I hope that face is the face of realization of what that woman is going through. Even if we were the most optimistic, and just assumed that Terry Schiavo retained higher order brain function, it is ironic that if Terry were truly there, her fate would be that much more horrible.
EDIT: So much for compassionate conservatives.
I'm afraid to say I really haven't been following this story close.
but the gist I get is some say there is brain activity and some say there isn't.
The husband wants to let her go and the parents don't.
Its been 15 years and her state has what deteriorated or stayed the same?
As usual our codes of ethics struggle to keep up with our tecnological advances.
Should we keep someone alive who without modern medicine would have died?
We are already doing this in many shapes and forms as people who 50 years ago would have died from some disease or malady lives are extended due to medical or technological advances.
Yet, here is an extreme case someone who has been comotose for 15 years and I assume had a living will?? (I don't know did she?)
My thoughts are first and foremost this is probably not a situation for Government to meddle in. Although Doctors play God all the time, I'm not sure I want politicians doing that as well.
And although terri's husband and parents are disagreeing I think in the case of a living will it should be honored and In the case of no living will they should sit down with a 3rd party and together and come up with a reasonable time frame for letting her go.
As it is a family matter and not a government matter.
but the gist I get is some say there is brain activity and some say there isn't.
The husband wants to let her go and the parents don't.
Its been 15 years and her state has what deteriorated or stayed the same?
As usual our codes of ethics struggle to keep up with our tecnological advances.
Should we keep someone alive who without modern medicine would have died?
We are already doing this in many shapes and forms as people who 50 years ago would have died from some disease or malady lives are extended due to medical or technological advances.
Yet, here is an extreme case someone who has been comotose for 15 years and I assume had a living will?? (I don't know did she?)
My thoughts are first and foremost this is probably not a situation for Government to meddle in. Although Doctors play God all the time, I'm not sure I want politicians doing that as well.
And although terri's husband and parents are disagreeing I think in the case of a living will it should be honored and In the case of no living will they should sit down with a 3rd party and together and come up with a reasonable time frame for letting her go.
As it is a family matter and not a government matter.
Your poll shows bias in the wording of your choices. 'Starve to death' has negative loading that has no counterpart in 'keep the feeding tube in.' Noy only is there a lack of parallelism, but the starvation language is inaccurate. Terry would have died long ago had they never inserted the feeding tube. This is an artificial situation in which heroic means have changed the balance of nature. With the ability to change the balance of nature (to play God) comes the responsibility to know when the heroic means has not had the desired effect and to cease the ineffective treatment. They didn't originally insert the feeding tube in an effort to create an artificially undead zombie, did they? So your first choice cluld just as easily be worded 'restore the balance of nature' or 'allow her to die with dignity.'
And now President Bush is rushing back to Washington so that he can help defy her wishes, ignore the "sacred bond of marriage," and spit on State's Rights.
I'm not a Bush hater, but this is a man imposing his religion to keep the empty shell of a woman alive against her will.
I'm not a Bush hater, but this is a man imposing his religion to keep the empty shell of a woman alive against her will.
judasmachine
Diamond Member
- Sep 15, 2002
- 8,515
- 3
- 81
she wouldn't actually starve to death, she'd dehydrate first.
either way i think this is a family matter and the courts and especially congress need to stay the hell out of their lives.
either way i think this is a family matter and the courts and especially congress need to stay the hell out of their lives.
Ya know.. I read all these posts that say 'it is what she wanted'... but consider this... there was NO living will. The evidence that there is to support this is the word of her husband. And it is not a claim that he made immediately. He waited SEVEN years to say that this was her desire. He got a $2million settlement for her treatment and then stopped all treatment and said she told him that she did not want to remain alive this way.
Now, from what the other side is saying is that it was under highly suspect circumstances that she lost oxygen to the brain. Some believe that she was battered and he choked her. He claims that she was anorexic. In any case, the hospital missed the chemical imbalance and paid a him $2million settlement for her treatment. Apparently, he said it was not enough and asked for more... and got another $300,000. As soon as he got the $$$ he stopped her therapy. She is not hooked up to life support. All her organs are working and they say she is alert and responsive.
There is no other living human being that can support his claim. To the contrary... everyone who knows her... friends, family, etc... all swear that she was a right to lifer. He has been living with another woman for 10yrs. has 2 kids with her. He is not the grieving husband who loves her so much that he has her best interest at heart.
For every one expert that says she will never recover, there is another that says she can .. to some degree... there are some hospital staffers that say she was improving before he got the settlement and stopped her treatment. Some say he has a life insurance policy on her, he claims he does not. I find it interesting that his girlfriend works for the insurance company that handles the account for the hospice that Shiavo wants her to die, and that Judge Greer was once on the Board at that hospice. I think it is interesting that in addition to being a nurse, he is also an insurance agent. I just think this is all interesting.
I am of two minds on this... really. One part of me does not want the government involved at all. This is now, and should remain a family matter. But the parent side of me... well, I would know if a child of mine had those wishes. I would not take the word of the husband at all cause he waited a full 7yrs for the $$$ and only THEN made this claim. And he will get NOTHING from her estate if she lives.
I have never met her, and am not a doctor. But I think that this whole thing needs looking into... closely... and she should not be starved to death in the meanwhile. It must be a horrible way to go... and it is also horrible that if... if... she is allowed to starve to death over days or weeks... her parents... how could they stand it? Yet, if they were to try to end her suffering with an injection and painless, swift death... they would be charged with murder.
Now, from what the other side is saying is that it was under highly suspect circumstances that she lost oxygen to the brain. Some believe that she was battered and he choked her. He claims that she was anorexic. In any case, the hospital missed the chemical imbalance and paid a him $2million settlement for her treatment. Apparently, he said it was not enough and asked for more... and got another $300,000. As soon as he got the $$$ he stopped her therapy. She is not hooked up to life support. All her organs are working and they say she is alert and responsive.
There is no other living human being that can support his claim. To the contrary... everyone who knows her... friends, family, etc... all swear that she was a right to lifer. He has been living with another woman for 10yrs. has 2 kids with her. He is not the grieving husband who loves her so much that he has her best interest at heart.
For every one expert that says she will never recover, there is another that says she can .. to some degree... there are some hospital staffers that say she was improving before he got the settlement and stopped her treatment. Some say he has a life insurance policy on her, he claims he does not. I find it interesting that his girlfriend works for the insurance company that handles the account for the hospice that Shiavo wants her to die, and that Judge Greer was once on the Board at that hospice. I think it is interesting that in addition to being a nurse, he is also an insurance agent. I just think this is all interesting.
I am of two minds on this... really. One part of me does not want the government involved at all. This is now, and should remain a family matter. But the parent side of me... well, I would know if a child of mine had those wishes. I would not take the word of the husband at all cause he waited a full 7yrs for the $$$ and only THEN made this claim. And he will get NOTHING from her estate if she lives.
I have never met her, and am not a doctor. But I think that this whole thing needs looking into... closely... and she should not be starved to death in the meanwhile. It must be a horrible way to go... and it is also horrible that if... if... she is allowed to starve to death over days or weeks... her parents... how could they stand it? Yet, if they were to try to end her suffering with an injection and painless, swift death... they would be charged with murder.
umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
- 13,816
- 1,126
- 126
The case has been heard and reheard 19 different times by 6 different judges now. Several of the conservative republicans by the way. Each time they have all come to the conclusion that Terri verbally expressed her desire not to be maintained in a vegetative state. Despite what you might have heard on internet to the contrary.
How many more times and how many different judges have to be presented the facts in the case before people will accept their rulings?
Have you looked at the CAT scan? Her cerebral cortex is GONE. It's a puddle of spinal fluid. There is no mind there.
The parents edited together a short video (from years of footage?) showing grunts that look vaguely like they are reactions to her parents, but no one else has been able to reproduce this. And some grilled cheese sandwiches look like the Virgin Mary, i.e. given enough days, months, years of taping the coincidencal timing of her body's reflex actions will look purposeful.
and has spent hundreds of thousands on court costs. And just turned down an offer of a $1 million bribe to ignore her wishes. He's rejected other offers of money to walk away.
Her parents in their denial say that. Her doctors and the courts disagree. The courts are fully aware of her husband's possible financial motives but have agreed with her doctors over and over again that she is in a persistent vegetative state, with no hope of recovery.
The parents edited together a short video (from years of footage?) showing grunts that look vaguely like they are reactions to her parents, but no one else has been able to reproduce this. And some grilled cheese sandwiches look like the Virgin Mary, i.e. given enough days, months, years of taping the coincidencal timing of her body's reflex actions will look purposeful.
so after five years of his wife being a vegetable he found another woman. That doesn't seem very unfaithful to me.
The courts have been looking into this closely, again and again over the years. If the parents had any credible evidence for their claims don't you think they'd have won in court? They've had an unlimited legal fund thanks to donations from religious extremists.
umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
- 13,816
- 1,126
- 126
Pay special attention to the dates involved. Michael continued providing aggressive therapy a year beyond the date of the settlement.
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf
From Page 4
It is also interesting to note that Mr. Schiavo continues to be the most regular visitor to his wife even though he is criticized for wanting to remove her life support. Dr. Gambone even noted that close attention to detail has resulted in her excellent physical condition and that Petitioner is very involved.
*** This is in the year 2000, ten years after Terri's accident, and five years after Michael moved in with the woman he still resides with. He remained her *most frequent" visitor, not her parents, not her siblings, Michael.
Page 5 (last line)
The court has reviewed the testimony of Scott Schiavo and Joan Schiavo and finds nothing contained therein to be unreliable. The court notes that neither of these witnesses appeared to have shaded his or her testimoney or even attempt to exclude unfavorable comments or points regarding those discussions. There were not impeached on cross-examination. Argument is made as to why they waited so long to step forward but their explanations are worthy of belief. The testimony of Ms. Beverly Tyler, Executive Director of Georgia Health Discoveries, clearly establishes that the expressions made by Terri Schiavo to these witnesses are those type of expressions made in those types of situations as would be expected by people in this country in that age group at that time. They (statements) reflect underlying values of independence, quality of life, not to be a burden and so forth. "Hooked to a machine" means they do not want life artificially extended when there is not hope of improvement.
Top of Page 9
There are some comments or statement made by Terri Schiavo which the court does not feel are germane to this decision. The court does not feel that statements made by her at the age of 11 or 12 years truly reflect upon her intention regarding the situation at hand. Additionally, the court does not feel that her statments directed towards others and situations involving others would have the same weight as comments or statements regarding herself if personally placed in those same situations. Into the former category the court places statments regarding Karen Ann Quinlin and the infant child of the friend of Joan Schiavo. The court finds that those statements are more reflective of what Terri Schiavo would do in a similar situation for someone else.
Statements which Terri Schiavo made which do support the relief sought by her surrogate )Petitioner/Guardian) include statements to him prompted by her grandmother being in intensive care that if she was ever a burden she would not want to live like that. additionally, statements made to Michael Schiavo which were prompted by something on television regarding people on life support that she would not want to live like that also reflect her intention in this particular situation. Also, the statements she made in the presence of Scott Schiavo at the funeral luncheon for his grandmother that "if I ever go like that just let me go. Don't leave me there. I don't want to be kept alive on a machine." and to Joan Schiavo following a television movie in which a man following an accident was in a coma to the effect that she wanted it stated in her will that she would want the tubes and everything taken out if that ever happened to her are likewise reflective of this intent. The court specifically finds that these statements are Terri Schiavo's oral declarations concerning her intention as to what she would want done under the present circumstances and the testimoney regarding such oral declarations is reliable, is creditable, and rises to the level of clear and convincing evidence to this court.
Those statements above noted contain no limitations or conditions. However, as Ms. Tyler noted when she testified as to quality of life being the primary criteria in artificial life support matters, Americans want to "try it for awhile" but they do not wish it live on it with no hope of improvement. That implicit condition has long since been satisfied in this case.
Credits to CourtTV.
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf
From Page 4
It is also interesting to note that Mr. Schiavo continues to be the most regular visitor to his wife even though he is criticized for wanting to remove her life support. Dr. Gambone even noted that close attention to detail has resulted in her excellent physical condition and that Petitioner is very involved.
*** This is in the year 2000, ten years after Terri's accident, and five years after Michael moved in with the woman he still resides with. He remained her *most frequent" visitor, not her parents, not her siblings, Michael.
Page 5 (last line)
The court has reviewed the testimony of Scott Schiavo and Joan Schiavo and finds nothing contained therein to be unreliable. The court notes that neither of these witnesses appeared to have shaded his or her testimoney or even attempt to exclude unfavorable comments or points regarding those discussions. There were not impeached on cross-examination. Argument is made as to why they waited so long to step forward but their explanations are worthy of belief. The testimony of Ms. Beverly Tyler, Executive Director of Georgia Health Discoveries, clearly establishes that the expressions made by Terri Schiavo to these witnesses are those type of expressions made in those types of situations as would be expected by people in this country in that age group at that time. They (statements) reflect underlying values of independence, quality of life, not to be a burden and so forth. "Hooked to a machine" means they do not want life artificially extended when there is not hope of improvement.
Top of Page 9
There are some comments or statement made by Terri Schiavo which the court does not feel are germane to this decision. The court does not feel that statements made by her at the age of 11 or 12 years truly reflect upon her intention regarding the situation at hand. Additionally, the court does not feel that her statments directed towards others and situations involving others would have the same weight as comments or statements regarding herself if personally placed in those same situations. Into the former category the court places statments regarding Karen Ann Quinlin and the infant child of the friend of Joan Schiavo. The court finds that those statements are more reflective of what Terri Schiavo would do in a similar situation for someone else.
Statements which Terri Schiavo made which do support the relief sought by her surrogate )Petitioner/Guardian) include statements to him prompted by her grandmother being in intensive care that if she was ever a burden she would not want to live like that. additionally, statements made to Michael Schiavo which were prompted by something on television regarding people on life support that she would not want to live like that also reflect her intention in this particular situation. Also, the statements she made in the presence of Scott Schiavo at the funeral luncheon for his grandmother that "if I ever go like that just let me go. Don't leave me there. I don't want to be kept alive on a machine." and to Joan Schiavo following a television movie in which a man following an accident was in a coma to the effect that she wanted it stated in her will that she would want the tubes and everything taken out if that ever happened to her are likewise reflective of this intent. The court specifically finds that these statements are Terri Schiavo's oral declarations concerning her intention as to what she would want done under the present circumstances and the testimoney regarding such oral declarations is reliable, is creditable, and rises to the level of clear and convincing evidence to this court.
Those statements above noted contain no limitations or conditions. However, as Ms. Tyler noted when she testified as to quality of life being the primary criteria in artificial life support matters, Americans want to "try it for awhile" but they do not wish it live on it with no hope of improvement. That implicit condition has long since been satisfied in this case.
Credits to CourtTV.
Let me know if you want to have a worthwhile discussion on this subject, troll. You can't make up for your own ignorance by throwing hate-filled messages at me. Maybe if I told you to die in a fire it would elicit a meaningful response, since this type of idiocy seems to be more on your level.
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Let me know if you want to have a worthwhile discussion on this subject, troll. You can't make up for your own ignorance by throwing hate-filled messages at me. Maybe if I told you to die in a fire it would elicit a meaningful response, since this type of idiocy seems to be more on your level.
Right, you have no coherent response to my argument, so you give me a cookie and call me a troll. Nice try CycloWizard, but I fully illustrated the entire predicament Terry is in, and you have attempted to sidestep the question.
Next time, try attempting to address the weaknesses in your argument. Calling everyone who cuts through your BS a troll won't win you any points.
C'mon CycloW, tell us how you think Terry must feel kept alive for 15 years trapped in her body.
EDIT: Didn't your mother to think of things in other people's shoes? Well obviously you couldn't do that, so I helped you along. Try being more thankful next time
Guys her cerebral cortex is LIQUEFIED. That is a huge portion of the brain, no way any personality/anything is left. She is done. Let her die in peace.
"No no no...we'll say 50 Hail Mary's a day and her brain will regenerate itself. It'll be a MIRACLE right before the rapture"
</whacko RW fundie mode off>
People are concocting all these rights for Terry. She has no rights, she has no voice. Her husband speaks for her now just like the living will she never made. I say to anyone on this thread that is screaming murder at this, do you have a living will?
You have to pose an argument if you want me to argue against it. You merely wished a horrible fate on me personally, which is what makes you a troll. Your continued idiocy simply verifies my earlier comments.Originally posted by: Taejin
Right, you have no coherent response to my argument, so you give me a cookie and call me a troll. Nice try CycloWizard, but I fully illustrated the entire predicament Terry is in, and you have attempted to sidestep the question.
Next time, try attempting to address the weaknesses in your argument. Calling everyone who cuts through your BS a troll won't win you any points.
C'mon CycloW, tell us how you think Terry must feel kept alive for 15 years trapped in her body.
EDIT: Didn't your mother to think of things in other people's shoes? Well obviously you couldn't do that, so I helped you along. Try being more thankful next time
I really doubt you want to have a science/medicine debate with me, sir.
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
You have to pose an argument if you want me to argue against it. You merely wished a horrible fate on me personally, which is what makes you a troll. Your continued idiocy simply verifies my earlier comments.Originally posted by: Taejin
Right, you have no coherent response to my argument, so you give me a cookie and call me a troll. Nice try CycloWizard, but I fully illustrated the entire predicament Terry is in, and you have attempted to sidestep the question.
Next time, try attempting to address the weaknesses in your argument. Calling everyone who cuts through your BS a troll won't win you any points.
C'mon CycloW, tell us how you think Terry must feel kept alive for 15 years trapped in her body.
EDIT: Didn't your mother to think of things in other people's shoes? Well obviously you couldn't do that, so I helped you along. Try being more thankful next time
I really doubt you want to have a science/medicine debate with me, sir.
Cyclo, I'd really like to hear your opinion on this issue. If you wanna read mine, they're in some of the other Terri threads.
As I say... I am not a doctor, and I have never seen her, so I cannot go by anything but what I hear and read. I am not thrilled about the givernment writing special laws just for this case. What I am less thrilled with is the thought that they would allow her to die over such a lengthy period of time. That just doesnt seem right. I mean, if there was an option for them to euthanize her... swiftly and painlessly... I might not be so against this... but... it just doesnt seem right.... the way she will go... but it would be murder if they euthanized he.
My opinion hasn't really been formed yet as I'm not aware of the medical evidence. Every source I go to has a completely different take on the situation. I can give you the general-case guidelines that I would support, but I don't have time right now (a meeting for work on Sunday? :x).
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