Right to Work Vs. Forced Union

[Steeplerot]

If the culture of that particular place doesn't fit you, you always have the option of finding something better..

And you can always quit if you do not want representation. In the end this argument helps the problem none and both sides still have to deal with the reality of situations which you state you have no knowledge of nor does anyone you know. This is odd, seeing as there are millions who are Union in the USA.

Cut the bullshit.

 

[halik]

And you can always quit if you do not want representation. In the end this argument helps the problem none and both sides still have to deal with the reality of situations which you state you have no knowledge of nor does anyone you know. This is odd, seeing as there are millions who are Union in the USA.

Cut the bullshit.

Well I should have the option of deciding whether I want union representation or not - I like to work things on my own, you seem to enjoy the union representation. It's all fine and dandy if you have the choice of doing either. If neither one work for you, then you have the option of finding something better.

I have no experience of having issues that I couldn't work out by talking to the person or hr, especially today with OHSA and lawyers advertising representation on tv.

I do have experience dealing with AFL-CIO affiliates and the absurdity of their behavior however. I can't really comment on how well the union representation works for for those guys, but it seems to produce attitudes that are not inline with the goals of the organization they work for.

 

[Steeplerot]

If neither one work for you, then you have the option of finding something better.

I agree on that, choice is good, the misrepresentation of the issue on certain sides is annoying though.

and lawyers advertising representation on tv...

I do not see this trend as good for corporations or the people, only lawyers.

 

[halik]

I agree on that, choice is good, the misrepresentation of the issue on certain sides is annoying though.



I do not see this trend as good for corporations or the people, only lawyers.

Eh probably good for the people and the layers. The latter keeps 20-40% of the settlement, you keep the rest and the company in question gets the message.

 

[Steeplerot]

Eh probably good for the people and the layers. The latter keeps 20-40% of the settlement, you keep the rest and the company in question gets the message.

I cannot see how making lawyers even more parasitic on businesses help the "free market".

Why not negotiate with workers themselves in good faith and cut out the middle man? Because only 2 parties in this out these 3 have resources in a non-union shop. Guess which 2?

 

[ShawnD1]

Impossible? Really? I can believe it's harder, but not immpossible. In a right-to-work state they can fire you because they didn't like the color of your t-shirt. As a blue collar worker, which option would you choose?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/rubber_room_dirty_old_man_t4OA6Bw25idPYynCnVJHyO

granddaddy of the rubber room -- 13 years in the purgatory of teachers yanked from the classroom for alleged wrongdoing.

But the Department of Education can't fire Pierre, and he's stuck around long past the minimum retirement age.

Pierre was permanently removed from the classroom in 1997 after he was accused of sexually molesting a sixth-grade girl at PS 138 in Brooklyn.

But since then, Pierre has continued to receive full pay and fringe benefits, including health, pension and vacation, officials said. He pulls down $97,101 a year.

He's one of six tenured teachers that Chancellor Joel Klein has refused to return to the classroom, even though any criminal charges were dropped and DOE hearing officers let them off the hook.

Pierre has been "permanently reassigned" the longest of all.

That a pretty normal story, actually. A guy is accused of something, and the higher ups do not trust this man around children. They feel he is a threat and should not be teaching. If that was a non-union job, he would be fired. Since it's a union job, he can't be fired, so he sits around doing absolutely nothing and he gets paid for it. This is how unions work.

 

[Steeplerot]

Awesome, Unions support child molesters now. You guys never cease to amuse.

 

[ShawnD1]

Awesome, Unions support child molesters now. You guys never cease to amuse.

The thing I've never understood is why unions will stand behind people for seemingly no reason. The whole point of starting a union is so you don't get fucked around - weird hours, random schedules that can't be predicted, no assured vacation times, etc. Once unions get those basic things like wages and vacations, they start doing retarded things like protecting lazy people, protecting dangerous people, and making it impossible to fire people who really should be fired.

The mafia-like behavior is also a bit questionable. The california prison guard union is one of the strongest lobby groups for stricter jail terms. Hmmm I wonder why. People who make a living locking people up are asking for more people to be locked up.... This is a mystery only Scooby Doo can solve.

 

[pcgeek11]

I was making one of my own, pointing out the fact I myself can throw one in.

Fair enough. All anyone can really speak of is from their own experience.

Local Unions help everyone, but on a larger scale, like the private sector it becomes top heavy quick, doubly so for a supposedly democratic institution instead of a profit driven one with a simple defined goal as the corporation has.

You say this like the union isn't profit driven. I don't believe that for an instant. What does a big union chief pull down for an annual salary? I'll bet it is at least six figures.

" Filings from the Department of Labor reveal that the American Federation of Teachers has disbursed $428,284 to Weingarten. Her gross salary is $342,552, but benefits and other disbursements raise that number to almost half a million dollars. She also earned a six-figure salary when she was president of Local 2 in 2009, during which she received $202,319. Neither of these sums, by the way, include her expenses."

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Awesome, Unions support child molesters now. You guys never cease to amuse.

Well, they are supporting him. What's your argument?

 

[pcgeek11]

Well, they are supporting him. What's your argument?

He has none. Other than attacking people that do not agree with him.

 

[JD50]

Because getting fired over personal retribution of a superior or other trivial matters because someone can tends to cramp your lifestyle. It is part of the whole adult responsible working for a living thing.

Not being at the whim of someone who is in the position he is in most likely because he knows/related to someone (and is probably a slacker always looking for a fall guy) or is a power tripping a-hole.

This is the modern corrupt business world in the USA. A good amount of folks out there in that glorious utopia of the free market Conservatives want for us will screw you first chance they get for a buck in reality.

This is why I work for myself. And get shit in writing. If you are a employee of someone else having representation is just as logical as using a insurance plan. Why go on your own when the powers against you have lawyers and massive amounts of cash against you? Dumb to isolate yourself as a worker, but that is what they want.

Living in fear confirmed.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I guess I'd go union, only because I don't want to live in any of those "right to work" states.... too damn hot in the south, and I have no interest in ND, IA, or SD ... I prefer to stay near the great lakes

 

[boomerang]

The thing I've never understood is why unions will stand behind people for seemingly no reason. The whole point of starting a union is so you don't get fucked around - weird hours, random schedules that can't be predicted, no assured vacation times, etc. Once unions get those basic things like wages and vacations, they start doing retarded things like protecting lazy people, protecting dangerous people, and making it impossible to fire people who really should be fired.

The mafia-like behavior is also a bit questionable. The california prison guard union is one of the strongest lobby groups for stricter jail terms. Hmmm I wonder why. People who make a living locking people up are asking for more people to be locked up.... This is a mystery only Scooby Doo can solve.

Once the basics are established for the workers, the union starts to fear they'll be perceived as not being needed any longer. So, they start broadening the scope of their influence. Over time it gets to the point where it's totally out of control. When supervisors start telling you that the only way they'll seek discipline for an employee is if they're ordered to from above, you know that line has been crossed. I had a number of supervisors tell me that labor relations always sided with the worker and made a point to chastise them (the supervisor) in front of the employee.

Corruption becomes a big factor over time too. Union officials start making decisions based on what benefits them personally instead of focusing on the workers they represent.

 

[Jhhnn]

Once the basics are established for the workers, the union starts to fear they'll be perceived as not being needed any longer. So, they start broadening the scope of their influence. Over time it gets to the point where it's totally out of control. When supervisors start telling you that the only way they'll seek discipline for an employee is if they're ordered to from above, you know that line has been crossed. I had a number of supervisors tell me that labor relations always sided with the worker and made a point to chastise them (the supervisor) in front of the employee.

Corruption becomes a big factor over time too. Union officials start making decisions based on what benefits them personally instead of focusing on the workers they represent.

Nice fairy tale. Supervisors like to use any excuse available for doing nothing. They see it as their birthright. They became supervisors to avoid work, not to do it.

Union officials act like the management? Heh. At least they can be removed democratically, something that can't be said for management.

 

[CitizenKain]

He has none. Other than attacking people that do not agree with him.

I see a lot of suspected and accused in there. Nothing in there about actually being a child molester.

 

[Jhhnn]

I see a lot of suspected and accused in there. Nothing in there about actually being a child molester.

You don't understand- In brain dead Rightwingistan, accusations require no proof, no conviction. If somebody says you're a child molester, you are! Especially if you're a Union member!

 

[boomerang]

Nice fairy tale. Supervisors like to use any excuse available for doing nothing. They see it as their birthright. They became supervisors to avoid work, not to do it.

Union officials act like the management? Heh. At least they can be removed democratically, something that can't be said for management.

It's no fairy tale, I lived it.

As to your second paragraph, we had a union election in which the winning candidate received more votes than there were people eligible to vote in that district. The deck was stacked against the "outsider" running against the endorsed candidate. There is little if any democracy in the power structure of the union to which I belonged.

You know not of which you speak. I for one recognize that.

 

[ShawnD1]

You don't understand- In brain dead Rightwingistan, accusations require no proof, no conviction. If somebody says you're a child molester, you are! Especially if you're a Union member!

If they thought it was safe to let him teach, then he would be teaching. The administrators do not think he should be teaching, and that's why he's locked away in the "rubber room" and getting paid to do nothing.


I wish my job was cozy like that. I would jack off at my desk, not do my work, then I get moved to the rubber room where I can jack off all day and still get paid for it. Unfortunately my job is non-union, so jacking off at work and showing up late and doing a shitty job would result in me being fired. What is this? Russia? It should be absolutely impossible to fire me. That's how important I am.

 

[coreyb]

fuck unions. its very demotivating coming into work every day, doing a good job and getting the same treatment, raises, etc as a person that never comes in, slacks off and leaves you work and basically just doesnt give a fuck about their job.

grrrrrrr

 

[NetGuySC]

Years ago when I started working at a large bakery, the shop steward was trying to talk me into joining the union. When he saw that I didn't want to join, he stated "What if they try to fire you, what are you going to do?" My response to him was "If I do a good job why would they want to fire me?"

I will not knowingly buy from a unionized company if I can buy a comparable product from a non-union company.

These union jobs moving overseas just don't bother me much. Unions have been pricing themselves out of the market for years. If they want to force companies to pay a person an very inflated wage to perform a menial task, then don't expect me to shed a tear when that job moves overseas.

 

[Red Dawn]

fuck unions. its very demotivating coming into work every day, doing a good job and getting the same treatment, raises, etc as a person that never comes in, slacks off and leaves you work and basically just doesnt give a fuck about their job.

grrrrrrr

Those guys were fired when I was in the Carpenters Union.

 

[911paramedic]

After two years as a paramedic I was still making less than a UPS driver, by far. (Even baggers at grocery stores were making more.) I may be biased, but I don't see how somebody delivering a box should make more than a medic, or basic emt for that matter. No comparison IMHO.

I've never cared for unions much, even when I was in one.

 

[ShawnD1]

After two years as a paramedic I was still making less than a UPS driver, by far. (Even baggers at grocery stores were making more.) I may be biased, but I don't see how somebody delivering a box should make more than a medic, or basic emt for that matter. No comparison IMHO.

I've never cared for unions much, even when I was in one.

That's pretty fucked up, but that's the way of the world. When I was a chemist, I remember lots of places wanted people to do analytical work for $13/h. That's at a time where a non-union warehouse job would pay at least $16.

 

[rudder]

Why should they be guaranteed the same pay and benefits? You get what your employers offers you or you work elsewhere. You see that's the advantage of being in the Union, because of the agreement the Union signs with the employer members are guaranteed certain wages and benefits that the Union and the Employer agreed upon. The non Union member is on his own working that out, there's no reason why the should benefit from what the Union does. Hell if the non Union member is able to do better then that's fine.

Which in Perfect World that is all good and well. However, when unions grow so large that they can strangle a company by the balls, that is a bad thing. GM anyone? Who wouldn't want to be in a union if it was like the UAW or whatever. Not enough people buying cars? okay sit at home for 90% pay for a while. Super health insurance that the company has no way in hell of being able to pay for... sure sounds good. Drinking/drugging on the job? no problem...the company will fire you... but the union will get your job back.

Tennessee is a right to work state. One of the largest employers in our area is Nissan. over the years I have known quite a few employees there. I have never heard one talking about the bad working conditions or low pay they get. That is because they get good wages and benefits without union representation. Nissan has just as nice of recreation facilities as the UAW hall near where I live.

Recently Nissan had a downturn. Rather than lay people off they reduced everyone's hours. definitely a hit financially, but now the plant will be adding 1,300 jobs soon. meanwhile, every day I drive by a nearly shuttered GM plant that the state of Tennessee has paid hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars into over its lifetime. GM won't resume full operations unless the state of Tennessee funds the retooling or whatever is needed.