Roaming profiles and laptops (win2k/xp)

[edmicman]

I'm not sure if this goes here or in Software, but here it is....

I'm supposed to work on setting up roaming profiles for our (small) office network. We have a couple users who use laptops, though. How do roaming profiles work with laptops? Or don't they?

Also, can roaming profiles work interchangebly between win2k and winxp clients?

I'm on a win2k domain, if that helps. Any info or pointing in the right direction would be great! Thanks!

 

[gsellis]

Roaming profiles do not work well on roaming clients. Consider that the profile is downloaded and then uploaded back to the server on logoff. Now, the client is unplugged. If you have not deleted the locally cached profile, the system has to use a cached copy of the d/l'ed profile. You can get into profile issues now as the local is newer than the one on the profile server. And, if the laptop dials in, it will want to d/l the profile if you connect at logon. Total yuck if there is a lot in the profile.

I know NT and XP profiles are incompatible. I think that W2K and XP clients run into the same issue.

 

[edmicman]

thanks for the info. it is unlikely that the laptop users would dial back in to the network. usually it is just that they take some work home with them, work with it offline, then hook back up to the network. if I went with the roaming profiles route with them, would it re-syncronize each time they connect to the LAN at work? is it customary practice to just have mobile users use local profiles then?

I'll have to look more into the 2k/xp issue.....our big motivation is to have a central store/backup of all users' profiles. important things are supposed to be saved centrally on the network, but we're still using pop3 internet and lots of times they leave things in My Documents as well. I envision using roaming profiles to be a solution to that, at least somewhat. If profiles are stored on a central server, then that one location can be backed up easier.

 

[spyordie007]

would it re-syncronize each time they connect to the LAN at work?

Not every time they connect to the LAN; but each time they are connected to the LAN and their account is logged off.

I've just started doing this with a handful of users at our site for the exact same reason; I want to make sure we have backups of files that are stuck in "my documents" or on their desktops (as people tend to do). The other reason I'm doing this is so it will be easier for us to replace users' machines (no copying of personal data).

I havent had any problems yet, but I still have less than a dozen users using roaming profiles right now.

BTW - AFAIK 2K and XP profiles are compatable unlike some of the problems that existed with NT 4 and 2K profiles.

 

[edmicman]

Originally posted by: spyordie007

would it re-syncronize each time they connect to the LAN at work?

Not every time they connect to the LAN; but each time they are connected to the LAN and their account is logged off.

I've just started doing this with a handful of users at our site for the exact same reason; I want to make sure we have backups of files that are stuck in "my documents" or on their desktops (as people tend to do). The other reason I'm doing this is so it will be easier for us to replace users' machines (no copying of personal data).

I havent had any problems yet, but I still have less than a dozen users using roaming profiles right now.

BTW - AFAIK 2K and XP profiles are compatable unlike some of the problems that existed with NT 4 and 2K profiles.

Ahhh, cool, that's good to know. So what happens if a laptop user logs off for the day, goes home for the weekend and adds a number of new documents to his My Documents folder. When he logs back on on Monday, do those documents get erased as the profile is loaded from the server, or is it sort of just meshed together?

Actually, we're going to be upgrading from an NT4 domain to win2003 (yay!) and looking to use the opportunity to take advantage of the roaming profiles. As it is now, we've got 3 xp clients and the rest are win2k. Everybody pretty much has their own pc that is "theirs", so the profiles thing is mainly for backup purposes, but it would be cool to eventually have the flexibility to be able to bring your profile up no matter which workstation you log into.

 

[gsellis]

What we did was make it policy in the AD that My Documents was part of the user's home drive on the server. On the mobile clients, they are allowed to save the contents for offline. But that does yield some synchronization issues at times.

I forgot what the solution was with the duel profiles. I remember talking about 2 accounts during transition, but I don't remember what we did.

We find it easier to support local profiles on mobile computers. It really gets entertaining when the system is slept or hiberanated then awakened offline when the profile was connected before the undock. :frown:

Pilot and test is the best bet. Find out what works for you and meets your user/customer expectations and what does not. You may even have to show what works and does not work to set the expections where they should be.

 

[gsellis]

Oh, one other thing we did was create a local folder on the machine for 'stuff'. Told the folks they could use it all they wanted, but we only backed up My Docs on the server. That allowed an area to put stuff that was sanctioned, but it was not part of any service agreement to save it.

 

[spyordie007]

So what happens if a laptop user logs off for the day, goes home for the weekend and adds a number of new documents to his My Documents folder. When he logs back on on Monday, do those documents get erased as the profile is loaded from the server, or is it sort of just meshed together?

When they come onto the network monday morning new stuff from the server should get pulled down (which isnt much of anything) so they would still have the files on their laptop; than once they log off @ the end of the day those files would get synched up to the profile share.

It really gets entertaining when the system is slept or hiberanated then awakened offline when the profile was connected before the undock.

What problems have you had? The only thing I've noticed is the little message when logging off that the profile server could not be contacted and that your profile changes couldnt be saved; but that hasnt caused us any problems.

One problem we've had (though dont think it really fair to call a "problem") is if you have users who use multiple machines at the same time it can cause some confusion at times with items getting updated in the profile; but our department are the only ones who really do much logging on to multiple machines at any point in time so it hasnt been a big concern.

One thing to note is that you can setup a GPO for machines so that roaming profiles are not used on them; we have some training computers and I've done this with them so that users profiles arent pulled down just because we want them to use a machine for training. I've also set a GPO for our servers' OUs that does the same thing; that way when I log into them it doesnt pull my profile.

-Erik

 

[Booty]

Since there's a couple people here who have experience with it, what are the pros and cons of roaming profiles, in your opinions? Laptop issues aside, my coworker says he's seen networks using roaming profiles that suffer from performance issues... most specifically, he said users complained of login times. Is this really a problem, and if so, is it better/worse in a Win2k vs. Win2k3 domain?

I'd also be interested in what happens when a user takes their laptop off-site as well, though... are there issues with files being over-written or replaced when they re-logon to the network? I'm pretty new at the network admin thing, so I'm just trying to learn about my options to see when it makes sense to implement certain features and all that.

 

[Booty]

spyordie007 - you must have posted while I was typing my question, since it answered it in part. What kind of issues have you run into with users being logged onto multiple machines? Is that situation handled any differently in 2003 vs. 2000?

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: spyordie007
What problems have you had? The only thing I've noticed is the little message when logging off that the profile server could not be contacted and that your profile changes couldnt be saved; but that hasnt caused us any problems.

Thinking about it, it was not with profiles. It was with apps listening to ports, some PnP issues from sudden dock missing during wake-up (net connection would not re-establish on redock), and have had My Docs suddenly get to be a local thing (but I think we have had that on non-roamers too.)

 

[spyordie007]

networks using roaming profiles that suffer from performance issues

using roaming profiles will move profile information across the network rather than keeping it locally, as such it's going to make much more network traffic. Fortunetly all of my network segments are at least 100Mbps and switched so it doesnt much matter.

most specifically, he said users complained of login times.

Better clarify here. On the NT 4 clients roaming profiles are pulled down every time a user logs in and pushed up every time they log out; the larger a user's profile (the more stuff they have stored in it) the longer this process will take.

Under 2K/XP the clients will only pull down or put up files that have changed, so if there is little that has changed it wont take very long at all; if they get a new computer it will have to pull down a copy of the entire profile and this can cause delays the first time they log in.

Is this really a problem, and if so, is it better/worse in a Win2k vs. Win2k3 domain?

Actually these symptoms you've mentioned have nothing to do with the domain, it only has to do with the clients, the file server and the connecting network infrastructure. One nice advantage of using a 2K/2K3 domain is that you can use group policy to enable or disable roaming profiles for groups of computers or users (like I mentioned above).

 

[spyordie007]

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: spyordie007
What problems have you had? The only thing I've noticed is the little message when logging off that the profile server could not be contacted and that your profile changes couldnt be saved; but that hasnt caused us any problems.

Thinking about it, it was not with profiles. It was with apps listening to ports, some PnP issues from sudden dock missing during wake-up (net connection would not re-establish on redock), and have had My Docs suddenly get to be a local thing (but I think we have had that on non-roamers too.)

Yeah I've seen the same problems with some of our users who have had their palms/pocket pcs connected to a docking station or their laptop and than put them into hibernate or walked away; this is pretty much expected though since the apps really dont know what to do with the sudden lack of hardware

Keep in mind that as far as applications are concerned there is no differance between a "local" and a "roaming" profile. If your user account has a roaming profile than when you log in to the machine the profile is pulled down from your server and you are working entirely locally; it isnt until you log off that your machine again reconnects to the profile server to save up your changes. During the entire duration of your session the profile share isnt even contacted.

The solution in these cases is to ensure the apps arent talking to the hardware when it's disconnected.

What kind of issues have you run into with users being logged onto multiple machines?

Just that it can be annoying, if I want a file in my documents to get from one machine to the other I have to first log off on the one machine than log on on the other machine. Remember the clients only pull the profiles down on the log in and dont sync their changes up to the server until you log off. I've got some machines that it'll be a month before I log off/on and their changes would get pushed up/down; this is just for me though since I'm really not the norm. I find that about 99% of our users will log on/off of their machine daily.

-Erik

 

[Booty]

Okay, well that clarifies some things... what about any issues with users not remembering to logoff and ending up logged onto multiple machines? Any problems there?

I take it from your reply that the laptop thing isn't going to be an issue, that all the files will be updated appropriatedly on both sides. Any other concerns with laptops? I'm really thinking about trying this out in the very near future...

This last question is kinda out curiosity... might be a little dumb, but who cares, right? Anyway - since your desktop is part of your profile, what happens to little things like shortcuts to local apps... say a user has a shortcut to an app installed on one machine, then logs onto another machine that doesn't have that app installed. Does the shortcut remain and just not work, or is it removed, and if it's removed will it be gone the next time that user logs onto the original machine? I'm just trying to cover all my bases so that I don't end up with a bunch of confused users if we decide to go ahead and give this thing a shot.

 

[Booty]

Oh, and you said it's on the client side... so would 2k and XP boxes be fine using roaming profiles on an NT4 server? Just curious... not really an issue I see myself having to deal with anytime soon.

Also, win98 machines are going to have issues then, right? So the solution there would basically be to use AD to disable roaming profiles for those boxes, correct? Like I said, I'm a newbie to the admin world...

 

[Booty]

Originally posted by: spyordie007

What kind of issues have you run into with users being logged onto multiple machines?

Just that it can be annoying, if I want a file in my documents to get from one machine to the other I have to first log off on the one machine than log on on the other machine. Remember the clients only pull the profiles down on the log in and dont sync their changes up to the server until you log off. I've got some machines that it'll be a month before I log off/on and their changes would get pushed up/down; this is just for me though since I'm really not the norm. I find that about 99% of our users will log on/off of their machine daily.

So in that case it'd be better for the user to drop the file in their user directory on the server, which is what we have them do now, yes?

 

[spyordie007]

what about any issues with users not remembering to logoff and ending up logged onto multiple machines? Any problems there?

Basically just the same as I had mentioned above, if they made a change on the first machine and than never logged of it wont appear when they log onto the 2nd machine.

say a user has a shortcut to an app installed on one machine, then logs onto another machine that doesn't have that app installed.

Than they have a shortcut that doesnt work; the application would have to be installed on that machine using the same path for them to use it.

so would 2k and XP boxes be fine using roaming profiles on an NT4 server?

Sure you bet. I *think* (assuming proper privilages) roaming profiles could even be stored on a linux or NAS file server.

Also, win98 machines are going to have issues then, right? So the solution there would basically be to use AD to disable roaming profiles for those boxes, correct? Like I said, I'm a newbie to the admin world...

Well the win98 machines are going to have issues regardless; I think you can use them with Win 98 but certainly wouldnt want to (anyone would be able to access the profile of any other user who had logged into that machine). Also I'm not sure about using a GPO to disable roaming profiles on them, I dont know if they would pay attention to the GPO setting or not.

-Erik

 

[spyordie007]

So in that case it'd be better for the user to drop the file in their user directory on the server, which is what we have them do now, yes?

Assuming they are attached to the network and can handle that complex usage task they would probably be better off dropping the file onto the file share