't accurately portray my recommended alternative. This article is the 136th I've written for LewRockwell.com. I also write (or at least have written) for about ten other libertarian or free market print or web publications, I have given a number of public talks, and I speak to people I meet about political affairs when they seem receptive. I don't do those things for money ? I made far more when I was a computer programmer ? or for fame ? I was already established as a writer for software magazines when I began to focus on politics and economics. (And I'm not mentioning these facts because I'm fishing for compliments about what a noble chap I am ? believe me, I'm not all that noble! ? but only to illustrate that "lethargy" is not what I practice or advise.)

Secondly, even if you eschew the Republicrats and vote Libertarian, Constitution, Green, or whatever else, you are still implicitly agreeing that whichever party garners the most support for its platform has won the right to force it on everyone else. (What's more, the party's candidates are not even bound to pay any heed to the platform they campaigned on once they are in office!) But I regard the idol worship of "the will of the people" as perhaps the most common, fundamental error in the political thought of our age. Bowing before that idol is unlikely to advance the cause of freedom. (I'm not suggesting that it is always wrong to vote. Voting against, say, a proposed new tax strikes me as a valid defensive measure, and, if I lived in Ron Paul's congressional district I might very well vote for him.)

What's more, on a purely pragmatic level, I don't envision that support, even very broad support, for a minor party will result in any really significant progress toward freedom. Certainly, as I said in my previous column, we might see some positive changes on the margin, such as some easing of our drug laws or slightly lower tax rates. It's not that I wouldn't welcome those changes, but they certainly don't "strike the root" of the weed that is strangling our liberty ? no serious blow to that root can be delivered through participating in a process that feeds and waters it.

If, for instance, Libertarian Party candidates began getting 20% of the votes in any significant number of important races, the politically powerful would just make sure that they captured control of the party, which they could do easily ? that's why, after all, we call them "politically powerful." Do you recall that, in 1980, Reagan was an "outsider" candidate who was leading a "conservative revolution"? But, at the GOP convention, the establishment Republicans told him that if he didn't accept Bush Sr. as his running mate, and place a bunch of their boys in his administration, they wouldn't support him. (Murray Rothbard details that history in his essay "The Reagan Phenomenon.") And so, despite Reagan's conservative rhetoric, the Federal government kept growing throughout his presidency.

Or consider that, this year, the top concerns of most Democratic voters include the war in Iraq, which they believe was unnecessary and unjust, the possibility of more such military adventurism to come, which they hope to prevent, and their suspicion that the current administration is run by and for the rich. So whom do they wind up with as "their" candidate for president? John Kerry, who voted for the war, who is committed to keeping American soldiers in Iraq indefinitely, has discussed sending even more US troops there, who has promised to take a hard line with Iran and Syria, and who is a multi-millionaire member of the very same elitist, secret society as the president whom "his" voters despise.

Howard Dean's positions were more in line with those of most Democrats. But, when it looked like such a non-establishment candidate might win the party's nomination for president, the mainstream media suddenly found all sorts of things wrong with him, and within a few weeks he went from being the clear favorite to being roundly whomped in almost every primary. (By the way, we don't need to embrace any conspiracy theory to explain those events. The media elite and the political elite move in the same circles, so that they are continually informed of and influenced by each other's views. If the idea that Dean was a "fringe" candidate, whose nomination would spell certain victory for Bush, began to circulate widely in that social milieu, his campaign was sunk, whether or not there was any cabal devoted to torpedoing it.)

Today, the American ruling class can generally ignore all political parties except the two biggies, since the other ones almost never win important races. In fact, their existence helps to sustain the two-party system, by providing a safety valve for dissidents to vent their frustration. But, should a third party ever become a political force with which to be reckoned, the ruling class's interest in it will swiftly be piqued.

So, no, I don't think that voting for minor-party candidates is a generally better strategy than abstinence. However, if you believe that voting in some particular election will forward the cause of liberty, then I'm certainly not going to berate you for casting it. I'm not quite so arrogant as to think I always know what choices other people should make. I merely suggest that the larger struggle will not be won or lost in the polling booths, and that we will actually retard the cause of freedom if we put too much focus on them.

A fourth argument I received for voting is that the people running the country couldn't care less if only 10% of eligible voters show up for a presidential election. Now, perhaps I didn't make my point clearly enough, because I wasn't implying that those folks will feel guilty or bashful about ruling if they don't have a "popular mandate." But they are generally not stupid, and they know that any government relies on the consent of the governed for its continued existence. For example, I recently attended a lecture by Dr. Anna Ebeling, a historian who grew up in the Soviet Union, in which she said that the USSR lasted as long as it did only because the vast majority of the Russian people took the rule of an autocratic, secretive state as a given aspect of life in their country; the Communists were merely carrying on in the tradition of the czars. But once a generation that had been exposed to liberal ideas came of age, too many Soviet subjects came to regard their government as illegitimate, resulting in its collapse.

The need to sustain the appearance of legitimacy is the prime motivation for the repeated, energetic efforts to "get out the vote." The widespread idea that, whomever a person supports, the most important thing is that he at least votes for someone, is really rather curious. It would seem to be in the interest of Democrats that Republicans not vote, and vice versa. Yet I find that people are usually more upset to learn that I don't plan to vote at all than they would be if they discovered I intended to vote for a candidate they oppose. I get the feeling that they might even regard my casting a ballot for a Pol Pot or an Adolf Hitler as morally preferable to not participating: "Well, at least you are fulfilling your civic responsibility and making your voice heard in our democracy!" But a little reflection should expose such an attitude as nutty: voting for an evil, murderous monster is clearly far more reprehensible than staying home on election day.

The long and short of it is that no one who wrote to disabuse me of my silly idea succeeded. Nevertheless, I appreciated their comments ? at least those of the bulk of them who were polite and didn't call me names ? and they spurred me to think more deeply about my position. I hope that at least a few of my critics might find this article equally useful.

Text

Tons more anti-voting goodness

Around election time I always watch in amazement as people try to get other people to vote. These otherwise well meaning/good individuals end up being proselytizers for the state and the religion known as 'democracy.'

I urge everyone to stay home and do something more productive with your time. Remember, your single vote is not going to ever determine the outcome of an election.

Right... good advice man... lots of folks take it too, why do you suppose we have the "elected" officials in office we have now? :roll:

 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
:thumbsdown:

If everyone had that attitude, nobody would vote. Just vote by absentee ballot, it's easy and fast.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
I think hes saying voting is authoritarian, I thought about that a lot but if you think the election will personally help your lot in some way it is not imo, it is a free choice, not forced even though it is part of the system. *shrugs*
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Captante
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Since tomorrow is election day (at least here in CA), I thought I'd put this out there. One of my favorite anti-voting articles:

Rock the Non-Vote, Part Two

by Gene Callahan

I've often been mistaken, as I would guess most published writers have, about the level of response a particular article of mine will elicit. There have been times when I was convinced that some column would really strike a chord with readers, only to receive almost no feedback after its publication. On the other hand, I have written pieces that I feared were too esoteric or obscure to draw much interest, but whose public debut elicited a flood of comments.

However, once in a while, I do get it right. Recently, for example, when I sent "Rock the Non-Vote" to LewRockwell.com, I suspected it might generate many comments, and, lo and behold, it did! (By the way, I try to respond to every reader who writes to me. However, especially when I receive many letters about an article, I often can't find time to answer all of them as they arrive. Then, some of them may drop off the first screen of my inbox, at which point they become "out of sight, out of mind." Occasionally, during one of my periodic purges of old messages, I encounter such neglected correspondence, with the result that a reader receives an apologetic response many months after writing to me. In any case, if I've ever failed to answer an e-mail of yours it was probably because I simply lost track of it, so please don't take it personally!)*

"Rock the Non-Vote" prompted a roughly equal number of positive and negative responses. Since the basic thrust of the supportive e-mails was that I was right, there is little more to say about them. It is the notes from my critics that prompt either clarification of or expansion on my original arguments, and they are what I will address here.

I will begin by tackling what I think is the weakest objection to not voting that I received. (It's kind of like jogging slowly to warm up for a fast run: start out easy, loosening up the muscles so that they're prepared for the harder stuff ahead.) While it was advanced by several of my correspondents, one in particular phrased it quite succinctly, saying, "if a citizen doesn't vote he has no right to bitch about illegal wars or tax n' spend."

However, I think that contention is precisely backwards. To see why, imagine a stranger approaching you, a gun in his hand, and declaring that you have the "right" to play Russian roulette with him. If you don't exercise your right, he says, he still plans to aim his gun at you, spin the cylinder, and then pull the trigger. If you agree to take part in his proposed game, it seems to me, then you have weakened the force of any protest you might lodge about the outcome. On the other hand, if you tell him you want no part of such foolishness, and that he should leave you alone, then how in the world would that negate your right to object to his plan?

Isn't our "right" to vote closely analogous to that situation? Although I'm offered the chance to take my own turn spinning the cylinder and pulling the trigger of the gun, I'm not permitted to opt out of my role as a potential target. If I attempt to ignore the outcome of an election, based on the simple fact that I never agreed to abide by it in the first place, the State is prepared to use deadly force against me, in order to compel me to pay attention. Why should my refusal to participate in the State's aggressive schemes mean that I could no longer criticize them?

Another common objection was that my stance is cynical. Of course, even if that charge is true, it is hardly a knockdown argument. It is quite sensible to be cynical about some things. And, in one respect, these correspondents are correct: I am cynical about the pretensions of "public service" put forward by politicians, and about the "choice" represented by the Democratic and Republican parties.

However, in a more important sense, I regard my view as quite the opposite of cynical: I have a deep faith in the ability of ordinary people to choose for themselves and to cooperate with each other, if they are not in thrall to "leaders" who reinforce their grip on power by pitting class against class, race against race, and nation against nation.

Others among my critics agreed that the Democrats and Republicans don't really offer voters much of a choice, but they held that voting for a minor party candidate is a more effective form of protest than lethargically sitting on the sidelines. I disagree, for several reasons. First of all, "lethargically sitting on the sidelines" doesn't accurately portray my recommended alternative. This article is the 136th I've written for LewRockwell.com. I also write (or at least have written) for about ten other libertarian or free market print or web publications, I have given a number of public talks, and I speak to people I meet about political affairs when they seem receptive. I don't do those things for money ? I made far more when I was a computer programmer ? or for fame ? I was already established as a writer for software magazines when I began to focus on politics and economics. (And I'm not mentioning these facts because I'm fishing for compliments about what a noble chap I am ? believe me, I'm not all that noble! ? but only to illustrate that "lethargy" is not what I practice or advise.)

Secondly, even if you eschew the Republicrats and vote Libertarian, Constitution, Green, or whatever else, you are still implicitly agreeing that whichever party garners the most support for its platform has won the right to force it on everyone else. (What's more, the party's candidates are not even bound to pay any heed to the platform they campaigned on once they are in office!) But I regard the idol worship of "the will of the people" as perhaps the most common, fundamental error in the political thought of our age. Bowing before that idol is unlikely to advance the cause of freedom. (I'm not suggesting that it is always wrong to vote. Voting against, say, a proposed new tax strikes me as a valid defensive measure, and, if I lived in Ron Paul's congressional district I might very well vote for him.)

What's more, on a purely pragmatic level, I don't envision that support, even very broad support, for a minor party will result in any really significant progress toward freedom. Certainly, as I said in my previous column, we might see some positive changes on the margin, such as some easing of our drug laws or slightly lower tax rates. It's not that I wouldn't welcome those changes, but they certainly don't "strike the root" of the weed that is strangling our liberty ? no serious blow to that root can be delivered through participating in a process that feeds and waters it.

If, for instance, Libertarian Party candidates began getting 20% of the votes in any significant number of important races, the politically powerful would just make sure that they captured control of the party, which they could do easily ? that's why, after all, we call them "politically powerful." Do you recall that, in 1980, Reagan was an "outsider" candidate who was leading a "conservative revolution"? But, at the GOP convention, the establishment Republicans told him that if he didn't accept Bush Sr. as his running mate, and place a bunch of their boys in his administration, they wouldn't support him. (Murray Rothbard details that history in his essay "The Reagan Phenomenon.") And so, despite Reagan's conservative rhetoric, the Federal government kept growing throughout his presidency.

Or consider that, this year, the top concerns of most Democratic voters include the war in Iraq, which they believe was unnecessary and unjust, the possibility of more such military adventurism to come, which they hope to prevent, and their suspicion that the current administration is run by and for the rich. So whom do they wind up with as "their" candidate for president? John Kerry, who voted for the war, who is committed to keeping American soldiers in Iraq indefinitely, has discussed sending even more US troops there, who has promised to take a hard line with Iran and Syria, and who is a multi-millionaire member of the very same elitist, secret society as the president whom "his" voters despise.

Howard Dean's positions were more in line with those of most Democrats. But, when it looked like such a non-establishment candidate might win the party's nomination for president, the mainstream media suddenly found all sorts of things wrong with him, and within a few weeks he went from being the clear favorite to being roundly whomped in almost every primary. (By the way, we don't need to embrace any conspiracy theory to explain those events. The media elite and the political elite move in the same circles, so that they are continually informed of and influenced by each other's views. If the idea that Dean was a "fringe" candidate, whose nomination would spell certain victory for Bush, began to circulate widely in that social milieu, his campaign was sunk, whether or not there was any cabal devoted to torpedoing it.)

Today, the American ruling class can generally ignore all political parties except the two biggies, since the other ones almost never win important races. In fact, their existence helps to sustain the two-party system, by providing a safety valve for dissidents to vent their frustration. But, should a third party ever become a political force with which to be reckoned, the ruling class's interest in it will swiftly be piqued.

So, no, I don't think that voting for minor-party candidates is a generally better strategy than abstinence. However, if you believe that voting in some particular election will forward the cause of liberty, then I'm certainly not going to berate you for casting it. I'm not quite so arrogant as to think I always know what choices other people should make. I merely suggest that the larger struggle will not be won or lost in the polling booths, and that we will actually retard the cause of freedom if we put too much focus on them.

A fourth argument I received for voting is that the people running the country couldn't care less if only 10% of eligible voters show up for a presidential election. Now, perhaps I didn't make my point clearly enough, because I wasn't implying that those folks will feel guilty or bashful about ruling if they don't have a "popular mandate." But they are generally not stupid, and they know that any government relies on the consent of the governed for its continued existence. For example, I recently attended a lecture by Dr. Anna Ebeling, a historian who grew up in the Soviet Union, in which she said that the USSR lasted as long as it did only because the vast majority of the Russian people took the rule of an autocratic, secretive state as a given aspect of life in their country; the Communists were merely carrying on in the tradition of the czars. But once a generation that had been exposed to liberal ideas came of age, too many Soviet subjects came to regard their government as illegitimate, resulting in its collapse.

The need to sustain the appearance of legitimacy is the prime motivation for the repeated, energetic efforts to "get out the vote." The widespread idea that, whomever a person supports, the most important thing is that he at least votes for someone, is really rather curious. It would seem to be in the interest of Democrats that Republicans not vote, and vice versa. Yet I find that people are usually more upset to learn that I don't plan to vote at all than they would be if they discovered I intended to vote for a candidate they oppose. I get the feeling that they might even regard my casting a ballot for a Pol Pot or an Adolf Hitler as morally preferable to not participating: "Well, at least you are fulfilling your civic responsibility and making your voice heard in our democracy!" But a little reflection should expose such an attitude as nutty: voting for an evil, murderous monster is clearly far more reprehensible than staying home on election day.

The long and short of it is that no one who wrote to disabuse me of my silly idea succeeded. Nevertheless, I appreciated their comments ? at least those of the bulk of them who were polite and didn't call me names ? and they spurred me to think more deeply about my position. I hope that at least a few of my critics might find this article equally useful.

Text

Tons more anti-voting goodness

Around election time I always watch in amazement as people try to get other people to vote. These otherwise well meaning/good individuals end up being proselytizers for the state and the religion known as 'democracy.'

I urge everyone to stay home and do something more productive with your time. Remember, your single vote is not going to ever determine the outcome of an election.

Right... good advice man... lots of folks take it too, why do you suppose we have the "elected" officials in office we have now? :roll:

Basically because people are looking for a higher power here on Earth. The state is seen as a higher power that is a reflection of the 'will of the people.' Even though people believe that politicians and bureaucrats are just regular people, they still believe that they are somehow the means through which of 'the will of the people' is expressed. This is nothing but pure mysticism, nevermind the fact that it has produced terrible results.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: ntdz
:thumbsdown:

If everyone had that attitude, nobody would vote. Just vote by absentee ballot, it's easy and fast.

You consider that a bad thing? People spending their time more wisely?

Even if you only took half a second to vote, it wouldn't matter. It would still be a waste of time. Your vote will most certainly never determine the outcome of any election. You might as well take a big crayon and draw your favorite politician's names on a piece of paper, make it in a paper airplane and throw it out of your window. That will have about as much effect on the election as voting does.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,349
10,872
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Hmmm ... In the past few years here in Connecticut there have been several elections decided by roughly 100 votes, in some cases with very surprising outcomes too & a lot of that had to do with somthing like 30% of voters going to the polls.. voting takes like 15 minutes & sitting on your rear-end instead of voting is hardly "using your time more wisely"... perhaps it doesn't bother you that others will be choosing your elected officials, but it would certainly bother me, if you want to say the presidential elections don't matter too much you might have a point, but then awhile back a lot of folks in Florida felt the same way & look what happened!
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: Captante
Hmmm ... In the past few years here in Connecticut there have been several elections decided by roughly 100 votes, in some cases with very surprising outcomes too & a lot of that had to do with somthing like 30% of voters going to the polls.. voting takes like 15 minutes & sitting on your rear-end instead of voting is hardly "using your time more wisely"... perhaps it doesn't bother you that others will be choosing your elected officials, but it would certainly bother me, if you want to say the presidential elections don't matter too much you might have a point, but then awhile back a lot of folks in Florida felt the same way & look what happened!

100 votes? That is still far far away from the 1 that is needed in order for your vote to decide the election. Florida in the 2000 election is a bad example. This article explains why.

Don't Vote It Makes More Sense to Play the Lottery

My 'elected officials' will always be 'chosen' for me, whether I vote or not. I have much more productive things to do with my time, like finish up my college degree.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: ntdz
:thumbsdown:

If everyone had that attitude, nobody would vote. Just vote by absentee ballot, it's easy and fast.

You consider that a bad thing? People spending their time more wisely?

Even if you only took half a second to vote, it wouldn't matter. It would still be a waste of time. Your vote will most certainly never determine the outcome of any election. You might as well take a big crayon and draw your favorite politician's names on a piece of paper, make it in a paper airplane and throw it out of your window. That will have about as much effect on the election as voting does.

And that is the reason Kerry lost, because democrats like you hold that opinion and didn't vote. You think it doesn't matter? Tell that to Bush who won the election when, in reality, he shouldn't have been able to.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: ntdz
:thumbsdown:

If everyone had that attitude, nobody would vote. Just vote by absentee ballot, it's easy and fast.

You consider that a bad thing? People spending their time more wisely?

Even if you only took half a second to vote, it wouldn't matter. It would still be a waste of time. Your vote will most certainly never determine the outcome of any election. You might as well take a big crayon and draw your favorite politician's names on a piece of paper, make it in a paper airplane and throw it out of your window. That will have about as much effect on the election as voting does.

And that is the reason Kerry lost, because democrats like you hold that opinion and didn't vote. You think it doesn't matter? Tell that to Bush who won the election when, in reality, he shouldn't have been able to.

Me a democrat? Not in this lifetime. I'm one of those rare birds that does not pay homage to any political party.

If Kerry lost because of that, then one could say that Bush barely won because Republicans didn't vote. If you got X number of people to vote, it is most likely that the original outcome would be mirrored. Half of the voters would have gone to Kerry and the other half would have gone to Bush.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: ntdz
:thumbsdown:

If everyone had that attitude, nobody would vote. Just vote by absentee ballot, it's easy and fast.

You consider that a bad thing? People spending their time more wisely?

Even if you only took half a second to vote, it wouldn't matter. It would still be a waste of time. Your vote will most certainly never determine the outcome of any election. You might as well take a big crayon and draw your favorite politician's names on a piece of paper, make it in a paper airplane and throw it out of your window. That will have about as much effect on the election as voting does.

And that is the reason Kerry lost, because democrats like you hold that opinion and didn't vote. You think it doesn't matter? Tell that to Bush who won the election when, in reality, he shouldn't have been able to.



Dissapate is a democrat bwahahahhaha!

You are serious? Wow...
 

Titan

Golden Member
Oct 15, 1999
1,819
0
0
:thumbsup: Good post man.

Unfortunately, most people are still too stupid to understand what the guy said. It is a very rational and intelligent argument that I agree with. Instead of understanding this, we agree with each other's BS and troll around grunting "vote good..., choice matters...., power me...." The ultimate reasone we are all screwed is not the politicians screwing us, but the big bunch of us that likes being screwed and justifies it any way they can.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,398
8,566
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Originally posted by: ntdz

And that is the reason Kerry lost, because democrats like you hold that opinion and didn't vote. You think it doesn't matter? Tell that to Bush who won the election when, in reality, he shouldn't have been able to.

one of the major flaws in Democratic thinking is the belief that if the turnout were larger they would automatically win. rather than blaming themselves for being unelectable, they blame the people they believe are their base for not showing up on election day. maybe, if those people aren't showing up, they're not Democratic base.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,349
10,872
136
All I can say is that in a local election in particular voting is really important, all I see when I go to vote is folks roughly 65 & older & virtually no young people ... its true that my vote in the presidential election didn't mean much because of the electoral college BS, but you better believe I'll be voting in my cities local elections today because if it comes down to a few votes I want mine counted. You can rationalize that "100 votes is more then 1" and say my vote didn't count, but if instead of passing the buck you took responsability & tried to convince people to vote you could easily swing a close election...the only way people can have your attitude is if they fail to appreciate the rights they have.

Edit: One thing is certain... even if an election is decided by ten thousand or ten million votes, the ones who can't be bothered voting are the ones who don't count.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
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Originally posted by: Captante
All I can say is that in a local election in particular voting is really important, all I see when I go to vote is folks roughly 65 & older & virtually no young people ... its true that my vote in the presidential election didn't mean much because of the electoral college BS, but you better believe I'll be voting in my cities local elections today because if it comes down to a few votes I want mine counted. You can rationalize that "100 votes is more then 1" and say my vote didn't count, but if instead of passing the buck you took responsability & tried to convince people to vote you could easily swing a close election...the only way people can have your attitude is if they fail to appreciate the rights they have.

Edit: One thing is certain... even if an election is decided by ten thousand or ten million votes, the ones who can't be bothered voting are the ones who don't count.

You are right. Your chances of affecting the outcome of an election are much greater if you try to convince others to vote your way. But what we are discussing is the act of voting itself. Yes, convincing others of voting a certain way can be rational, because you can potentially change the outcome of an election that way (especially if you pay money for TV ads). But this is separate from the act of voting itself. I concede that it certainly can be rational to try to get other people to do something that is irrational, but that says nothing about the rationality of voting.

You can belive that voting is a 'right' all you want, but it doesn't make it so. To believe that you have a 'right' to vote is tantamount to believing you have the right to rule other people. That is a conclusion that is somewhat absurd.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,709
6,266
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Even in a Anarchy consensus needs to be acheived. Without Consensus chaos rules.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,398
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
You are right. Your chances of affecting the outcome of an election are much greater if you try to convince others to vote your way. But what we are discussing is the act of voting itself. Yes, convincing others of voting a certain way can be rational, because you can potentially change the outcome of an election that way (especially if you pay money for TV ads). But this is separate from the act of voting itself. I concede that it certainly can be rational to try to get other people to do something that is irrational, but that says nothing about the rationality of voting.

You can belive that voting is a 'right' all you want, but it doesn't make it so. To believe that you have a 'right' to vote is tantamount to believing you have the right to rule other people. That is a conclusion that is somewhat absurd.

i think your fallacy here is that you say one vote doesn't count. and of course, the vast majority of times, one vote does not count. rather, it is all the votes combined that count. so, while one vote doesn't count, it isn't true that all votes don't count. you can't apply the micro reasoning to the macro.

this sounds like the same argument that, if one play had gone our team's way, we would have won. well, it's not just that one play, because all the plays before it got you to where you were and all the plays after it could have been different as well.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Dissipate
You are right. Your chances of affecting the outcome of an election are much greater if you try to convince others to vote your way. But what we are discussing is the act of voting itself. Yes, convincing others of voting a certain way can be rational, because you can potentially change the outcome of an election that way (especially if you pay money for TV ads). But this is separate from the act of voting itself. I concede that it certainly can be rational to try to get other people to do something that is irrational, but that says nothing about the rationality of voting.

You can belive that voting is a 'right' all you want, but it doesn't make it so. To believe that you have a 'right' to vote is tantamount to believing you have the right to rule other people. That is a conclusion that is somewhat absurd.

i think your fallacy here is that you say one vote doesn't count. and of course, the vast majority of times, one vote does not count. rather, it is all the votes combined that count. so, while one vote doesn't count, it isn't true that all votes don't count. you can't apply the micro reasoning to the macro.

this sounds like the same argument that, if one play had gone our team's way, we would have won. well, it's not just that one play, because all the plays before it got you to where you were and all the plays after it could have been different as well.

No, what I am saying is that from the standpoint of the individual, your vote does not matter. As humans we engage in something called human action, which entails attempting to cause something to occur in the future. This is to say that human action is based on causality. Only individuals can act, there is no such thing as 'collective action.' What is thougt of as collective action is merely just the sum of individual actions.

So, from an individual's standpoint the question is: do I vote or not vote? And if I vote what are the reasons for doing so? Well, if your reason to vote is to change some tangible outcome in the future, then that is ridiculous because your vote will most certainly not change the outcome of the election. Therefore, if one is to vote, one must vote for some other reason. A lot of reasons that I have heard are along the lines of 'civic duty,' and 'promoting democracy.' Rarely do I hear someone say: 'You should vote, because there is a very good chance that your vote could decide the election.' Those who cite the case in Florida simply haven't calculated their probabilities or believe that these very low probabilities are actually relatively good ones.

If your reason for voting is not based on producing a tangible result in the future, then it is much more likely that your reason for voting is based on a quasi-religious belief in democratic ideals. It is just like during a religious ceremony, people engaged in the ceremony might not expect anything tangible result to result from the ceremony, but to them it has other non-tangible significance.

From an objective results oriented standpoint, voting is irrational.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: sandorski
Even in a Anarchy consensus needs to be acheived. Without Consensus chaos rules.

A consensus on what and by whom?

What, whatever. Who, the People.

I make decisions about 'what, whatever' every day. And the only person involved in this type of 'consensus' is myself. I fail to see what you are trying to show.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,398
8,566
126
Originally posted by: Dissipate

No, what I am saying is that from the standpoint of the individual, your vote does not matter. As humans we engage in something called human action, which entails attempting to cause something to occur in the future. This is to say that human action is based on causality. Only individuals can act, there is no such thing as 'collective action.' What is thougt of as collective action is merely just the sum of individual actions.

So, from an individual's standpoint the question is: do I vote or not vote? And if I vote what are the reasons for doing so? Well, if your reason to vote is to change some tangible outcome in the future, then that is ridiculous because your vote will most certainly not change the outcome of the election. Therefore, if one is to vote, one must vote for some other reason. A lot of reasons that I have heard are along the lines of 'civic duty,' and 'promoting democracy.' Rarely do I hear someone say: 'You should vote, because there is a very good chance that your vote could decide the election.' Those who cite the case in Florida simply haven't calculated their probabilities or believe that these very low probabilities are actually relatively good ones.

If your reason for voting is not based on producing a tangible result in the future, then it is much more likely that your reason for voting is based on a quasi-religious belief in democratic ideals. It is just like during a religious ceremony, people engaged in the ceremony might not expect anything tangible result to result from the ceremony, but to them it has other non-tangible significance.

From an objective results oriented standpoint, voting is irrational.

and of course, if everyone bought into your theory, then one vote certainly would count. so, obviously, where only one person votes and everyone else stays home because, well, voting doesn't count so isn't rational, one vote does count and so staying home is irrational.

boy it sure is fun to argue extremes.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,709
6,266
126
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: sandorski
Even in a Anarchy consensus needs to be acheived. Without Consensus chaos rules.

A consensus on what and by whom?

What, whatever. Who, the People.

I make decisions about 'what, whatever' every day. And the only person involved in this type of 'consensus' is myself. I fail to see what you are trying to show.

So let's imagine. Imagine that a Anarchist Utopia is acheived. You are a responsible person. You are relatively quiet as to not bother the neighbours, you have properly plumbed your home with water and sewage, and you take care of your yard so it looks nice.

Most people in the neighbourhood are similar, but there are some that don't. Bob practices his shooting at 4 am in his backyard. Jim has rusted out cars and other junk strewn all over his back and front yard. Steve didn't bother with a septic tank, he pipes all his sewage onto his front yard where it slowly oozes into the street.

So what do you do?
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,584
81
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: sandorski
Even in a Anarchy consensus needs to be acheived. Without Consensus chaos rules.

A consensus on what and by whom?
well, the concensus to anarchy for one. DOH!, theres that Catch 22 again.

So if you are truly an anarchist, you believe theres nothing wrong with what other people do or think, and your not going to waste your time trying to convince someone else to think like you, but wait, thats exactly what you are doing.