Wreckem, now where did you get that silly information from 
? Fitzgerald was investigating potential crimes. Libby lied to him. That's a crime.
? Fitzgerald was investigating potential crimes. Libby lied to him. That's a crime.On one side of the scale, Clinton lying under oath about a social misdemeanor, on the other, using the power of the White House outing an undercover agent for political revenge. Kinda like a feather against a ten pound weight. If that comparison does not show one Hellofa double standard, what does?
I don't know *any* democrats who whined about Clinton being taken to task, i.e., the legal system going after him for lying to the extent he was guilty.
*Impeaching* him in a partisan act that even many of the republicans who chose to do it admitted was 'revenge for Watergate', as if holding Nixon accountable for real abuse of power and lying in a victory for our nation's constitution working was something that needed 'revenge' is another matter.
What we do have are righties who lie about the democrats, as in this thread.
What we also have are righties who are being hypocritical condemning Clinton while defending Libby even while they call democrats hypocrites.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
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I remember plenty of Democrats who whined about the Clinton affair being unfair and that Starr was merely going after him until they could find something, anything to nail him with. For the record, back in the day, I defended Clinton because that's just the kind of rabid "righty" I am. :roll:
So let's not try to revise history over this, please. The left are just as bad now trying their best to bring down Bush and anyone else in the admin. ("Turdblossom" "Frogmarch Rove" anyone?) Don't pretend the left aren't just as hypocritical as the right that you hold in such contempt.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
All "he said she said". This issue has been so mudded I defy anyone to show "proof" that would stand up in court either way. That included Novacks comments.
You are trying to compare apples and rocks.
Saying that the left is trying to bring down Bush any way possible for apparent violations of US and international law, complete disregard to our constitutional rights and human life is comparable to lying about a consensual sexual act between two adults that was irrelevant to a case in which it was brought up in the first place.
That is NOT being hypocritical. That is having common sense and being able to prioritize what is and is not a valid action to be outraged over.
You might as well argue that anyone that feels we should devote more police resources to solving a murder than prosecuting a jaywalker is being hypocritical. You are that far out there on this rant/topic as well.
The whole plame outing was a result of dishonest behavior on both sides. Plame used her position and influence within the CIA to push a political agenda, which was extremely inappropriate. Wilson did NOT go on that trip for fact finding...PERIOD. The Bush admin retaliated by outing her. Once again, all you people go to your political corners and take up for your side like the sheep you are. None of you know the facts in this case, so right now your opinions are all the result of a public spin campaign by both sides and political bias.
Chicken, bush is the one who calls rove turdblossom. And bush's daddy was the one who said people who betray our intelligence agents are the worst sorts of traitors.
Mxyplx, where did you get that information from? Wilson, from all accounts, was a republican BEFORE his wife was stabbed in the back. Plame's superiors have said she did NOT influence the decision. Not every conflict or problem involves equally culpable parties.
Mxyplx, where did you get that information from? Wilson, from all accounts, was a republican BEFORE his wife was stabbed in the back. Plame's superiors have said she did NOT influence the decision. Not every conflict or problem involves equally culpable parties.
umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
- 13,816
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Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
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In a sense that assessment is correct. The lone issue that stood up in court is Libby's guilt. Other than that, everything has become so muddled with deliberately constructed defense and counter defenses that getting at the truth through the spin is presently almost impossible.
But we somewhat have to realize that what reignited what amounts to beating a dead horse is
Novak's attempt to rehabilitate himself in the public mind. Now we have Novaks' version of the truth and not Wilson's rebuttal. Even failing a Wilson rebuttal, I somewhat say be it resolved
Novak is and remains a sleezy traitor to this country who should never be forgiven.
The real implied question is will the truth be hidden forever or will some set of future events finally cause the truth to surface. We have to remember that the same set of slippery characters are engaged in all kinds of other suspected criminal acts totally unrelated to Plame gate. Once the dems get at buried executive records now locked up by GWB, its well within the bounds of finite chance that the suspected will rise to proven and the rats will be on the run. As part of the resultant plea bargain agreements and general merriment, some better truth regarding the whole conspiracy to out a CIA agent may also come out.
Until then I retain a very dim opinion of Novak.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
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Exactly. Plame/Wilson were engaging in a political. There have been at least two books out from CIA insiders about the Bush/anti-Bush camps within the CIA and the ideological battles between them. There is not a monolithic mindset within the CIA, nor is it filled to the brim with neocon automatons. It's apparent what side Valerie and Joe were on as well. The Wilsons tried to pull a fast one and Bush retaliated. It was tit for tat. So either both sides were wrong for doing what they did, or both sides were in engaging in standard partisan warfare. One side cannot be singled out in this matter except by those who are blindly partisan.
It was george tenet that asked for the investigation chickenfeed. And again, Wilson was a REPUBLICAN.
There is no factual basis for anything you've said. I wonder where you get this nonsense from.
The CIA has explicitly denied that Plame used her position and influence to get her husband, Joseph Wilson assigned to investigating whether Saddam was trying to acquire uranium in Niger. However, Wilson was eminently qualified for the job, including his knowledge and experience in the region and all necessary security clearances, and he was well known within the intelligence community, which made a very logical choice.
PROOF, or STFU!
You seem to think that Robert Novack has credibility. I'll say one thing - his credibility is roughly the same as yours . . . .
Zero
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
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Even if we take what TLC as factual---namely---The Wilsons tried to pull a fast one and Bush retaliated. It was tit for tat. So either both sides were wrong for doing what they did, or both sides were in engaging in standard partisan warfare. One side cannot be singled out in this matter except by those who are blindly partisan.
It has always seemed to me that one has to be morally bankrupt in the extreme and totally lacking in any sense to allow tit for tat partisan games to escalate to the level of outing a CIA agent. And we must identify why many of those involved escaped jail. And that was because the laws designed to punish those who engaged in that behavior were extremely sloppily written, partly because the framers of the law somewhat could not conceive that someone within our own government would ever allow themselves to be the ones that DELIBERATELY outed a CIA agent. And hence a provision was added to the law to protect someone who did it accidentally.
But it was nice to see TLC confirm my opinion that this whole sordid affair was motivated by revenge and at the same level that might be used by the Mafia. It would be fair by Mafia rules to kill a family member of a witness that just happened to be an eye witness to some act of Mafia criminality. Thereby sending the message to the witness that they may be protected by the government and laws but if they are honest, the Mafia will always find other ways to hurt and intimidate.
If GWB&co. did not believe what Wilson said was true, would not the high road have been in discrediting what Wilson said? And what does Wilson's wife have to do with that? Especially since any Valarie Plame Joe Wilson conspiracy carries so little credible weight.
It has always seemed to me that one has to be morally bankrupt in the extreme and totally lacking in any sense to allow tit for tat partisan games to escalate to the level of outing a CIA agent. And we must identify why many of those involved escaped jail. And that was because the laws designed to punish those who engaged in that behavior were extremely sloppily written, partly because the framers of the law somewhat could not conceive that someone within our own government would ever allow themselves to be the ones that DELIBERATELY outed a CIA agent. And hence a provision was added to the law to protect someone who did it accidentally.
But it was nice to see TLC confirm my opinion that this whole sordid affair was motivated by revenge and at the same level that might be used by the Mafia. It would be fair by Mafia rules to kill a family member of a witness that just happened to be an eye witness to some act of Mafia criminality. Thereby sending the message to the witness that they may be protected by the government and laws but if they are honest, the Mafia will always find other ways to hurt and intimidate.
If GWB&co. did not believe what Wilson said was true, would not the high road have been in discrediting what Wilson said? And what does Wilson's wife have to do with that? Especially since any Valarie Plame Joe Wilson conspiracy carries so little credible weight.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
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Puhleeze.
If you followed the Plame affair at all and took off your partisan spectacles you'd know the purpose of the Novak article was not to "out" Plame but to discredit Wilson's own article about what he claimed he didn't find in Africa. The only reason Plame was mentioned at all was to demonstrate the nepotism involved in Wilson being selected and sent on the mission in the first place; nepotism Wilson denied, which was just one of his lies concerning the whole affair.
Besides that, it's like two crime families here each trying to put out a hit on the other, yet you try to play it off as if Plame and Wilson were some poor innocent souls at the mercy of some big crime boss for a minor transgression. Give me a break. Talk about morally bankrupt. Jeezuz. Stop being so blindly one-sided.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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Sorry TLC, even the CIA does not agree with you. There is and remains the fact that you do not out a CIA agent. Period end of story. You are using circular reasoning to advance a dubious argument. And outing a CIA agent to demonstrate a DUBIOUS partisan argument still does not demonstrate a single thing.
What Wilson said is or is not true on the face of the Statement. No matter how you cut it its still revenge, nothing but revenge, and can only demonstrate the extreme moral bankruptcy of GWB&co. Attacking Joe Wilson does nothing to elevate the deeds of GWB&co.
What Wilson said is or is not true on the face of the Statement. No matter how you cut it its still revenge, nothing but revenge, and can only demonstrate the extreme moral bankruptcy of GWB&co. Attacking Joe Wilson does nothing to elevate the deeds of GWB&co.
You mean, what he ACTUALLY didn't find in Africa... specifically any evidence that Saddam was trying to acquire yellow cake uranium. Strangely, the intelligence communities from most other European nations who looked into the matter arrived at the same conclusion, and several sources warned the Bushwhackos that the source for those stories was highly unreliable.
Which makes outing her that much more wrong and that much more criminal. The Bushwhackos sacraficed Plame's value a CIA asset and risked unmasking every other CIA operative and information source she may have encountered, all for political gamesmanship.
In case you don't understand the gravity of that:
Bushwhackos are criminals of the worst kind. I believe they should be tried for TREASON for outing Valerie Plame and for shredding the rights guaranteed to all Americans under the U.S. Constitution. I believe they should be tried for the murder of every American who has died in their war of LIES in Iraq. As of 10/6/07 11:24 pm EDT, the toll stands at 3,815.
Please do tell us what crimes were commited by Plame and Wilson. Be sure to include the body count of American deaths resulting from those crimes. :roll:
Why? Lying sycophants like you don't deserve one. No breaks for you.
Pot, meet kettle. :thumbsdown: :frown:
That's because it's exactly what happened - the right was out for political attacking far bayond anything legitimate.
The three judge panel overseeing it had two far right-wing politicized judges; the first 'independant counsel' the republicans used, despite his being a pretty partisan republican, was finding that in every charge he investigated, the Clintons were cleared without any wrongdoing. So the republicans *tossed him out* so they could be in a real hack; the pretense on which they tossed him out, Starr was guilty of as well.
The democrats were right to call it what it was. If they hadn't stumbled onto the Monica affair years and millions into the 'Whitewater investigation', they'd have had nothing on the Clintons. To be fair, there some other convictions without anything proven against the Clintons - but as far as being an investigation of the Clintons, it was a fishing expedition without any fish until Monica, so it became about Monica.
I can only go by your posts now. I used to think Bush 41 was pretty good, when he was running against Reagan. I was wrong. If you defended Clinton, you were wrong IMO.
On the other hand, if you objected to the republicans abusing the investigate process, corrupting it, and abusing the impeachment process, you were right - at that time.
No, they're not - this administration is hugely worse than not only the Clintons, but any other in memory (there's a reason that those who were involved in Watergate say that Bush is far worse than Nixon, who was so bad it was considered a victory for our constitution for him to be removed from office). There are books on the topic proving the point if you can bother to read them.
The left are not doing nearly enough to protect the public from Bush's lawbreaking. This unconstitutional 'unitary presidency' is approaching full speed, with carefully selected Supreme Court Justices to radically change our form of government. That's where you can fault the democrats.
shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
- 9,500
- 6
- 81
No, you're exactly wrong. The right-wing IMPEACHED Clinton for lying about having sex and tried to remove him from office for it.
An impartial prosecutor - not the left-wing - indicted, tried, and convicted Libby for lying under oath during an investigation with national security implications.
If you can't see a difference in these two scenarios, you're hopeless.
Wait . . . you're hopeless.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
"How is this relevant to whether or not the CIA did not want her identity revealed?"
Good question, actually. Pondering it for even a brief moment yields some irreconcilalble oddities.
(Wilson was in the State Dept, not the CIA, so it was not really his place to protest the printing of the story. IMO, that's more apropriately the CIA's business. Still, it is curious he didn't seem concerned about the so-called "leak" until after the fact. Of course, if he knew about it so did his wife (in the CIA). Why didn't she care until after the fact?)
The CIA knew the story was coming. That's incontrovertible based on evidence released to date.
So, the real question is: why didn't the CIA quash the story? One phine call to Novak's editor(s) would have stopped it immediately, it's not unusual.
That question has never been adequately answered. Any investigation needs to start there. Why did the CIA, having advance warning of the impending story, do nothing until after the fact?
Those of us who aren't partisan zealots see this for the manufactured scandel it is, and realize it evidences unwanted politization of the CIA, among other problematic things.
Fern
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
How many times do you and the rest of the lefties have to be corrected on this, Harvey?Originally posted by: Harvey
You mean, what he ACTUALLY didn't find in Africa... specifically any evidence that Saddam was trying to acquire yellow cake uranium. Strangely, the intelligence communities from most other European nations who looked into the matter arrived at the same conclusion, and several sources warned the Bushwhackos that the source for those stories was highly unreliable.
Which makes outing her that much more wrong and that much more criminal. The Bushwhackos sacraficed Plame's value a CIA asset and risked unmasking every other CIA operative and information source she may have encountered, all for political gamesmanship.
In case you don't understand the gravity of that:
Bushwhackos are criminals of the worst kind. I believe they should be tried for TREASON for outing Valerie Plame and for shredding the rights guaranteed to all Americans under the U.S. Constitution. I believe they should be tried for the murder of every American who has died in their war of LIES in Iraq. As of 10/6/07 11:24 pm EDT, the toll stands at 3,815.
Please do tell us what crimes were commited by Plame and Wilson. Be sure to include the body count of American deaths resulting from those crimes. :roll:
Why? Lying sycophants like you don't deserve one. No breaks for you.
Pot, meet kettle. :thumbsdown: :frown:
http://www.factcheck.org/bushs...s_on_iraq_uranium.html
First of all, if outing Plame was criminal then someone should have been charged for it and found guilty. Nobody was found guilty of outing Plame. NOBODY. Get that through your thick excuse for a skull. If anyone should have been guilty it should have been Armitage, but since the left didn't want to see Armitage go to jail they turned a blind eye. Apparntly lies don't mean anything and are perfectly acceptable if they can't be pinned on Bush and Co.
Secondly, the only whacko here is you with your own lies and distortions. You're so drunk on your own unhinged looney left kool-aid you couldn't separate facts from fvcks. Wilson was the real liar yet he's YOUR lair, I guess, so it's perfectly OK with you. Since you're so big on using the words lie and liar maybe you should actually find out what they mean and how the words are applied before you spew them around like some pedophile tossing candy to school kids?
Third, you don't seem to display any similar faux outrage when it comes to the FISA or SWIFT disclosure, disclosures that without a doubt had far more impact on the security of this country than releasing the name of some obscure CIA desk jockey who was relatively unimportant in the overall scheme of things (and who outed herself long before Novak did, btw). If her stupid husband hadn't been a asswipe and hadn't acted like a partisan monkey turd tosser in the first place the Plame Affair would never have happened.
Tastes, Didn't fitzgerald state "there was a crime but libby threw sand in our face"?? Aren't there several crimes that go without charges being filed? What a senseless thing to say.
Also, there was never any evidence of a uranium deal or potential deal with Niger. CIA sources confirmed this. People who keep claiming Wilson "Lied" have yet to show any evidence of it.
And FERN, the problem is that Tenet was, immediately following 9-11, in bush's corner.
Also, there was never any evidence of a uranium deal or potential deal with Niger. CIA sources confirmed this. People who keep claiming Wilson "Lied" have yet to show any evidence of it.
And FERN, the problem is that Tenet was, immediately following 9-11, in bush's corner.
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