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Robert Mugabe Overthrows Government

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Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
11,859
1,186
126
Not only does it have that insane inflation rate, but the unemployment rate is 90% or more. On the evening news earlier this week, they show what is a typical person's day: (1) Que up in line at the ATM to withdraw your daily allotment of cash (a packet of bills about two inches thick) then (2) move to another line to try to buy food. Both lines were at least a block long, and from the resigned look of the people in them, this has been the situation for a long time.

It's a crying shame the extent to which power corrupts so many leaders. Mugabe was widely viewed as a kind of African George Washington when he took power so many years ago. Now he's completely dillusional. To compound the diaster, this country has vast natural resources and what used to be one of Africa's most educated popultions.

Remember it's not just Mugabe, after all he's 84 years old and bound to kick the bucket someday. He has a whole slate of cronies that control every aspect of the government, both civil and military, many of which are corrupt, crimminal and will do anything to hang onto power.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,451
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: xeemzor
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Ah, the gift of British colonialism. It keeps on giving.
This isn't because of colonialism. It's because of a stupid, selfish, and ignorant former revolutionary whose time has come and gone.
Exactly. Almost all of Zimbabwe's problems are due to a corrupt and incompetent public leadership. Sadly, I don't see it changing even if power shifts hands.
It's a leadership that exists due to the history of colonialism.
Bingo.

Africa, like the ME was carved up with arbitrary borders defined that ignored cultural and tribal differences, along with flipping the social order on it's head in places like Rwanda with the tutsi and hutu situation. This has led to non-stop conflict for most of the last 75+ years.
Attempting to pin this one on the UK is laughable -- when they were there, Zimbabwe was one of the strongest and most stable African nations in history!

The blame for this rests squarely on a lack of term limits and the shoulders of the man who has now become their dictator.

HE has singlehandedly destroyed his nation.
Everything that happens in Africa must be viewed in the context of colonialism; the institutions and cultural policies are directly linked to that period of time and we aren't yet far enough removed to forget that.

Ok land was taken from white farmers, this is cited by you - how did those white men get that land in the first place?

 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
100
106
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: Dari
I've heard that inflation has been 200,000% for the past several years. How is that humanely possible without causing a collapse of government?
Money is essentially being turned into confetti over there.
It takes a months salary to buy a loaf of bread over there right now. Sad to see a country turn from the breadbasket of Africa to another Somalia over just a few years, all because they wanted to stick it to whitey and take away their farms.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,547
0
76
Originally posted by: ayabe
Everything that happens in Africa must be viewed in the context of colonialism; the institutions and cultural policies are directly linked to that period of time and we aren't yet far enough removed to forget that.

Ok land was taken from white farmers, this is cited by you - how did those white men get that land in the first place?
Regardless of how they received the land in the first place, it was the land being taken back by Mugabe that led to the destruction of their farming industry -- and thus their county.

So, like I said, he single-handedly crushed a once vibrant, thriving, and beautiful nation.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: xeemzor
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Ah, the gift of British colonialism. It keeps on giving.
This isn't because of colonialism. It's because of a stupid, selfish, and ignorant former revolutionary whose time has come and gone.
Exactly. Almost all of Zimbabwe's problems are due to a corrupt and incompetent public leadership. Sadly, I don't see it changing even if power shifts hands.
It's a leadership that exists due to the history of colonialism.
Bingo.

Africa, like the ME was carved up with arbitrary borders defined that ignored cultural and tribal differences, along with flipping the social order on it's head in places like Rwanda with the tutsi and hutu situation. This has led to non-stop conflict for most of the last 75+ years.
Attempting to pin this one on the UK is laughable -- when they were there, Zimbabwe was one of the strongest and most stable African nations in history!

The blame for this rests squarely on a lack of term limits and the shoulders of the man who has now become their dictator.

HE has singlehandedly destroyed his nation.
Everything that happens in Africa must be viewed in the context of colonialism; the institutions and cultural policies are directly linked to that period of time and we aren't yet far enough removed to forget that.

Ok land was taken from white farmers, this is cited by you - how did those white men get that land in the first place?
Regardless of how they received the land in the first place, it was the land being taken back by Mugabe that led to the destruction of their farming industry -- and thus their county.

So, like I said, he single-handedly crushed a once vibrant, thriving, and beautiful nation.
I totally agree. I mean for how long are we going to be held accountable for Africa's fuck ups? We've tried our best to do the right thing. We let Mugabe go to a Western school, get a modern, Western education, and look what he did with it.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,196
3,242
126
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: palehorse74

Ah, the gift of British colonialism. It keeps on giving.
Trimmed

I totally agree. I mean for how long are we going to be held accountable for Africa's fuck ups? We've tried our best to do the right thing. We let Mugabe go to a Western school, get a modern, Western education, and look what he did with it.
Probably until the Damage is undone.

How the White People got that Land in Zimbabwe is entirely relevant. Mugabe used that resentment within the population to gain Power, then to kick the White Farmers off the land.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
11,859
1,186
126
It's a fascinating study in contrasts to compare Zimbabwe/Rhodesia to South Africa since the seventies. Back then both were the last of the old style, colonial apartheid rules. Both extremely rich in natural resources. Both ruled with an iron fist by a tiny white minority who owned everything worth owning. South Africa is much bigger, and their black underclass may have been more militant-it certain was (and is today, to be honest) a much more violent and lawless society.

Rhodesia became indepdent first, in an essentially nonviolent poltical manner, with the start of Mugabe's rule. For quite a while it looked like a real success story-Mugabe seemed sincerely interested in democratic institutions worked with the remaining whites. South Africa continued to fester, and the fact that South Africa ended its apartheid rule without widespread violence and anarchy is a miracle I personally equate with the peaceful collapse of the Soviet Union.

Fast forward to today-South Africa is, albeit very slowly, becoming less of wild west lawless society. If AIDS doesn't tear apart their social fabric, South Africa has a chance at becoming a shining jewel-not bad when you think many outsiders considered the ANC pretty much a band of communistic terrorists intent on grabbing what they could for their own. And we all have a pretty decent idea of where Zimbabwe is today. Like I said, these two present a fascinating study for social scientists.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,324
4
0
Originally posted by: EXman
"Zim" as My African friend puts it is pretty much up S creek over the years anyone who has stood against Mugbe has either vanished had an "Accident" or just been on the working end of an AK-47.

This is a good reason against redistribution of wealth.

Mugbe has taken land from white farmers for years and given it to his supporters which are black and well not farmers. What happens... No food, just more corruption.

She and her family got out 5 years ago and her cousins just got into the states in February. Her mom had to go back to sell their hardware store which was almost worthless due to no one had anything to give her for it that had any value. She basically gave it away. Zim Rough on the small business person.

Assasination was the word that came to mind when I asked her what should happen now? :shocked:
Yeah, and I remember the threads on AT they had about the redistribution of the farms, and how many posters thought it was a great idea. Idiots.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor


I totally agree. I mean for how long are we going to be held accountable for Africa's fuck ups? We've tried our best to do the right thing. We let Mugabe go to a Western school, get a modern, Western education, and look what he did with it.
Probably until the Damage is undone.

How the White People got that Land in Zimbabwe is entirely relevant. Mugabe used that resentment within the population to gain Power, then to kick the White Farmers off the land.
Once he had power, he destroyed the infrastructure that the White population had built.
The native population that had the knowledge to support it fled along with the white population.
Necktie parties chased away everyone, not just those that the hatred was targetted to.
Therefore there was no middle class to support the system - and it failed.

Mugabe did not have the ability to recruit those that were needed to support the system or was unable to comprehend that the system was failing and need to be fixed.

 

ranmaniac

Golden Member
May 14, 2001
1,940
0
76
He should have stolen the election "legally" by having a Supreme Court to keep him in.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,451
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: ayabe
Everything that happens in Africa must be viewed in the context of colonialism; the institutions and cultural policies are directly linked to that period of time and we aren't yet far enough removed to forget that.

Ok land was taken from white farmers, this is cited by you - how did those white men get that land in the first place?
Regardless of how they received the land in the first place, it was the land being taken back by Mugabe that led to the destruction of their farming industry -- and thus their county.

So, like I said, he single-handedly crushed a once vibrant, thriving, and beautiful nation.
I'm not trying to deflect the blame from Mugabe entirely, but I believe what he was doing whether it was right or wrong ultimately was a reaction to the continued injustice of colonialism.

If you couple that with Britain's refusal to continue funding the "willing buyer, willing seller" program that's what led them to where they are today.

Whether the white farmers were successful or not is entirely irrelevant, we could go into North Korea and fix their food problems if we were running the show, but we aren't and we shouldn't be.

Cecil Rhodes of De Beers fame got this ball rolling it just took 100 years to self correct.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,423
615
126
Originally posted by: tvarad
Zimbabwe and many other similar former colonies are essentially tribal societies and force-fitting democracy on them simply does not work. The tribal instinct will take a long time to subside, certainly more than the couple of decades since these countries became independent. Heck, it took England what, 600 years after the Magna Carta was signed before parliament was able to effectively overcome the royal instinct to slap down the masses at whim?
instincts????

i think not.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
21,916
22,644
136
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: ayabe
Everything that happens in Africa must be viewed in the context of colonialism; the institutions and cultural policies are directly linked to that period of time and we aren't yet far enough removed to forget that.

Ok land was taken from white farmers, this is cited by you - how did those white men get that land in the first place?
Regardless of how they received the land in the first place, it was the land being taken back by Mugabe that led to the destruction of their farming industry -- and thus their county.

So, like I said, he single-handedly crushed a once vibrant, thriving, and beautiful nation.
I'm not trying to deflect the blame from Mugabe entirely, but I believe what he was doing whether it was right or wrong ultimately was a reaction to the continued injustice of colonialism.

If you couple that with Britain's refusal to continue funding the "willing buyer, willing seller" program that's what led them to where they are today.


Is that the policy where the UK was going to pay Zimbabwe for the white farmers land? The same program that Margret Thatcher stopped because Mugabe was just pilfering these funds to spend on his cronies instead of those in need? The problem is people are un-educated, without education who will maintain the infrastructure? without infrastructure you have no economy. Soth Africa is slowly headed that way as well, huge brain drain...
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,086
493
126
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: ayabe
Everything that happens in Africa must be viewed in the context of colonialism; the institutions and cultural policies are directly linked to that period of time and we aren't yet far enough removed to forget that.

Ok land was taken from white farmers, this is cited by you - how did those white men get that land in the first place?
Regardless of how they received the land in the first place, it was the land being taken back by Mugabe that led to the destruction of their farming industry -- and thus their county.

So, like I said, he single-handedly crushed a once vibrant, thriving, and beautiful nation.
I'm not trying to deflect the blame from Mugabe entirely, but I believe what he was doing whether it was right or wrong ultimately was a reaction to the continued injustice of colonialism.

If you couple that with Britain's refusal to continue funding the "willing buyer, willing seller" program that's what led them to where they are today.


Is that the policy where the UK was going to pay Zimbabwe for the white farmers land? The same program that Margret Thatcher stopped because Mugabe was just pilfering these funds to spend on his cronies instead of those in need? The problem is people are un-educated, without education who will maintain the infrastructure? without infrastructure you have no economy. Soth Africa is slowly headed that way as well, huge brain drain...
Like the movie idiocracy come to life.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,451
0
0
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Is that the policy where the UK was going to pay Zimbabwe for the white farmers land? The same program that Margret Thatcher stopped because Mugabe was just pilfering these funds to spend on his cronies instead of those in need? The problem is people are un-educated, without education who will maintain the infrastructure? without infrastructure you have no economy. Soth Africa is slowly headed that way as well, huge brain drain...
Thatcher started it, Blair ended it I believe. Along with the allegations that the money was being misappropriated, the British government just didn't feel like they had any further responsibility to support the descendants of white colonialists.

The bottom line is that injustice leads to injustice, this turn around was going to come sooner or later. The end result could have been a lot better of course.

It's the "they're ignorant children who need our guidance" mentality that caused this catastrophe in the first place, it created problems that didn't exist and the necessary corrections of these problems leads to even bigger problems.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,086
493
126
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Is that the policy where the UK was going to pay Zimbabwe for the white farmers land? The same program that Margret Thatcher stopped because Mugabe was just pilfering these funds to spend on his cronies instead of those in need? The problem is people are un-educated, without education who will maintain the infrastructure? without infrastructure you have no economy. Soth Africa is slowly headed that way as well, huge brain drain...
Thatcher started it, Blair ended it I believe. Along with the allegations that the money was being misappropriated, the British government just didn't feel like they had any further responsibility to support the descendants of white colonialists.

The bottom line is that injustice leads to injustice, this turn around was going to come sooner or later. The end result could have been a lot better of course.

It's the "they're ignorant children who need our guidance" mentality that caused this catastrophe in the first place, it created problems that didn't exist and the necessary corrections of these problems leads to even bigger problems.
Gee they sure proved that wrong hehe

And yes the turn around could have and should have been a lot better. But they got what they wanted. Vengeance on people plowing the fields for the years of colonialism. Now they can live or die with the consquences.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,451
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Is that the policy where the UK was going to pay Zimbabwe for the white farmers land? The same program that Margret Thatcher stopped because Mugabe was just pilfering these funds to spend on his cronies instead of those in need? The problem is people are un-educated, without education who will maintain the infrastructure? without infrastructure you have no economy. Soth Africa is slowly headed that way as well, huge brain drain...
Thatcher started it, Blair ended it I believe. Along with the allegations that the money was being misappropriated, the British government just didn't feel like they had any further responsibility to support the descendants of white colonialists.

The bottom line is that injustice leads to injustice, this turn around was going to come sooner or later. The end result could have been a lot better of course.

It's the "they're ignorant children who need our guidance" mentality that caused this catastrophe in the first place, it created problems that didn't exist and the necessary corrections of these problems leads to even bigger problems.
Gee they sure proved that wrong hehe

And yes the turn around could have and should have been a lot better. But they got what they wanted. Vengeance on people plowing the fields for the years of colonialism. Now they can live or die with the consquences.
Well it had to be done, unfortunately it occurred in the most painful manner possible.

You reap what you sow indeed, but the minority purposefully kept the majority ignorant for a long time, so I again have to lay that at the feet of the Brits. If you spend 100 years telling people that they're incapable of taking care of themselves, after a while some part of that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

To go back to the "willing buyer, willing seller" program, it wasn't the greatest but continuing the program in some modified form, perhaps with more regulation and oversight, would have allowed a more timely and peaceful transition that might have lessened the sting of this knowledge vacuum.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,547
0
76
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: palehorse74

Ah, the gift of British colonialism. It keeps on giving.
Trimmed

I totally agree. I mean for how long are we going to be held accountable for Africa's fuck ups? We've tried our best to do the right thing. We let Mugabe go to a Western school, get a modern, Western education, and look what he did with it.
Probably until the Damage is undone.

How the White People got that Land in Zimbabwe is entirely relevant. Mugabe used that resentment within the population to gain Power, then to kick the White Farmers off the land....which is what led to his entire country collapsing into ruin
fixed.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,086
493
126
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Is that the policy where the UK was going to pay Zimbabwe for the white farmers land? The same program that Margret Thatcher stopped because Mugabe was just pilfering these funds to spend on his cronies instead of those in need? The problem is people are un-educated, without education who will maintain the infrastructure? without infrastructure you have no economy. Soth Africa is slowly headed that way as well, huge brain drain...
Thatcher started it, Blair ended it I believe. Along with the allegations that the money was being misappropriated, the British government just didn't feel like they had any further responsibility to support the descendants of white colonialists.

The bottom line is that injustice leads to injustice, this turn around was going to come sooner or later. The end result could have been a lot better of course.

It's the "they're ignorant children who need our guidance" mentality that caused this catastrophe in the first place, it created problems that didn't exist and the necessary corrections of these problems leads to even bigger problems.
Gee they sure proved that wrong hehe

And yes the turn around could have and should have been a lot better. But they got what they wanted. Vengeance on people plowing the fields for the years of colonialism. Now they can live or die with the consquences.
Well it had to be done, unfortunately it occurred in the most painful manner possible.

You reap what you sow indeed, but the minority purposefully kept the majority ignorant for a long time, so I again have to lay that at the feet of the Brits. If you spend 100 years telling people that they're incapable of taking care of themselves, after a while some part of that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

To go back to the "willing buyer, willing seller" program, it wasn't the greatest but continuing the program in some modified form, perhaps with more regulation and oversight, would have allowed a more timely and peaceful transition that might have lessened the sting of this knowledge vacuum.

That is sig worthy for the lefties in this country.
 

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