Right to Work Vs. Forced Union

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Right to Work Vs. Forced Union

  • Right To Work

  • Forced Unionization


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ConstipatedVigilante

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2006
7,670
1
0
On the contrary Bucky, they are paying a fee for representation and thusly they should reap the benefits from that representation where as the Non Union Employee doesn't pay for any representation so he shouldn't reap any benefits from it what so ever.

We are talking about a Right to Work state where both Union and Non Union work side by side.
Fine, then; if a person wants to pay for representation, then they can have it. And yes, it doesn't make sense for a person who is not paying to reap the benefits. I misinterpreted your point at first; I thought you were advocating that Union workers automatically receive more benefits simply through membership that non-Union workers would not receive. That is, not through negotiation with the employer, but simply through the inherent benefits of the Union (which tend to skew benefits away from lower-level employees toward the higher level) .
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Right to work is a misnomer. It's really the right to get something for nothing- the negotiating power workers have only through collective bargaining. It also serves to reduce union resources by letting selfish dimwits act as free riders.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,034
1
81
People who still believe that unions are necessary are fearmongering morons.

The world will not end if unions were outlawed. People would not starve if union bosses could no longer extort business owners. To imply otherwise is nothing short of a conspiracy theory.

To those who believe otherwise: prove it. Show me a non-union shop that is treating its employees like garbage and still remains profitable. Show me a workplace with working conditions circa 1890.

I do not deny that unions were once justified. I simply do not believe that they are still necessary. I would like some proof that the doom-and-gloom you spout would come to pass if the burden of unions was lifted from society.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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I am pro-union as long as they are private sector and not forced and have no special protection under a law.

I think it makes sense for workers to a have a common person to be in charge of dealing with the employer to negotiate for wages, working conditions, and benefits etc

I am not for any special government protection to them and if unions make deals that put the company on the path to fiscal disaster the company should have to declare bankruptcy and renegotiate deals with the unions.

I support the right-to-work states.

This is exactly what most people think. They don't mind that workers can organize. They just don't like that the current laws basically favor unions and take away the rights of businesses to fire all union employees and rehire them back de-unionized at half the wages.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
People who still believe that unions are necessary are fearmongering morons.

The world will not end if unions were outlawed. People would not starve if union bosses could no longer extort business owners. To imply otherwise is nothing short of a conspiracy theory.

To those who believe otherwise: prove it. Show me a non-union shop that is treating its employees like garbage and still remains profitable. Show me a workplace with working conditions circa 1890.

I do not deny that unions were once justified. I simply do not believe that they are still necessary. I would like some proof that the doom-and-gloom you spout would come to pass if the burden of unions was lifted from society.
Unions outlawed?? Who the fuck are you, some kind of fucking petty little wannabe tyrant who wants to forbid peoples rights to organize?

I'd like to see you guys try to pass such a law. This country would stop dead in it's tracks if you ever tried to pull such a totalitarian stunt. The only way you'd be things back to work is by gunpoint.

Fear Mongering Morons huh? You ever work in the Building trades? You ever patrol a street at night or put out a 5 alarm fire? I bet the only time you break a sweat if when your Supervisor comes around and almost catches you surfing the Internet when you are suppose to be working.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
This is exactly what most people think. They don't mind that workers can organize. They just don't like that the current laws basically favor unions and take away the rights of businesses to fire all union employees and rehire them back de-unionized at half the wages.

Yeah if they can afford to wait a year or two before they break the Unions. Meanwhile they go out of business.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Why would unions be outlawed? They are perfectly constitutional institution. It's the added protections up and beyond that of the 1st amendment which need to be removed. If the government would have just protected the right of the people to organize we wouldn't have had the big hub bub in the first place.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
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The 'unions were once good, but are no longer necessary' argument is bullshit. Its made by people who probably haven't worked an hour of blue collar work in their lives.

When it comes to trades, non-union shops still work because the union option exists for tradesman. Contractors can't get away with treating their tradesmen like shit because they know they have the option of going to a union shop. The states themselves fill the role of a union in some ways, forcing non-union shops to pay prevailing wage to their workers on public works projects (which for many contractors is all they're getting these days). So currently, a tradesmen has it both ways when he works for a non-union shop, by not having to deal with the bureaucracy of a union while still enjoying the benefits that collective bargaining as provided.

In other jobs, where its just a straight employer-employee relationship, people are treated as animals. What laws there are, offering absolute minimum protections, are not relevant. They may as well not exist.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
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The 'unions were once good, but are no longer necessary' argument is bullshit. Its made by people who probably haven't worked an hour of blue collar work in their lives.

When it comes to trades, non-union shops still work because the union option exists for tradesman. Contractors can't get away with treating their tradesmen like shit because they know they have the option of going to a union shop. The states themselves fill the role of a union in some ways, forcing non-union shops to pay prevailing wage to their workers on public works projects (which for many contractors is all they're getting these days). So currently, a tradesmen has it both ways when he works for a non-union shop, by not having to deal with the bureaucracy of a union while still enjoying the benefits that collective bargaining as provided.

In other jobs, where its just a straight employer-employee relationship, people are treated as animals. What laws there are, offering absolute minimum protections, are not relevant. They may as well not exist.
In other words, union members get paid twice the rate to do half the work.
 

Kanalua

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
4,860
2
81
That article isn't entirely accurate. In Hawaii, state gov't workers have a state constitutional right to organize and may be forced to be a union member, but the state generally is right to work. Anyone in a job covered by the NLRA is allowed to be a Beck objector and resign membership and only have to pay dues for bargaining activity (a huge pain for Labor Unions to comply).

<---- Labor attorney in Hawaii.
 
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boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
The thread has devolved down close to the finger pointing and name calling stage as is the norm. The question is Right to Work vs. Forced Union and for that there can only be one answer and that is Right to Work. It's a big facet of what our country was founded on - freedom. Should an individual be forced to join any sort of organization to get the job they desire as a condition of their employment? The Masons? NOW? The KofC? The NRA?

People having a choice in their representation keeps the union focused on what their purpose is. It keeps them focused on representing the workers instead of becoming fat cats themselves. It makes them fully aware on a regular basis that the betterment of the workers they represent is what keeps them in business. A guaranteed stream of dues from workers with no say in the matter leads to complacency and corruption to name just a few of the vices I've seen.

I live and worked in a state that is not right to work. I worked a union job for 30 years. Thankfully after working prior for over 10 years in other jobs with no union. I saw first hand what union representation can do for workers. I saw lots of good and plenty of bad. As a tradesman I saw the closing of the gap in wages between myself as skilled and others as unskilled and I'll tell you it's demoralizing to have to put in 4 years of training and 3 years of college as a requirement for your job and then to see people putting parts in baskets getting paid within 5% of what you're making. People who in many cases are unable to even read. If you think I'm joking you need a big reality check.

It's demoralizing to have a work ethic, come into work every day you're expected to and do what's expected of you to see some of your fellow tradesmen missing days at a time, coming in hours late, being unable to be found, getting drunk and high on the job and in general breaking every rule there is on a regular consistent basis and nothing happens to them. There are no consequences for the type of behavior that would have long since gotten them fired at a non-union place of employment. It doesn't take long to realize that their portion of the work is being done by those who are willing to work. Day after day, week after week and year after year of this wears down the will of those willing to produce. It's a vicious cycle.

Oh yes, as Kanalua said, we also had the right to designate that we only pay the collective bargaining portion of dues. A simple form would take care of that. You'd literally get the shit beat out of you and most likely before that workday was over if you submitted that form. Anyone who thinks that's not true is mistaken. I got backed into a corner and threatened when I applied for a different trade after completing the training program for the one I was in. I had the right to do so, but that right was negated by the union. I was told that I didn't need to remove my application because they'd already done that for me. I was also warned of the consequences if I resubmitted it. There was mention of physical violence and my car catching on fire. Over time, the union and management, working together, can become a team - you bet. A mutual backscratching cartel with the worker pinned in the middle. Been there, done that.

I could go on and on and on.

If unions are firm believers in their worth and abilities, they should have no problems with right to work laws. Instead they want things skewed in their favor. Right to work should be the law of the land. Let them sink or swim on their own merits.

To be clear, I am thankful for the wages, benefits and yes, even working environment that the union was a big part in providing for me. I am also beyond being bitter for all the bullshit that myself and others had to put up with, some of which I've outlined here. I often felt I was working for two forms of management - company and union.

Unions needs checks and balances and right to work laws are essential for that.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Unions = scum, and nobody should ever be forced or coerced to join an organization of any kind.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
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Unions = scum, and nobody should ever be forced or coerced to join an organization of any kind.

Sweatshop employers getting away with the the barest minimum = scum, and nobody should ever be forced or coerced to work for for them.
it's America right? You can choose.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,746
6,762
126
Unions = scum, and nobody should ever be forced or coerced to join an organization of any kind.

Is it better to be forced to pay union dues that went to getting you a living wave instead of you freeloading off union negotiations, or is it better to live where all the force goes to breaking unions because they are scum.

You seem to spend an inordinate and unbalanced amount of mental effort attacking the force unions want to apply to maintain solidarity and no attention at all to the fact that historically, all the real violence and cohesion has been spent destroying unions in their infancy. I guess it's OK to murder millions of people because they want to be evil, eh?
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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I joined the union when I was a bagger/cashier in HS. It was great - for $5/week, I got paid time and a half on Sundays, 4 hours of bonus pay for working on a holiday, plus 1.5 pay on holidays that I worked. It was totally worth it, even if it only gave me 1.5 pay on Sundays - paid for itself in under 2 hours of work.

Out of curiosity, why do you think you should be paid time and a half to work on Sunday in a grocery store? Aren't they usually open on Sundays?
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
The other reason unions are evil scum is because they are heavily involved in politics. It's bad enough that you could be forced to have to pay dues to a productivity-destroying union, but in forced union states you can be forced to (indirectly) provide funding for scummy politicians and their campaigns since the unions spend a lot of their money on politics.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
I voted for right to work.

The whole concept of unions is a bit bullshit. If workers are abused and the working conditions are terrible, shouldn't that be something police and scary government agents deal with rather than unions? Example: my local laws state that work over 8 hours in one day or more than 40 hours per week must be paid a minimum of 1.5x regular pay. There's also a law saying that a guy called in to work must be paid a minimum of 3 hours. These are minimum labor standards and they apply to everyone, not just some exclusive club of lazy italians who suck at driving snow plows.

So if we have all of these great laws in place to protect workers and make sure your employer doesn't dick you around, then what do unions do? Simply put, they fuck around and waste resources. How many times have we seen transit workers go on strike on an important day like new years eve or during the superbowl? There was one time the nurses in my city went on strike. Every single one of those nurses should have been rounded up and put death in camps for pulling a stunt like that. Hurrrr I'm going to abandon my patients and let people die because I want more moneeeeeey.
Then there's the other shit like teachers going on strike and suddenly tens of thousands of kids are left at home with no supervision because those are the hours they would normally be at school. Any public service worker police, fire, ambulance, garbage man, nurse, etc should get a criminal record for striking like that.



Why would unions be outlawed? They are perfectly constitutional institution. It's the added protections up and beyond that of the 1st amendment which need to be removed. If the government would have just protected the right of the people to organize we wouldn't have had the big hub bub in the first place.
How much power does the union actually have? Say I run a factory with 100 people and my 100 people go on strike. Am I legally allowed to fire all 100 of them then put a help wanted sign for every single job that is now open? If the same guys applied, I would even give them their old job back. Those guys who jump at the chance are the guys I want back :D
 
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Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
I voted for right to work.

The whole concept of unions is a bit bullshit. If workers are abused and the working conditions are terrible, shouldn't that be something police and scary government agents deal with rather than unions? Example: my local laws state that work over 8 hours in one day or more than 40 hours per week must be paid a minimum of 1.5x regular pay. There's also a law saying that a guy called in to work must be paid a minimum of 3 hours. These are minimum labor standards and they apply to everyone, not just some exclusive club of lazy italians who suck at driving snow plows.

So if we have all of these great laws in place to protect workers and make sure your employer doesn't dick you around, then what do unions do? Simply put, they fuck around and waste resources. How many times have we seen transit workers go on strike on an important day like new years eve or during the superbowl? There was one time the nurses in my city went on strike. Every single one of those nurses should have been rounded up and put death in camps for pulling a stunt like that. Hurrrr I'm going to abandon my patients and let people die because I want more moneeeeeey.
Then there's the other shit like teachers going on strike and suddenly tens of thousands of kids are left at home with no supervision because those are the hours they would normally be at school. Any public service worker police, fire, ambulance, garbage man, nurse, etc should get a criminal record for striking like that.

Wow you're regular little Joseph Stalin aren't you
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
The other reason unions are evil scum is because they are heavily involved in politics. It's bad enough that you could be forced to have to pay dues to a productivity-destroying union, but in forced union states you can be forced to (indirectly) provide funding for scummy politicians and their campaigns since the unions spend a lot of their money on politics.

Yeah, it's a shame that Unions weren't more like corporate fatcats and stayed the hell away from politics.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
The other reason unions are evil scum is because they are heavily involved in politics. It's bad enough that you could be forced to have to pay dues to a productivity-destroying union, but in forced union states you can be forced to (indirectly) provide funding for scummy politicians and their campaigns since the unions spend a lot of their money on politics.

So what you are saying is that they are no different than any other organization.